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Applespider said:
I believe the transparency is currently only there to show they can do it and is supposedly going to be turned down in the later betas. I'm not really sure why they're putting that in to be honest since most Windows users work full screen; why do they need to be able to see the Windows behind it - it'll just end up a jumbled mess.

I think you're right. It's kind of like how Apple had more transparency in their developer builds of the original Mac OS X before they turned things down a bit (but not much). Then it improved over time with the next releases.

That's one thing MS misses out on: they come out with an OS, and have no room to fine tune it after the initial release. Still, it's a wonder that the people working on Vista don't say "hm, I really don't like how this is working, let's change it so that it's better." I think that the only part of MS that does this is the Mac BU, whose products have been good for their time in the past few years.

These screenshots aren't particularly interesting, and some of them are downright ugly. I think it's funny that in the WiMP 10 screenshot, the big play button is styled like how Apple apps are, and in the bottom row of buttons, there's that "shiny, reflective top" that you can find in widgets and the like.
-Chase
 
rendezvouscp said:
I think you're right. It's kind of like how Apple had more transparency in their developer builds of the original Mac OS X before they turned things down a bit (but not much). Then it improved over time with the next releases.

That's one thing MS misses out on: they come out with an OS, and have no room to fine tune it after the initial release. Still, it's a wonder that the people working on Vista don't say "hm, I really don't like how this is working, let's change it so that it's better." I think that the only part of MS that does this is the Mac BU, whose products have been good for their time in the past few years.

These screenshots aren't particularly interesting, and some of them are downright ugly. I think it's funny that in the WiMP 10 screenshot, the big play button is styled like how Apple apps are, and in the bottom row of buttons, there's that "shiny, reflective top" that you can find in widgets and the like.
-Chase

My guess is that you'll want to see as much of the desktop as possible in Vista (WinVI). They have a new windows management concept called "scalable fabric". It allows you to shrink windows down and move them to the outer parts of the screen.
http://patrickbaudisch.com/publications/2004-Robertson-AVI04-ScalableFabric.pdf
http://patrickbaudisch.com/publications/2004-Robertson-AVI04-ScalableFabric512kbps.wmv
http://patrickbaudisch.com/publications/2004-Robertson-AVI04-ScalableFabric3mbps.wmv

The video here also shows scalable fabric, groupbar, projectbar, and drag and pop.
http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=14162
 
BGil said:
Dell does that so they can offer $600 notebooks. The two low end Dell laptops get 512 ram at about $800 and the higher-end models get 512 around $1000.

HP, on the other hand, has 512 ram standand on all their "recommended" and "ready-to-ship" models, 1GB is standard at about $1100. Keep in mind that Best Buy and CC rebates on these machines usually lower the price $100-$250.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7267799&type=product&id=1117177721941
That's a Gateway with 512 ram at BBY.

http://bestbuy.dailyshopper.com/ind...&deptid=10154&title=Computers+and+Peripherals
That's an HP with 512 ram (and DX9 graphics with 128mb's of dedicated memory) for under $1000 after rebates.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1115365776587&skuId=7247712&type=product
That one cost $700 after rebates and it's got 512 and DX9 graphics (shared memory).

Ram is super cheap these days. You can pick up 2 sticks of 512 for less than $100. ATI and Intel both offer integrated graphics with full DX9 support (some have dedicated memory some don't).

Dell is really the only manufacturer selling a ton of machines that don't meet those basics specs but those are only machines under about $800. Anything above that price range is going to be very well equipped (unless it's an IBM/Lenevo, Mac, or Sony).

I completely hear what your saying and I totally agree with the ease of upgrade/cheap ability to upgrade ram. I guess what I was most trying to get at is all those people that buy those DELLs that are at the lowest possible price range. I can think of 6 people off the top of my head that bought specifically the cheapest computer possible for college/home/office.

1. All of the computers below those price range you mentioned are going to be horribly crippled with the stock ram they have included.
2. What about all of those computers that were sold before the standardization of 512mb in Desktops/Notebooks if they are not fully able to utilize the stock features in Vista, i think they may be just a little pissed
3. All those people buying those extremely cheap comps without the stock 512mb ram do we really think they are going to be the type of people capable to install ram on their own??
 
I don't mind the transparency too much, even though it is overused. The thing that bugs me is the tabs in IE. They look like crap! Everything looks like a polished version of XP. The close/minimize/maximize buttons are the worst I've ever seen. It'd be better if they get rid of the boxes around them and just have the icons alone.

I go to a school that only has Windows labs, and majoring in Computer Information Systems is quite hard with my current iBook which I love. I'm sure I can get by with the Mac, but there's things that I will definitely learn that won't help me at all with Macs.
 
Transparent windows= very distracting. Not only that, but they are going to be loosing a bunch of cpu time on calculating that gaussian blur through the alpha channels. WTF are they thinking?
 
BGil said:
Actually, what you see is just a theme for the Windows 2003 code base. The Aero user interface won't be shown publically until Beta 2 which is sometime between Nov. and Jan of 2006. Early reports from people who have seen Aero say there's no more taskbar.

Still looks no different to me. More importantly, who really cares how slick the interface is? Cutesy little icons and transitions effects are just icing. If used correctly they can even provide positive cues, but there are many more important things to worry about in an OS.

You did hear wrong but every Win32 API has been replaced. The entire networking stack has been replaced. DirectX has been replaced. The kernel is now based on the one in Windows Server 2003 as opposed to the one from XP/2000 (no they are not the same). The all video, audio, color, print, speech, natural launguage, sync, ink/tablet, and fundamentals stuff was replaced. The networking stack was replaced. The 64-bit kernel is all new and even the 32-bit kernel isn't natively compatible with the one in previous OS'es. NTFS underwent massive changes and WinFS will completely replace the user data store and data model for building apps. The commandline is being replaced with MSH and finally the entire Media Center framework has been redone. IIRC all the major API's are .NET (1.1 or 2.0) based now.

This sounds like a lot of cool stuff. It also sounds like MS is also really learning to enforce discipline, which is what Windows needed since 1990, when the code was so full of hacks and workarounds that it looked like an intro CS homework assignment.

I don't understand the alarm in this thread. I hope Windows Vista is killer...Windows is going to dominate for a long time, which means almost everybody will have to use it. If MS can make a great OS then that benefits everybody except Apple shareholders. (Sorry, can't please everyone.)

I'm still confident, however, that Leopard will provide another great leap. I also don't believe for a second that Vista will be in any way a Tiger OR Leopard killer--I just don't see MS pulling off something this big on the first try. Their whole corporate mindset is very twisted and they only superficially try to provide what customers want. At the same time, they try to rip off the customer by locking them into proprietary formats, saddling them with privacy-violating software, and pushing huge new updates on them all the time.
 
Vista or not...

I don't care, just as long as they stop playing those lame crappy ads about "creativity" with Windows XP on TV!!! :mad:
 
Vista can have the slickest GUI in the world but if it still has the virus and spyware issues that Windows has now (among other problems), I don't think it can be considered a killer of anything.
 
1. All of the computers below those price range you mentioned are going to be horribly crippled with the stock ram they have included.
2. What about all of those computers that were sold before the standardization of 512mb in Desktops/Notebooks if they are not fully able to utilize the stock features in Vista, i think they may be just a little pissed
3. All those people buying those extremely cheap comps without the stock 512mb ram do we really think they are going to be the type of people capable to install ram on their own??

That's why there are four tiers to their UI. http://activewin.com/longhorn/images/Longhorn Graphics Experiences 1.png
The Classic tier will run on anything that can run Windows 2000/XP.

I'm still confident, however, that Leopard will provide another great leap. I also don't believe for a second that Vista will be in any way a Tiger OR Leopard killer--I just don't see MS pulling off something this big on the first try.

I'm doubting how big a leap Leopard will be. I think Apple needs to worry more about their Intel switchover rather than beating Microsoft. I saw how slow Photoshop CS2 loaded on the 3.6ghz P4 and I'm quite worried. Apple seems to throw performance considerations to the wind sometimes and I hope they don't do that here. Tiger was/is way too buggy IMO. I don't want the same from Leopard.

Even so, I don't believe Tiger was the leap over Panther than Panther was over Jag or Jag over 10.1. IMO it's the smallest OS X update yet.
Maybe Macworld 2006 or WWDC 2006 will change my mind.

I don't have any doubts about Microsoft's ability to pull of Longhorn because I've been using the bits the entire time. I've used all the Windows Server 2003 bits (beta and retail), all the Longhorn builds, all the Avalon and Indigo builds, and all the XP x64 builds. I'm also running Tablet and Media Center Edition at home. Windows Server 2003 was one of the best OS releases ever. It was extremely stable, very very fast, and solid all around. If Longhorn launches as well as all the individual pieces look then it'll be great.

From what I understand, I've seen or read about 50% or more of Longhorn's feature set. The list is extremely long at this point. There's a lot of things in Longhorn and they've fixed a lot of things people had problems with in XP. I don't see very much innovation in Tiger (automator is cool though) so I don't see how Longhorn can't beat it. Longhorn Beta 1 looks like it will put Tiger to shame.

Their whole corporate mindset is very twisted and they only superficially try to provide what customers want. At the same time, they try to rip off the customer by locking them into proprietary formats, saddling them with privacy-violating software, and pushing huge new updates on them all the time.

See I feel that way about Apple. They don't give customers what they actually want in favor of looking innovative. They'd rather be first with a niche technology like Firewire 800 (to be precieved as innovative) than ship their machines with 512mbs of ram standard. They were one of, if not, the first to implement DVD burners when they were a $800-$1000 option but they were the last to implement dual layer DVD burning, DVD+ support, 8X and 16X burning when those advancements were cheap. Their lack of high-res laptop LCD's is pushed aside so they can offer a 30 inch Cinema Screen-- their laptop screens still suck compared to the ones found on mid-range Dells, HP's, IBM's, and Fujitsu's. They rushed Spotlight out the door to beat Longhorn (it got beat by MSDS/WDS anyway) and all it did was hurt Mac users. It's absolutely ridiculous that the Finder can't use the new metadata for sorting, grouping, etc. or that you can't apply keywords to multiple files without Automator. Why can't Spotlight index a database when MSDS, Indexing Service, GoogleDS, YahooDS, X1, Lookout, Beagle, and numerous other desktop search apps can. Why doesn't Spotlight return the context of an item? Where's the item preview? Why isn't all this new metadata editable via the Finder? The demo sure looked good though.

At the same time, they try to rip off the customer by locking them into proprietary formats,

Likewise, Apple disables WMA playback on the iPod when it supports it by default. The iTMS-iPod lock-in is a perfect example.

pushing huge new updates on them all the time.

Microsoft keeps a ton of backwards compatibilty in their releases. Even in Longhorn you can revert all the way back to the Windows 2000 interface (even in the final version of Longhorn). It fully supports Win32 and most other legacy APIs. Apple ditched OS 9 in such a way as to make it painful for most of us and now only five years later they're making another huge switch that is going to require me to buy lots of new software. They break tons of programs with every release and they don't port much of anything back to the previous OS. Did you know that brand new iMacs won't boot into Panther?

It seems to me that Apple is more "Microsoftish" than Microsoft is these days. Case in point: Microsoft went to Dave Winer and the RSS community to get feedback on their RSS extenstions, then released it via Creative Commons while Apple took RSS and did a true "embrace and extend" with iTunes 4.9. Apple is the one now practicing lock-in with their Fairplay while Microsoft choose to not even control the licensing of WM9 directly. It's only availble via thrid-parties and it's available to anyone on any OS. Numerous Linux devices now support WM9 with full DRM support. Microsoft is releasing the specs to the new Office and Metro file formats. You can license them for free and now compatibilty should be very easy for competitors.
Now Apple is using Palladium on their Mactels for the exact doomsday scenario that people tried to accuse Microsoft of.
 
BGil said:
I think Apple needs to worry more about their Intel switchover rather than beating Microsoft. I saw how slow Photoshop CS2 loaded on the 3.6ghz P4 and I'm quite worried. Apple seems to throw performance considerations to the wind sometimes and I hope they don't do that here.
Just to be clear, that was not an Intel-native build of Photoshop, it was a PPC build running on "Rosetta" emulation. But yeah, it was pretty damned slow. I think people buying new Intel Macs will be fine, but for those with older Macs, it could be painful.

I also have to acknowledge much of what you said about Tiger and Apple is truthful, and you laid out your case very well. Spotlight is promising, but both gimped and horked at the moment. However, despite all that, I have very little confidence that MS can deliver an overall user experience superior to what we get with OS X. As always, the devil is in the details, and I suspect many of the old MS flaws are still going to be there (amateurish icons and text layout, difficult networking, too many toolbars, settings confusingly spread out over many subpanels in various places in the OS, etc.).
 
HiRez said:
Just to be clear, that was not an Intel-native build of Photoshop, it was a PPC build running on "Rosetta" emulation. But yeah, it was pretty damned slow. I think people buying new Intel Macs will be fine, but for those with older Macs, it could be painful.

Uh umm... but for those with older Macs? I think you got my point (and if you didn't: those with older Macs will continue to run Photoshop the same as they always have, since there's no Rosetta for PPC).
-Chase
 
Just to be clear, that was not an Intel-native build of Photoshop, it was a PPC build running on "Rosetta" emulation. But yeah, it was pretty damned slow. I think people buying new Intel Macs will be fine, but for those with older Macs, it could be painful.

I know. I'm wondering what's going to happen to all those people with the Creative Suite V.1 and Photoshop 7/8. They're gonna run like a dog under Rosetta. AE 6.5, Macromedia Studio MX 2004, FCP 5, Motion 2, Reason 3, and a bunch of other software I use is probably going to be really slow and poorly optimized for years after the transition. Some of that stuff is written in Carbon or have lots of G5 specific code. Even if those companies were to give us free downloads for our old apps (they probably won't), those downloads would be hundreds of megabytes a piece. The Adobe Creative Suite is something like 2.1 GB's of code, I don't want to download 2.1GB's.
However, despite all that, I have very little confidence that MS can deliver an overall user experience superior to what we get with OS X.

In terms of overall user experience I still think Apple will remain on top (as long as you don't mind the massive performance differences between the average Lognhorn PC and the average Mac circa 2006 and beyond). Apple's UI design is generally more pleasing that Microsoft's. No arguement here.

As always, the devil is in the details, and I suspect many of the old MS flaws are still going to be there (amateurish icons and text layout, difficult networking, too many toolbars, settings confusingly spread out over many subpanels in various places in the OS, etc.).

The icons will all be replaced because they will be 3D and vector based. They're all drawn with Avalon and WGF now.
The text engine has been completely replaced also.
The networking stack is completely replaced too. Indigio has a ton of automatic netowrking stuff. There's a new Longhorn feature that analyzes your network and any problems you may be having and fixes them. It's very similar to what they've been showing in IIS7. Networking in Longhorn is extremely easy.
There probably will be a ton of toolbars but the word is that they have a new graphical solution called a "ribbon" (it's also part of Office 12). There have been some screenshots/mockups provided by ATI but other than that not much is known. Supposedly it's much easier to use but we'll see.
Settings for things are supposed to be moved to a central location and governed by a central diagnostic app but the manual stuff will probably be difficult to find.
 
Leopard. :D

On another note, when August 3rd and it lands, I'm gonna get Beta 1 and install it. I hope the beta will be free to download like the beta for XP and the beta versions of 2003.
 
BGil said:
You did hear wrong but every Win32 API has been replaced. The entire networking stack has been replaced. DirectX has been replaced. The kernel is now based on the one in Windows Server 2003 as opposed to the one from XP/2000 (no they are not the same). The all video, audio, color, print, speech, natural launguage, sync, ink/tablet, and fundamentals stuff was replaced. The networking stack was replaced. The 64-bit kernel is all new and even the 32-bit kernel isn't natively compatible with the one in previous OS'es. NTFS underwent massive changes and WinFS will completely replace the user data store and data model for building apps. The commandline is being replaced with MSH and finally the entire Media Center framework has been redone. IIRC all the major API's are .NET (1.1 or 2.0) based now.

It's great that they're replacing old code with new stuff... but if it's still presented to the user as a jumbled mess it's not going to be any better than Windows XP.

It will be interesting to see what they have to show with Beta2.

To me, an OS like Panther/Tiger is more than the sum of it's parts because (for the most part) everything works as I would expect it to - many things are integrated (iLife apps compliment one another), and the OS doesn't get in my way.

Windows on the other hand is jumbled and confusing... and very intrusive (now more than ever since XP service pack 2). Hopefully Longhorn/Vista is better...
 
OS X needs GUI refinements

I haven't seen much of vista/longhorn so not sure how it compares with OS X GUI but I've always been a little puzzled about certain elements in OS X's GUI. My main gripe is...

1) The rounded/shadowed/blue scroll bars and arrows SUCK!
2) The read,yellow,green window buttons SUCK!

Windows XP is way ahead in this area, as far as a refined, consistent GUI goes. I hope Apple's working on this.
 
MacVault said:
I haven't seen much of vista/longhorn so not sure how it compares with OS X GUI but I've always been a little puzzled about certain elements in OS X's GUI. My main gripe is...

1) The rounded/shadowed/blue scroll bars and arrows SUCK!
2) The read,yellow,green window buttons SUCK!

Windows XP is way ahead in this area, as far as a refined, consistent GUI goes. I hope Apple's working on this.

Theme support is a must for any modern OS IMO. To me not having theme support is like not having the ability to change you desktop picture.
 
xisforextreme said:
Leopard or Vista?

Depends on whether you're a sadist or a masochist.

If you are the latter, then you'll *enjoy* keeping Vista in top working condition.

If you're the former, then you'll *enjoy* telling your PC friends about how great, stable, and virus free your computer is.

The choice is yours, choose wisely :)
 
MacVault said:
I haven't seen much of vista/longhorn so not sure how it compares with OS X GUI but I've always been a little puzzled about certain elements in OS X's GUI. My main gripe is...

1) The rounded/shadowed/blue scroll bars and arrows SUCK!
2) The read,yellow,green window buttons SUCK!

Windows XP is way ahead in this area, as far as a refined, consistent GUI goes. I hope Apple's working on this.

I really don't see the problem with the scrollbar and titlebar buttons... In fact I like that the titlebar buttons are differently colored, since it makes it easier to make sure you're hitting the correct button without second glance.

Personally I hate WinXP's Luna theme. The colors are way too in-your-face and the blue resembles the BSOD blue too much :p
 
xisforextreme said:
OK, this is going to make me sound like a bit of a turncoat here, but looking at the previews of vista, it actually looks pretty smooth, *gasp* :eek:, maybe even better than my beloved tiger! It's really got me wondering whether or not leopard will be able to fight it out with such an improved contender, especially now that microsoft has recognized how important a good gui is. I really hope that leopard will make more progress than tiger did from panther, and include a new more "shiny" gui as well as some vista-killing features... :D

Trust me, I've been running the alpha versions. Pretty GUI when you look at it but its not very well implemented. Hopefully they'll revamp it completely.

Besides, shininess does not matter. Featurewise, Tiger is still ahead of Longhorn in some ways! Remember, WinFS and Avalon have been stripped out.
 
M$ trash ( do not compare, look at track record )

Why would anybody in his right mind promote windows?

The registry hell !!!!
The DLL hell !!!!
Spyware hell !!!!!
Virii hell !!!!!
The security hell !!!!!
The VSB hell !!!!
Propriety hell !!!!! WMF, WMA, DirextX, IE-HTML, AD, Exchange, ISS ( what a poor quality, DirextX being the exception ! )
The managing/complexibility hell !!!! ( reliability, again the registry, keeping a system in good shape, a ridiculous amount of necessary tools ( MMC, Policies ) )
The build hell !!!!!!
The wizard hell !!!!!!
The pop-up hell !!!!!
The registration hell !!!!!
The NTFS/defrag hell !!!!!
The drivers hell !!!!!
The spaghetti/bloatware hell !!!!
Poor multi tasking/performance
Trying to kill almost any open standard: Java, PDF, HTML, CSS
Ugly gui

These are all reasons to never consider Windows again.
 
toneloco2881 said:
Here's some screenshots of Windows "Vista" Beta 1

I don't know about the rest of you, but my favorite picture was the one that clearly showcased the "This page cannot be displayed" message in Explorer. While trying to connect to Microsoft's website, no less!
 
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