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Leopard Webkit questions

Lud DiLettante

Lud DiLettante

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 17, 2015
149
27
Finland
I've installed 8GB RAM and reinstalled Leopard on my G5 and everything works great, but Safari/Webkit still stalls at times, won't load images, or perform a search.

I'll have to go back to basics: I've been confused about the relation of Safari and the Webkit.app for a long time. Long ago Tobias Netzel explained to me personally that I'm not supposed to use the Webkit.app itself as the browser but, once installed, Safari will utilize it.

However in the latest version it says "don't forget to set the latest WebKit version as the default web browser in the Safari settings." Now, at the settings I see Safari.app (5.0.6) and Webkit.app (r187880). If I set Webkit as default it means the Webkit.app will start as the browser for instance when I click on Weblocs (which I use instead of bookmarks).

So which is it, did something change, or what..? And if I'm still not supposed to set the Webkit.app as the browser, what's the difference? Have I made a big mistake using it as a browser?

Also, I use Clicktoplugin and hosts files. I don't use Glimmerblocker anymore as I was told it's redundant together with hosts files, or something like that...
 
On all my PPC's the default browser is TenFourFox, however TFF lack's support for Flash. As a result it requires me to selectively use Webkit. (Yes I start WebKit not Safari). There are 4 extensions installed in Safari; Click To Plugin, AdBlock, uBlock and Disconnect.

This dual browser configuration works well on both my G5 and PowerBook G4.

Lud DiLettante said:
I've installed 8GB RAM and reinstalled Leopard on my G5 and everything works great, but Safari/Webkit still stalls at times, won't load images, or perform a search.

I'll have to go back to basics: I've been confused about the relation of Safari and the Webkit.app for a long time. Long ago Tobias Netzel explained to me personally that I'm not supposed to use the Webkit.app itself as the browser but, once installed, Safari will utilize it.

However in the latest version it says "don't forget to set the latest WebKit version as the default web browser in the Safari settings." Now, at the settings I see Safari.app (5.0.6) and Webkit.app (r187880). If I set Webkit as default it means the Webkit.app will start as the browser for instance when I click on Weblocs (which I use instead of bookmarks).

So which is it, did something change, or what..? And if I'm still not supposed to set the Webkit.app as the browser, what's the difference? Have I made a big mistake using it as a browser?

Also, I use Clicktoplugin and hosts files. I don't use Glimmerblocker anymore as I was told it's redundant together with hosts files, or something like that...
Click to expand...
 
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Yes, you set r187880 as the default browser and you use the Webkit app (note the icons for both apps - Safari is a silver trimmed compass, Webkit is gold).
There's also an option to install the Webkit framework system wide but don't do that unless you know exactly what you are doing.
You will find using Webkit, there will be some sites that don't work correctly that TFF can handle fine - as Hack5190 said, a balance is required.
Personally, I find Webkit faster in most situations but use TFF when needed.
Don't forget you can use Fluid with Webkit and TenFourBox with TFF to make standalone web apps for specific sites :)
 
OK. I found the original conversation with Tobias and he said:
"In case you did install there is no point in using the WebKit application - Safari will share Leopard WebKit with all other applications that use WebKit, like Mail, Dashboard and others."

So after that, for over a year ago, I went back to the silver-rimmed Safari, as I had installed Webkit, anyway. Never realized I had to "know exactly what I'm doing"... On top of the main install I did:
"Enable advanced features" and "Update system certificates".
The ones I didn't use were:
"Relink against Leopard WebKit". I tried this but couldn't quite figure out how it works.
"Disable TopSites preview rendering" I haven't used because I love the feature...

So, I don't know if I've been more vulnerable recently when just using the silver Safari with Webkit installed together with those scripts.

Be as it may, at the moment I'm having various problems on both versions, like the ones I mentioned before, and today I had to restart the browser for logging into email, for instance... Maybe I should try a faster connection..? I probably have the cheapest/slowest there is... ;D But I might also install that Fox browser at least to see how it works...
 
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I have reservations about doing a 'system wide' install. Prefer to use the webkit application along with "Enable advanced features" and "Update system certificates".

Depending on the condition of your OS and the number of changes (edits, installs, tweaks, uninstalls, etc) you may want to consider a clean install. Having done a fresh install on my G5, PowerBook and MacBook Pro (El Capitan) the difference it can make is impressive. Plus I seem to never need all the programs installed over time.
 
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Alright. I uninstalled Webkit... but will keep using it as the default browser.
I fear this has, indeed, been another case of not knowing exactly what I'm doing. Seems I probably got the terms "default browser" and "system default" mixed up originally, not realizing Webkit isn't just a browser...

I'd hate to do another clean install as I just did it last weekend... but if I should do it for having had Webkit as system default for these couple of days, I'll do it.
[doublepost=1459880962][/doublepost]The "Readme" uninstall info says "You might also want to revert the advanced features settings to the defaults." So, I wonder...
 
Ystävä the good news about just doing an install last weekend is (1) you are familiar with the process (2) know what tweaks / changes you made and (3) probably have the install disk and any other programs handy.

May I suggest you get a good backup program (I user Super Duper! w/PPC's) and make frequent bootable backup's until your happy with the system. This gives you a quick & easy way to 'roll back' any unwanted / unexpected changes / problems.

dunce_cap_648.jpg


I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
I will do frequent backups.
 
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Hack5190 said:
Ystävä the good news about just doing an install last weekend is (1) you are familiar with the process (2) know what tweaks / changes you made and (3) probably have the install disk and any other programs handy.
Click to expand...
K... I guess that means you recommend reinstalling Leopard because of the system default thing.

As for backups, at the moment I have pretty much everything in duplicate here and there, but hadn't prepared a disk for new backups yet. I was planning on giving TimeMachine another chance but maybe I should try SuperDuper for instance. Sounds stupid though ;D compared to TimeMachine (and I've always loved the Apple default apps, at least for their aesthetic sense).
 
Lud DiLettante said:
K... I guess that means you recommend reinstalling Leopard because of the system default thing.

As for backups, at the moment I have pretty much everything in duplicate here and there, but hadn't prepared a disk for new backups yet. I was planning on giving TimeMachine another chance but maybe I should try SuperDuper for instance. Sounds stupid though ;D compared to TimeMachine (and I've always loved the Apple default apps, at least for their aesthetic sense).
Click to expand...

I use both Time Machine & SuperDuper. Time Machine does version backups, SuperDuper is configured to make a bootable clone (that is stored offline to prevent accidental changes or infection).
 
Everyone has to decide on their own. But I would recommend against installing webkit systemwide, because there are known security issues with the webkit framework. I will provide the links another day, when I don't just stop by to drop a short line.

In another forum, we made astonishing observations when comparing the compatibility of media (no flash!) with webkit/Safari and Tenfourfox and firefox. On current Macs it seems Safari won't offer you the highest resolution to choose from in mediatheks, while the old outdated Safari under 10.4 and the modern Firefox under 10.9 does. Quite strange.
 
Another tip, which seems to happen in certain conditions (depending on your router, internet connection, etc), is to disable IPv6 in Network Preferences for your Internet Connection. I noticed that Webkit would take forever to resolve certain websites - turning off IPv6 made a huge difference.

Lately, it doesn't seem to matter, but if you do experience slowdowns with Webkit, give it a try.
 
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Since I had Webkit installed system wide for well over a year I wonder if there's anything I should check retrospectively... A clean install of boot disk is one thing of course (I did that some days ago - but then did reinstall Webkit, too - now uninstalled). But my previous boot disk is also connected as my second drive, and still has everything from the last year. I use it as backup storage (no new backups) and besides my documents, I have selectively copied some home library files back onto the new drive. Maybe some such files could also bring back some problems..? (At least I ran Onyx on stuff, etc. But in fact I have also wondered if Onyx might undo some useful tweaks...)

The IPv6 thing is a good example of something I just forget having done before. I remember now I disabled it in the past, but probably haven't had it off since december because I had various problems and started doing erase/reinstalls... I disabled it now and at least one site that caused problems before seems to work fine now. And just now I noticed the Dictionary word links work for the first time in ages.

I'm not a technical person, more a luddite (yes, lud/dilettante..), so I rarely understand/remember what all the tweaks are about in a technical sense (just the broad sense of improving security/performance etc). So I just follow the instructions recommended on the PPC-related sites etc. I guess I'll have to start a keeping a log of all the changes I make...

So if disabling IPv6 seems to eliminate the browser problems I wonder if I still should do another clean install (because of having had the system-wide Webkit installed for a couple of days), as Hack suggested..?
 
Yeah, another thing to worry about "retroactively"... I guess if some harm has been caused without me being aware of it, there's no way to fix it unless I find out about it at least. In any case, maybe this is another reason to erase and reinstall once again? I may do that today...
 
In truth, you are probably fine. If you are that concerned about security, you might not want to use an old, out dated operating system. The key is to get behind a firewall (usually built-in/managed on your router), turn off all unnecessary services, and stay as up to date as possible with your browsers. While Webkit does seem faster at times than TenFourFox, I know that TFF is a bit more updated security wise. This read is always worthwhile: http://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2014/02/ssafari-ssl-ssucks.html
 
Alright. I erased and reinstalled Leopard once again. Disabled IPv6. Installed 10.4 Fox. No system wide Webkit.
I still prefer the Safari look and features to 10.4F, so I have Webkit as my default browser.
Maybe I'll use the Fox when I need more security. Banking, shopping? Suspect sites? Uhh, those together..? It suddenly occurs to me there are sites that need protection and sites that one needs to be protected *from*... I begin to feel like I'll need a third browser for anything suspicious... OK maybe not.
Anyway, guess I'll have to find my personal balance between Webkit & 10.4 Fox.
 
Lud,

I agree that personal preferences play a big part in the decision what browser many people choose. My decisions are based on security and needs.

TenFourFox (TFF) is my default browser with some speed & security add ones and tweaks. TFF supports proxy settings allowing me to use TOR vs needing to change the system proxy (causing unwanted traffic to be routed over TOR). However there are times when flash is needed and that's where WebKit with my hacked version of Flash comes into play. Like TFF a select group of add ons are installed to enhance security.

For banking and shopping either WebKit or TFF should be fine. Provided your banking and shopping on sites using encryption (https) ;)
 
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Hack5190 said:
TenFourFox (TFF) is my default browser with some speed & security add ones and tweaks. TFF supports proxy settings allowing me to use TOR vs needing to change the system proxy (causing unwanted traffic to be routed over TOR). However there are times when flash is needed and that's where WebKit with my hacked version of Flash comes into play. Like TFF a select group of add ons are installed to enhance security.
Click to expand...
Yeah I tend to get the concepts of privacy and security mixed up sometimes. I've never tried onion routing as I haven't thought it necessary for anything I do online. In terms of privacy I'm one of those irritating people who thinks they have nothing to hide ;D but in terms of security I'm not sure how exposed I might be to be exploited somehow on certain sites that can readily be accessed from Google etc.

So far I'm not finding a straight TFF counterpart to Safari's private browsing. I suppose the privacy settings at the TFF preferences could be used.
Can you recommend any of those TFF addons?
Are the Firefox addons that are linked from the TFF front page supposed to work on TFF?

FYI, I've been using hosts files from http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ since about 2014.
 
Because most extensions slow down your browser I try to minimize the number in use on my PPC machines. On my PowerBook the follwoing extensions are used in TFF

Extensions.jpg

Although there are 6, you only need three to help secure your browser - Bluehell Firewall, HTTPS-Everywhere and uMatrix. And yes these are the same extensions avaialble for Firefox.

Regarding the hosts file you listed, it reminds me of similar lists intended for firewall use (you can read more here). The two are similar in objective, block access to bad sites. The firewall approach simply blocks access to a domain or IP address. The hosts file method hardcodes an IP address on your local machine (127.0.0.1) for domains being blocked.

Although similar in objective there is (in my opinion) an advantage to the firewall approach. The hosts file can't block access to an IP address - only domain names. Next is the possibility that an entry in the hosts file could redirect traffic to an IP address other than 127.0.0.1.

Hopefully this helps . . .
 
Thanks Hack & JB.
Yes, redundancy is something I wonder about, especially if some redundant extensions/settings/files/methods etc actually block something that wouldn't need to be blocked, slow down things, or something else unwanted. Obviously there'll be so many possible combinations we probably couldn't cover them all here. But then, I'm still fairly confident I'm not a high risk user... knock on wood.

Well, I never heard about those firewall lists. Wonder why. The sites I read just talk about hosts files/mappings, so did Tobias of Webkit. I guess there's no harm in keeping my hosts files even if I start using firewall rulesets - and I haven't had the firewall on so maybe I should. Or what about just enabling the firewall then..?
I worried long ago about some botnet symptoms. But the symptoms never got too bad and I guess I haven't noticed anything like that for a long time.

I used to run the free version of Macscan but I don't think they have that for PPC anymore. Is there any anti-malware app worth using on PPC these days..?

Something I noticed on Webkit only today is that after browsing in private mode all the related cookies still remained. Or, are cookies from a TFF session also shown at the Safari security settings..? I did visit some of the same sites on TFF first. Although I thought those cookies shouldn't have remained from TFF, either... By the way, does it matter if I have 2 browsers on at the same time, as in could stuff from TFF affect Webkit with the private mode off, or something..?

Also, at this very moment (on Webkit) there's an OnlineMapFinder ad above this reply and it's from Googleads.g.doubleclick.net, which indeed I find in the hosts file I just placed at Private/etc today. I guess I should've restarted or done some terminal command for the hosts file to take effect. Will check that...

EDIT: Well damn, I restarted but the ad's still there. The status bar shows it points to the Googleads site at least, dunno how these things work... well, I won't worry about it for now.
 
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I'd recommend everyone enable their firewall - you can read more in my thread here (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/firewalling-leopard.1957530/).

There is no issue running two browsers (WebKit & TFF) - the cookies, history, favourites, etc are unique. Exception being Safari and WebKit.

Personally I do not run anti-virus on any of my Macs nor do I feel they are needed.

Domain names are for humans because their easier to remember than an IP address. Every system uses DNS to convert a domain name into a IP address. DNS check s the host file and if there is no entry for a domain it is uses the DNS servers listed in your network configuration. There is an exception to this, after a look up is resolved the results are cached. So if your system cached Googleads.g.doubleclick.net before you edited the hosts file, changes to the hosts file wouldn't be noticed.

Safe Surfing
 
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I've now set the firewall to "Allow only essential services". I think I've had it set to that before but it's just another thing I forgot when reinstalling.

I spent quite some time trying to nuke that damn ad here. I flushed the DNS cache (which is what I meant by doing "some terminal command"), deleted all Safari caches I knew, etc. No luck. Then I noticed I was having banner ads on Spotify too, something I didn't have for ages. And one was of the "millionth visitor/this is no joke"-type. So I was getting nervous...
I finally decided to install Glimmerblocker again. Worked! I was surprised it worked on Spotify too as I thought GB was Safari-specific. I would've understood if I still had the system wide Webkit installed. But maybe it's about the default browser thing..?

I also had a Flash flashback... I knew I'd had some plugin hack for Flash besides Clicktoplugin before but thought that'd be redundant now (and I don't mean Clicktoflash, which is redundant too). I still haven't dug that one back up but I did realize it might be better to disable any Flash stuff, so I removed the plugins from the main library. I did discover there were none in my home library at least.
EDIT: Alright, of course Flash wouldn't work after removing the plugin so I did search and DL this again: http://scriptogr.am/nordkril/post/adobe-flash-11.5-for-powerpc. I wonder why I ever lost it... :EDIT.

Now if somebody feels tempted to say I should erase and reinstall yet again, go ahead. I think I can take it like a man by now. I'm beginning to accept the possibility that half of my remaining life might be spent erasing and reinstalling, and anyway, it seems to get faster every time... (could be only one third of my remaining life)
 
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Lud DiLettante, Here's a quick list to get you started:

  • Install Leopard
  • Install all updates from Apple
  • Install WebKit
  • Install these extensions in Safari / Webkit: ClickToPlugin, AdBlock, uBlock
 
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