Let’s Talk Cyberpunk

[Huntn]

I am not all that knowledgeable about Cyberpunk as a genre, but I have seen several movies that impress me and a game I am currently playing Cyberpunk 2077 that is very impressive.

Cyberpunk is a subgenre of science fiction in a dystopian futuristic setting that tends to focus on a "combination of low-life and high tech"[1] featuring advanced technological and scientific achievements, such as artificial intelligence and cybernetics, juxtaposed with a degree of breakdown or radical change in the social order.[2] Much of cyberpunk is rooted in the New Wave science fiction movement of the 1960s and 1970s, when writers like Philip K. Dick, Roger Zelazny, John Brunner, J. G. Ballard, Philip José Farmer and Harlan Ellison examined the impact of drug culture, technology, and the sexual revolution while avoiding the utopian tendencies of earlier science fiction.

• Bladerunner (1982)

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• Bladerunner 2049 (2017)

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• Alita: Battle Angel (2019)

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• Cyberpunk 2077 (2020)- video game.

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List of Cyberpunk movies: https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/best-cyberpunk-movies/
One huge difference between Bladerunner 2049 and Cyperpunk 2077, is that Bladerunner looks like a giant slum as in most of the city, while CP77 has parts that look great, although there are run down neighborhoods. I think it was an artistic and possibly a technology decision to film Blade Runner dark, with a lot of emphasis on pollution.
I don’t know if I’d categorize Minority Report as Cyberpunk, would you?

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Cyberpunk 2077 review at GameRevolution:

Cyberpunk 2077 Review | 'As punk as John Lydon doing a butter commercial'

Cyberpunk 2077 review for PC. CD Projekt Red's controversial new RPG is broken in all the wrong places, but there's a great game hidden in the wreckage.

www.gamerevolution.com

"It is as punk as John Lydon doing a butter commercial."

Blade Runner 2049 -- while cinematically spectacular -- was just keeping the faith, taking the lead of the original visionary movie.

Note that the original Blade Runner was directed by Ridley Scott who also directed the very dark original Alien. This was his aesthetic at the time.

As far as I can tell from the Cyberpunk 2077 streams I've seen, the GameRevolution reviewer is correct.

Heck, I think MTV's Aeon Flux cartoon shorts were more cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2077. The full length live action Aeon Flux movie from a few years ago doesn't hold a candle to the original Peter Chung animations.

It's worth pointing out that a lot has to do with the actual story. Both the original Blade Runner and Minority Report were based on Philip K. Dick stories.

Curiously the Studio Binder article mentions The Matrix at the beginning, it doesn't actually rank the movie in their top ten which I consider a mistake.

 

[svanstrom]

Start by reading Neuromancer by William Gibson; that book is like THE most concentrated dose of the vibe of cyberpunk that you can get, and everything else follows from that.

He absolutely didn't create cyberpunk, and you find the underlying themes going 20+ years back before then; but Neuromancer really captured a feeling that really sort of peaked a lot of what was happening at the time. It easily influenced people strongly for like a decade and a half, and that inspiration can be seen among many of the early internet innovators.

Neuromancer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[yaxomoxay]

Start by reading Neuromancer by William Gibson; that book is like THE most concentrated dose of the vibe of cyberpunk that you can get, and everything else follows from that.

He absolutely didn't create cyberpunk, and you find the underlying themes going 20+ years back before then; but Neuromancer really captured a feeling that really sort of peaked a lot of what was happening at the time. It easily influenced people strongly for like a decade and a half, and that inspiration can be seen among many of the early internet innovators.

Neuromancer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

True classic. Brings back memories.

 

[eyoungren]

I am not all that knowledgeable about Cyberpunk as a genre, but I have seen several movies that impress me and a game I am currently playing Cyberpunk 2077 that is very impressive.

• Bladerunner (1982)

View attachment 1722762​

• Bladerunner 2049 (2017)

View attachment 1722760​

• Alita: Battle Angel (2019)

View attachment 1722764​

• Cyberpunk 2077 (2020)- video game.

View attachment 1722761​

List of Cyberpunk movies: https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/best-cyberpunk-movies/
One huge difference between Bladerunner 2049 and Cyperpunk 2077, is that Bladerunner looks like a giant slum as in most of the city, while CP77 has parts that look great, although there are run down neighborhoods. I think it was an artistic and possibly a technology decision to film Blade Runner dark, with a lot of emphasis on pollution.
I don’t know if I’d categorize Minority Report as Cyberpunk, would you?

A lot of the themes of Cyberpunk revolve around classism and the conflict between lower and upper classes. Technology and how it is used is the equalizer. The human condition is played out in those themes.

A good Cyberpunk film to watch would be Johnny Mnemonic. Keanu Reeves before the Matrix.

ShadownRun is an RPG introduced in the 1990s (I have the 1st Edition) that involves a lot of themes of Cyberpunk.

Steven Barnes also had a good series, starting with Street Lethal…

 

[djshack]

The Altered Carbon Netflix series is also a great example (again based on a series of books). One thing that may not be a necessary part of cyberpunk, but that I love, is that many stories incorporate a hard-boiled detective and noir themes. Basically, take a Raymond Chandler novel and set it in a gritty sci-fi future world where humans have learned to make technology work for them.

EDIT: Pic from Altered Carbon:

 

[Huntn]

Cyberpunk 2077 review at GameRevolution:

Cyberpunk 2077 Review | 'As punk as John Lydon doing a butter commercial'

Cyberpunk 2077 review for PC. CD Projekt Red's controversial new RPG is broken in all the wrong places, but there's a great game hidden in the wreckage.

www.gamerevolution.com

"It is as punk as John Lydon doing a butter commercial."

Blade Runner 2049 -- while cinematically spectacular -- was just keeping the faith, taking the lead of the original visionary movie.

Note that the original Blade Runner was directed by Ridley Scott who also directed the very dark original Alien. This was his aesthetic at the time.

As far as I can tell from the Cyberpunk 2077 streams I've seen, the GameRevolution reviewer is correct.

Heck, I think MTV's Aeon Flux cartoon shorts were more cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2077. The full length live action Aeon Flux movie from a few years ago doesn't hold a candle to the original Peter Chung animations.

It's worth pointing out that a lot has to do with the actual story. Both the original Blade Runner and Minority Report were based on Philip K. Dick stories.

Curiously the Studio Binder article mentions The Matrix at the beginning, it doesn't actually rank the movie in their top ten which I consider a mistake.

I view Bladerunner 2049 as Chapter 2 which tells a very important part of the story, and links to the next chapter which could be the next iteration of this future and might include the replicant revolution. The moral dilemma of slaves along with Niander Wallace’s observation that great civilizations have always relied on a disposable work force is riveting in the manner which it is delivered. In fact when watching BR2049, for the first time, I started getting excited about the coming revolution until it dawned on me it was too late in this movie to start it.

Regarding Cyberpunk 2077, there is a discussion in the gaming forum about it’s successes and flaws and while I have some strong critiques about it, yet I find myself continuing to enthusiastically play it. As I said, I’m not a Cyberpunk expert, but the idea of technology augmented human bodies is very intriguing and while I don’t think we’ll see it to the extent portrayed in this game, I like it and in this regard it’s connection to Alita: Battle Angel.

Now The Matrix, I’m hesitating to call this Cyberpunk, but maybe it is. I mean it is a future, but different than the cyberounk I have seen and is the same reason I would not call the future shown in the Terminator series as cyberpunk.

 

[svanstrom]

The Altered Carbon Netflix series is also a great example (again based on a series of books). One thing that may not be a necessary part of cyberpunk, but that I love, is that many stories incorporate a hard-boiled detective and noir themes. Basically, take a Raymond Chandler novel and set it in a gritty sci-fi future world where humans have learned to make technology work for them.

EDIT: Pic from Altered Carbon:

View attachment 1722995

I would easily argue that Altered Carbon is way more cyberpunk than Bladerunner; if we're talking about going to the core of the subject.

The movie Johnny Mnemonic, though, let's just say that you had to be a fan to like it back in the day; and it hasn't aged quite as well as Bladerunner has. It's not bad-bad, but I wouldn't exactly use it to introduce someone to cyberpunk, for reasons unrelated to what's in the story itself.

 

[Huntn]

I am a big fan of Philip K. Dick. I added this description to post 1:
Cyberpunk is a subgenre of science fiction in a dystopian futuristic setting that tends to focus on a "combination of low-life and high tech"[1] featuring advanced technological and scientific achievements, such as artificial intelligence and cybernetics, juxtaposed with a degree of breakdown or radical change in the social order.[2] Much of cyberpunk is rooted in the New Wave science fiction movement of the 1960s and 1970s, when writers like Philip K. Dick, Roger Zelazny, John Brunner, J. G. Ballard, Philip José Farmer and Harlan Ellison examined the impact of drug culture, technology, and the sexual revolution while avoiding the utopian tendencies of earlier science fiction.

The Altered Carbon Netflix series is also a great example (again based on a series of books). One thing that may not be a necessary part of cyberpunk, but that I love, is that many stories incorporate a hard-boiled detective and noir themes. Basically, take a Raymond Chandler novel and set it in a gritty sci-fi future world where humans have learned to make technology work for them.

EDIT: Pic from Altered Carbon:

View attachment 1722995

I’ll have to give this a try.

You mentioned Raymond Chandle and film noir, which reminds me Cyberpunk 2077, that while there are a huge number of side quests, most of them are shallow, crack heads and collect XP affairs. This is one of major critics of the game, the writing.

I’ve not finished it, but while you experience a marvelous main quest in CP2077, with a ton of effort put into it, the rest of it, so far feels like filler in comparison. But every so often you hit a good side quest with a story where a character actually talks to you and immerses you in the setting.

The funny thing is the side quest labeled Ramon Chandler Evening, is most basic, but it’s overall the kind of mechanic this game lacks. Here the bartender, Pepe thinks his wife is cheating on him, and wants you to follow her. It’s really basic, hardly anything to it, but it included the type of story element that pulled me into the setting. It’s too bad, CP2077, does not have more of this.

 

[Huntn]

Speaking of implants, if not outlawed, they are coming:

Elon Musk is making implants to link the brain with a smartphone

Elon Musk wants to insert Bluetooth-enabled implants into your brain, claiming the devices could enable telepathy and repair motor function in people with injuries.

www.cnn.com

If you could have a chip installed in your head that acted as a smart phone, and was not overly expensive, it will happen.

Based on @djshack’s recommendation, I have started Altered Carbon, and although it seems promising, the premise requires a real leap of faith, basically the idea that consciousness, the essence of a person can be stored in technology, allowing you to live forever. I would suggest an in-depth discussion here:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-is-the-reality-of-existence.2115652/

 

[svanstrom]

Based on @djshack’s recommendation, I have started Altered Carbon, and although it seems promising, the premise requires a real leap of faith, basically the idea that consciousness, the essence of a person can be stored in technology, allowing you to live forever.

It's sci-fi, mostly extrapolated from current science; not something that exists to be solved by theologians. 🤷

 

[Huntn]

It's sci-fi, mostly extrapolated from current science; not something that exists to be solved by theologians. 🤷

And it’s science that would identify such a mechanism with any certainty, versus wishful thinking.

 

[Huntn]

Start by reading Neuromancer by William Gibson; that book is like THE most concentrated dose of the vibe of cyberpunk that you can get, and everything else follows from that.

He absolutely didn't create cyberpunk, and you find the underlying themes going 20+ years back before then; but Neuromancer really captured a feeling that really sort of peaked a lot of what was happening at the time. It easily influenced people strongly for like a decade and a half, and that inspiration can be seen among many of the early internet innovators.

Neuromancer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

I’ve started Neuromancer and was impressed how friendly of a read it is, pulling me right in with it’s characterizations. I figured out The Sprawl is a megalopolis on the East Coast of North America from Boston (Canada?) to Florida.

One quick question, regarding the character Case, it mentions him, involved in criminality in cyberspace, caught stealing and punished with an assault on his nervous system, ruining his ability to function in cyberspace. He is in a Japan trying to be cured and I want to know early on if cyberspace in this novel is like VR space?

 

[svanstrom]

if cyberspace in this novel is like VR space?​

Sort of like a VR space hooked directly, deeply, into your brain.

So an advanced version of what we now talk about as brain/neural implants.

 

[Huntn]

Sort of like a VR space hooked directly, deeply, into your brain.

So an advanced version of what we now talk about as brain/neural implants.

Thanks. Where multiple people can interact with each other, more like an alternate reality of sorts?

 

[ejb190]

So I got into cyberpunk in the 1990's. I played a fair bit of CP2020 - the RPG precursor to CP 2077. I read William Gibson, Pat Cadigan, and PK Dick.

I remember reading an article entitled something like Johnny Mnemonic or the Day Cyberpunk Died. I think Cadigan wrote it. The whole premise was that as soon cyberpunk went Hollywood, it was mainstream and, therefore, no longer "punk". Kind of the same argument made about "Grunge" or Alternative music that same decade.

A lot of science fiction sub-genres are a product of their time. Some age well. Others not so much. When new authors/directors/developers dive into a well developed genre I find it interesting to see what themes are retained, which are abandoned, and what new ones emerge.

 

[obeygiant]

Cyberpunk is only part of a wider emerging genre. It can be Bladerunner, Alita, or Ghost in the Shell

Outrun could be movies like Tron, Akira, or possible cannon ball run. maybe even Miami Vice

Vaporwave is more of aesthetic or a music genre

 

[wilk0076]

I stumbled across this very in-depth, informative, and entertaining YouTube documentary about Cyberpunk and I am very excited to share it with this thread - you are gonna love it.

 

[Huntn]

I stumbled across this very in-depth, informative, and entertaining YouTube documentary about Cyberpunk and I am very excited to share it with this thread - you are gonna love it.

47 minutes, I will get to it.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

@Huntn I haven't seen the documentary that @wilk0076 recommended, but whatever CyberPunk was before Neuromancer, Neuromancer went on to define the genre.

There were two sequels, Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive, both of which were very good, although Neuromancer was the best.

The film Johnny Mnemonic was based on a short story of the same name (also by William Gibson). The story is set in the same 'universe' as Neuromancer, but in an earlier time frame. It's part of a back story explaining how that world comes to be.

 

[Huntn]

@Huntn I haven't seen the documentary that @wilk0076 recommended, but whatever CyberPunk was before Neuromancer, Neuromancer went on to define the genre.

There were two sequels, Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive, both of which were very good, although Neuromancer was the best.

The film Johnny Mnemonic was based on a short story of the same name (also by William Gibson). The story is set in the same 'universe' as Neuromancer, but in an earlier time frame. It's part of a back story explaining how that world comes to be.

I’m enjoying Neuromancer. I like the writing, and it very interesting the creativity, because this was written before the internet was a well known entity.

Cyberspace in Neuromancer is described in such a manner that it’s more than an internet space as we know it, but a VR that you brain is slotted into. The Simstim is also really cool, where you step into someone else’s body, see and feel everything they are experiencing. And then there is the portrayal of the AI based on human constructs and one, Flatline who appears intelligent, but void of emotions, a resigned personality, if even that, kind of living in a dream/nightmare.

Cyberpunk 2077 (game) with all the implants including a CPU is really cool. There are a huge number surgical implants, including optical implants, basically replacing your natural eyes, a projectile Launch System that is a rocket launcher in your forearm, basically your forearm is replaced, and a connection to the net in your head, which I could actually see this happening in the not so far future.

 

[Huntn]

I stumbled across this very in-depth, informative, and entertaining YouTube documentary about Cyberpunk and I am very excited to share it with this thread - you are gonna love it.

I got around to start watching this and it’s really good.

 

[Huntn]

I just finished Neuromancer an 80’s cyberpunk story that was ahead of it’s time, involving an AI and some of today’s cyberpunk genre key elements. Some of it is very clear and atmospheric and other parts not so much.

The issue with this story imo, is when the author jumps into cyberspace his writing tends to become psychedelic and disjointed as if he is describing in many cases something along the lines of what I imagine a bad acid trip would be like. I’m in my second read through to see if I can digest these sections a little better to decide if I want to continue with the second book.

The most interesting aspect of the story is that it was written before the internet was a thing to most people and cyberspace is described as a realm you enter with you consciousness while hooked to a computer, a virtual reality, very close to reality as all of your senses are involved.

 

[Huntn]

I decided to read Neuromancer a second time and am really impressed with how Gibson portrays an AI construct based on a human being, the idea we have seen in science fiction and cyberpunk, mapping a human brain and turning into an AI. In this example, it is Dixie Flatline, a net runner, former human being, now an AI construct who is not really happy with its existence, it can think and communicate and relate it’s memories, but is not happy with it’s state of existence:

"How you doing, Dixie?"
"I’m dead, Case. Got enough time in on this Hosaka to figure that one."
"How’s it feel?"
"It doesn’t."
"Bother you?"
"What bothers me is, nothin’ does."

Dixie Flatline is more like a lost soul. This story centers on the efforts of a different AI to achieve more freedom than it has, but at this point, I’m not sure if it is completely an artificial creation or personality construct like Flatline.