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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theft

1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2 obsolete : something stolen

No, his/her point is correct, selling the phone is theft.

There have been an army of FB's saying that the acquisition was theft, which is what I was refuting, but Laguna thought it would be cool to impose his/her own reality on what I've been typing.
 
The finder sold something that wasn't his, even though he knew the identity of the owner. That is theft.

Would you be able to quote the relevant definition of theft that's applicable here? I would be interested to see if it's anything like the English law definition. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, to the extent that there is a requirement to prove dishonesty to show theft then lost property cases like this one are not as clear cut as I think you imagine them to be.
 
Here in the UK, it is a crime to keep something you find (known as theft by finding), and reading what others have said on this and similar threads, it appears to be the same in the USA. In fact, there was a high profile case a couple of months ago where someone found a (winning) lottery ticket and was arrested when they tried to claim on it.
Whether you think Gizmodo did the right thing or not in feeding the rumour frenzy, I think it's pretty clear that crimes have been committed...
 
English Law of Mislaid Property

What is the relevant definition of theft here? I'm an English law lawyer so can only comment if English law applied here - I agree that if he had sold it it would satisfy the 'intention to permanently deprive' element of the English law definition of theft (which I understand is also relevant to the case in hand). Selling it to someone else is as clear as you can get that you yourself intend to permanently deprive the rightful owner of their property - regardless of whether the person you sold it to made assurances to you that they will return it to the rightful owner.

What's the dishonesty requirement under relevant law? Under English law we need to show dishonest appropriation - which is where lost property cases like this sometimes fall down because it turns on what efforts were made to return the lost property (which seem to be where the majority of arguments on this thread have focussed). I know under English law you can leave lost property with a Police station and go back for it if it has remained unclaimed for a few months - from which point onwards you can do as you please with it including selling it. No theft because there was no dishonest appropriation.

If the laws applicable to this prototype iPhone are equivalent then it is not as clear a case of theft as some on here would like us to believe it is.


Vogue - Similar law in California and most of the rest of the U.S. States. You simply cannot take found property - especially personal property like this that is clearly mislaid or lost - and merely appropriate it for your own needs. There needs to be a critical effort to either locate the owner (which the "finder" knew here because he opened up the owner's facebook page!) or deposit with the proprietor of the premises or the police for a period of months, after which it can become yours if unclaimed. In the instant case, a proper police report, and notice to the bar, or simply handing it to the bar owner, would have indisputably reconnected the owner with his property in a matter of minutes. Under English common law, the iPhone here would actually be "mislaid" property, not "lost" property and the finder would have an obligation to turn the property over to the proprietor of the premises for a period of time. California has enacted in its penal code statutes regarding the actions of both the finder and Gizmodo - in both cases the actors violated the statute. In addition, because the amount at issue (both in value of the item and in its "sales" price) were more than $400, both crimes are classified as a felonies instead of misdemeanors.
 
Not only did they buy stolen property, that was their intention. No reasonable person would expect Apple to sell a prototype of one of their devices for $5000. Yet that is exactly what Gizmodo was hoping it was paying for.

Then the founder goes and brags on twitter about how that is journalism and he's willing to pay. Which frankly makes Gizmodo look like a two-bit operation. No professional standards and a founder acting like a clown on twitter. Hell if you're gonna use some shady methods to get info don't go screaming "look what I did, I'm so smart!" :D
 
Good Lord... only in the USA can people get sued for finding a phone in the bar...
Even more pathetic is that those bureaucrats at the Daily Finance seriously must be bored or fed up with life to even write a serious article about law suits against a person who found a phone and even tried to return it.

Lets face it, 99.999% of us would have kept the phone if they knew it was the iPhone 4G.
 
Wait... can we rewind to one glaringly obvious fact:

Does this phone look identical to any iPhone currently on the market anywhere in the world?

NO.

It is either a knockoff or a prototype.

Knockoff... illegal.

Prototype... Sorry, not yours to have.

Either way, Gizmodo blatantly overlooked their responsibilities. It's not like they found some random iPhone 3G or 2G, ladies and gentlemen. They couldn't have assumed "oh, this is just some guy's phone, it can't be stolen."

They had to be aware that this was either a knockoff or a prototype... a very good probability that it wasn't legitimate property for the finder to sell.

Also weakening their cockamamie defense: Remind me again what business is Gizmodo in? YEP. That's right... they're part of the tech rumor machine. They're in the business of actively looking for any delicious morsel of advance news they can find. But I don't want to go off the rails here on how gossip + first to publish + 24 hour news cycle != journalism...

People engaged in legitimate journalism that happens to be online, including me, have to suffer for the repeated screw-ups of unscrupulous idiots like Gizmodo's staff.

Now, if Gizmodo really are too stupid to know that they were potentially looking at a prototype, then they're too stupid to be in the publishing business. But I suspect the fact that they paid $5000 for this phone is pretty hard evidence they knew EXACTLY what they were looking at, and it wasn't theirs to buy.

You don't pay MORE for a knockoff... that's the idea.
 
Wow, only in America could we endlessly split hairs on the legality of this entire event. Unbelievable.

Guy finds phone. Finds name of owner of phone on phone's Facebook app. Knowingly sells it to someone else who is not said owner.

Crime committed. Guilty as charged. Case closed.

It's not this difficult, people, regardless of what the ever-lurking trolls want you to think.
Actually its quite different from that. Its much worse. Your key mistake is "Guy finds phone". You can't find something thats not lost. Legally a phone on the floor is lost (the owner didn't put it there and probably doesn't know its there). A phone on a barstool is misplaced (owner put it there and forgot it and will probably come back for it). This makes a huge difference in this case as lost property is not in anyones possession but misplaced property is in the possession of the bar. When the thief picked it up and put it in his pocket he was taking it from possession from the bar without its permission. That is theft. There is no out for him if he made an effort to find the owner. Its not lost property. It is the same as if he had taken it from the shelf of a store. He committed a crime the second he walked out of the bar.

Even if he had taken it to the police as required by CA law and waited 90 days he could not claim ownership of the device. Misplaced property can only be claimed by the original owner or the owner of the property where it was left.
 
Then you are flailing at a strawman and looking foolish in the process (and neglecting your schoolwork, of which you are in dire need).

I'll be sure to let my wife know how much you've enriched my life by heading to my Ignore list. Your nonsensical mutterings took this thread off the rails and into the next county about 200 comments ago.

No no, if you would have actually been reading the thread, you would have seen that I said it was debatable based on whether you could convince 12 people beyond a reasonable doubt that he made a reasonable effort that a reasonable person would make. God forbid I understand the reasonable person standard that gets applied in nearly every jurisdiction in the country. I never once touched the sale.

You just felt the need to jump in at a random point with your Internet tough guy persona. Shame you have to get your pokes online and not..... ehh I'll leave it there. I'd hate to waste a 98th percentile LSAT on a discussion with someone who clearly doesn't get the law.
 
As if the person working at the 1800-MY-APPLE would be expected to know anything about a secret missing iPhone, or have access to call up Apple's research department to check up on it.

You do the same as any descent person finding something like that: You turn it in to the proprietor/business it was discovered in, knowing that the person who lost is will eventual figure out where they misplaced it, and call to see if it has been turned in.

I really hope there are some criminal charges filed, particularly against Gizmodo. You have to set an example for what actions are acceptable, and what actions are not. Knowingly buying stolen or lost property and subsequently dissecting and disseminating proprietary technology and trade secrets on a global scale is undeniably wrong, and harmful.
 
At this point I hope someone gets back at Gizmodo in some way or another regardless of the legality of the situation. They have been beyond obnoxious with their milking of this story. Every day they have posted an article essentially about how they are awesome for getting the phone and defeating Apple's security...even though all they did was get lucky and buy a story.
 
The government has no position in this matter, hence they can't take criminal action.

What?

Multiple crimes were committed. Crimes the government can prosecute for... This is not only a civil matter, or really primarily a civil matter. At this point the biggest issues are criminal ones, completely in the wheelhouse of the government.

If someone steals my car, does the government have no standing to prosecute the thief?

Hi,

How does it work when a pawn shop buys an item and it is found to be stolen? Do pawn shops get sued after the item has been returned to its owner?

I'm not being sarcastic.

s.

Depends on the local laws, but if you watch that show pawn stars, they have to hold all merchandise they buy for 30 days so the police can check it for stolen property.

Pawn shops can be punished for knowingly purchasing stolen property, which is clearly what Gizmodo did here. A legitimate pawn shop would not have touched that prototype with a 10 foot pole.
 
So let me get this straight...

Guy finds a phone.
Guy screws around with it instead of giving to bar staff, because cell phones, including what appears to be an iPhone--which sells in the tens of millions--are so rare and fascinating he has to investigate it.
Guy decides not to contact owner, whose name he discovers while playing around.
Guy tries to sell phone for big bucks.
Guy calls Gizmodo and offers to sell them this regular ol' iPhone he found.
Gizmodo: "Sure, we need another cell around here, so we'll give you 5K.", which even we fanboys have to admit is a price premium for a gently used Apple product.
Gizmodo: "Whoah! We didn't know it was anything but a regular ol' cell phone," even though it had an Apple logo on it and an Apple splash screen came up, and we paid 5 large for it. Completely caught us off guard."

OK, then. Sure. Good luck with that. It's not "IF", it's just a question of WHAT Apple chooses to do to them. Very sleazy on both the finder and Gizmodo.

And for those who think it's some sort of viral marketing by Apple: uh huh. Because no one ever knows about their product releases--no media coverage, no lines at the store, no...forums or rumor sites. They never would schedule a new phone in June.:rolleyes: Viral marketing is when you casually / not quite covertly let someone observe something, or let them know you have something; it's definitely NOT allowing them to literally dissect an unannounced product, months before release.
 
Good Lord... only in the USA can people get sued for finding a phone in the bar...
Even more pathetic is that those bureaucrats at the Daily Finance seriously must be bored or fed up with life to even write a serious article about law suits against a person who found a phone and even tried to return it.

Lets face it, 99.999% of us would have kept the phone if they knew it was the iPhone 4G.

it's certainly not only in the US - in the UK, a student found a phone in a bar and when he took it to the Police station to hand it in, he got arrested for Theft By Finding (as it had been reported lost) :eek:
He didn't get charged in the end as the complainant withdrew their complaint, but he had a pretty scary time, by all accounts: see here
 
this has certainly cost apple at least £450 from me...

I was going to get an iPhone 3GS but resisted once the news of the features and spec of the new iPhone were leaked.
 
Wow, this is one of the worst threads I've ever tried to read on this site, possibly on any site. I had to stop even skimming through messages about page 8. Unbelievable how ignorant and mean spirited the fanbois can get. Most of the comments here are more worthy of a Gawker comment thread than MacRumors.

It's pretty obvious that most of the people with an opinion of the law here got their legal education watching Law & Order or from some cheesy John Grisham novel. What a joke.
:eek:
 
finders, keepers...

i don't understand why everyone seems to want to blame the "finder" and gizmodo. this phone was "lost" by someone who didn't take care of a product he knew to be valuable to the media, hence camouflaging its true identity. if anyone is to blame here, it is apple for allowing it into the hands of an irresponsible person who chose to go drinking and forget a very valuable piece of equipment. if you fail to protect your valuables, you are the main one to blame. are the “finder” and gizmodo without blame? no. but apple must look at itself before pointing fingers elsewhere.

and i do find it very ironic that everyone on this site is angry at the “finder” and gizmodo. this site is called macRUMORS. you come here to find out information that has not been officially released to the public, and then get angry that someone provided the leaked information to you? seems a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?
 
Good Lord... only in the USA can people get sued for finding a phone in the bar...
Even more pathetic is that those bureaucrats at the Daily Finance seriously must be bored or fed up with life to even write a serious article about law suits against a person who found a phone and even tried to return it.

Lets face it, 99.999% of us would have kept the phone if they knew it was the iPhone 4G.

You are quite incorrect. Most people would have never noticed it was a 4G because they would have picked it up and handed it to the bartender and said "Hey someone left this here" and been done with it.

99.9999% of people are actually not thiefs, contrary to what you believe. Even among the people here who claim it was not theft (for whatever weird reasons) , most of them would have handed it over to the bartender/manager and would probablly never even spent a second more with it than was needed.

It is nice to meet the anonymous thief finally.

i don't understand why everyone seems to want to blame the "finder" and gizmodo. this phone was "lost" by someone who didn't take care of a product he knew to be valuable to the media, hence camouflaging its true identity. if anyone is to blame here, it is apple for allowing it into the hands of an irresponsible person who chose to go drinking and forget a very valuable piece of equipment. if you fail to protect your valuables, you are the main one to blame. are the “finder” and gizmodo without blame? no. but apple must look at itself before pointing fingers elsewhere.

and i do find it very ironic that everyone on this site is angry at the “finder” and gizmodo. this site is called macRUMORS. you come here to find out information that has not been officially released to the public, and then get angry that someone provided the leaked information to you? seems a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?

She shouldn't dress like that, she was asking for it! Besides your honor, it felt really good!
 
Wow, this is one of the worst threads I've ever tried to read on this site, possibly on any site. I had to stop even skimming through messages about page 8. Unbelievable how ignorant and mean spirited the fanbois can get. Most of the comments here are more worthy of a Gawker comment thread than MacRumors.

It's pretty obvious that most of the people with an opinion of the law here got their legal education watching Law & Order or from some cheesy John Grisham novel. What a joke.
:eek:

My favorite was the guy who said the ownership of the phone reverted to the bar owner.

The problem is that all the FB's think Apple was wronged. Apple was probably wronged by the sale of the phone. Apple was most likely not wronged by the loss of the phone.
 
Wow, this is one of the worst threads I've ever tried to read on this site, possibly on any site. I had to stop even skimming through messages about page 8. Unbelievable how ignorant and mean spirited the fanbois can get. Most of the comments here are more worthy of a Gawker comment thread than MacRumors.

It's pretty obvious that most of the people with an opinion of the law here got their legal education watching Law & Order or from some cheesy John Grisham novel. What a joke.
:eek:

I hope you're not referring to me. I got my legal opinion spending years studying business law, copyright law, and understanding contract law and the Uniform Commercial Code, among other aspects of business and journalism.

Also, I happen to be what some people like to refer to as a professional blogger... though I don't write about daily goings on and I'm not regurgitating research that some real journalist actually beat the pavement to get.

Also, I'm not defending Apple... my comments have zilch to do with Apple's side of this. They have everything to do with Gizmodo being a disreputable bunch of amateurs who got popular the way many things get popular... because the masses are not too intellectually demanding.

If the buyer had any knowledge that the product was stolen, the contract is void, the sale is illegal, and the buyer can be held liable just as much as the seller... though the remedy is usually nullification of the contract, meaning the buyer has to return the stolen property. Case closed. However, technically speaking the buyer was engaged in an illegal act... and in this case there's a very great chance Gizmodo knew that what they were doing was illegal.

In fact, there's a good chance given all the facts that Gizmodo knew what they were buying even though the seller may have not... As long as the seller isn't the one who asked for $5000. Something tells me Gizmodo wasn't dumb enough to just come right out and offer them $5000, though, if the seller had no idea what they had on their hands... they could have sent an anonymous guy and offered a couple hundred bucks. But no, the transaction suggests both parties knew what was being exchanged.

Apple's interest here is to avoid amplifying the situation by pursuing legal remedy before Gizmodo willingly turns over the phone... because it would engage their lawyers for far more money than they have to gain. Again, if the stolen property is returned to Apple, the tort law issue is remedied. The criminal law issue involves penalties against buyer and/or seller that have nothing to do with restitution to the owner. Apple has an interest in keeping this as low-key as possible, to avoid wasting their money and to avoid drawing further attention to what may likely be a close-to-final prototype.

That's not fanboy-speak... that's just objective fact. They're entitled to protect their intellectual property, as is Microsoft, as is Tom Dick and Harry Record Company... or any mom and pop operation.
 
i don't understand why everyone seems to want to blame the "finder" and gizmodo. this phone was "lost" by someone who didn't take care of a product he knew to be valuable to the media, hence camouflaging its true identity. if anyone is to blame here, it is apple for allowing it into the hands of an irresponsible person who chose to go drinking and forget a very valuable piece of equipment. if you fail to protect your valuables, you are the main one to blame. are the “finder” and gizmodo without blame? no. but apple must look at itself before pointing fingers elsewhere.

and i do find it very ironic that everyone on this site is angry at the “finder” and gizmodo. this site is called macRUMORS. you come here to find out information that has not been officially released to the public, and then get angry that someone provided the leaked information to you? seems a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?

Now put yourself in the shoes of Grey Powell. Are you still blaming yourself and not angry at anyone but yourself, even if your life is published?
 
The problem is that all the FB's think Apple was wronged. Apple was probably wronged by the sale of the phone. Apple was most likely not wronged by the loss of the phone.

Personally I feel bad for Gray. Was he an idiot for losing it the first place? Probably. Did he deserve to be outed and embarrassed on the internet for no good reason by a group of people (the phone's finder, Gizmodo) who were/are acting like cocky jerks about the whole thing? No.

Gizmodo could have just published the details of the phone and we would have all been perfectly satisfied with that info, but instead they have to publish story after story of details and bragging about how they got through Apple's curtain of secrecy.
 
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