Liberal Arts or Vocational Education- One, Other or Both?

[Huntn]

An outstanding discussion on National Public Radio today about secondary education in the US, and that we spend more on education than any country, yet we are only slightly above average in reading, we suck at math, and countries who spend much less than we do are getting better results. Any opinions on the why of this? The discussion seemed to indicate we are teaching using out of date methods.

Although I have been out of the child rearing game for 20 years, my feelings are that children motivations are crucial, and that were that we were raising, at least in my demographic of being in the top 10%, a generation of lazy, comfortable, entitled kids who somehow thought that their future was already made for them, no effort needed.

And I decided that a discussion about a Liberal Arts education fits in. Do you feel this kind of education is beneficial or not? I feel that the liberal arts agenda, that of exposing young minds to a variety of topics is important, because if gives kids a chance to be exposed and to possibly find an area that interests them as a vocation.

• Reading is an absolute must.
• Kids need math, but not advanced math unless heading to college.
• History is a must, and knowledge of other cultures is valuable.
• Other subjects like a language, the arts, horticulture, shop, mechanics, home economics, are valuable because of exposure. They broaden young minds and offer possible areas of interests for young minds to pursue if they desire.

18 REASONS THE U.S. EDUCATION SYSTEM IS FAILING
https://www.theedadvocate.org/10-reasons-the-u-s-education-system-is-failing/

 

[Expos of 1969]

An outstanding discussion on National Public Radio today about secondary education in the US, and that we spend more on education than any country, yet we are only slightly above average in reading, we suck at math, and countries who spend much less than we do are getting better results. Any opinions on the why of this? The discussion seemed to indicate we are teaching using out of date methods.

Although I have been out of the child rearing game for 20 years, my feelings are that children motivations are crucial, and that were that we were raising, at least in my demographic of being in the top 10%, a generation of lazy, comfortable, entitled kids who somehow thought that their future was already made for them, no effort needed.

And I decided that a discussion about a Liberal Arts education fits in. Do you feel this kind of education is beneficial or not? I feel that the liberal arts agenda, that of exposing young minds to a variety of topics is important, because if gives kids a chance to be exposed and to possibly find an area that interests them as a vocation.

• Reading is an absolute must.
• Kids need math, but not advanced math unless heading to college.
• History is a must, and knowledge of other cultures is valuable.
• Other subjects like a language, the arts, horticulture, shop, mechanics, home economics, are valuable because of exposure. They broaden young minds and offer possible areas of interests for young minds to pursue if they desire.

18 REASONS THE U.S. EDUCATION SYSTEM IS FAILING
https://www.theedadvocate.org/10-reasons-the-u-s-education-system-is-failing/

I agree with you but you left out what I (and others) feel is just as important as the other foundation subjects. This is Basic Personal Finance and Budgeting. Many countries (perhaps all) do not require that this subject be taught. It is one of the most essential topics and skills. The lack of this information has set more young lives on the road to ruin than has not knowing what happens in Act 2 of Hamlet.

 

[D.T.]

... not knowing what happens in Act 2 of Hamlet.

Well, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern show up

Totally agree with your point, some life literacy is never a bad thing.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I agree with you but you left out what I (and others) feel is just as important as the other foundation subjects. This is Basic Personal Finance and Budgeting. Many countries (perhaps all) do not require that this subject be taught. It is one of the most essential topics and skills. The lack of this information has set more young lives on the road to ruin than has not knowing what happens in Act 2 of Hamlet.

I would argue that both Hamlet (and not just Act 2) and something that addresses personal finance and budgeting are both valuable, and studying one should not exclude - or preclude - the study of the other.

 

[Expos of 1969]

I would argue that both Hamlet (and not just Act 2) and something that addresses personal finance and budgeting are both valuable, and studying one should not exclude - or preclude - the study of the other.

Very true.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Vocational education is sorely lacking in schools today. I remember taking shop class in junior high. We took apart a lawn mower engine and put it back together. It also included woodworking. Those classes are long gone now.

Not everyone needs/wants to go to college, but our education system is geared toward that outcome.

 

[Huntn]

Vocational education is sorely lacking in schools today. I remember taking shop class in junior high. We took apart a lawn mower engine and put it back together. It also included woodworking. Those classes are long gone now.

Not everyone needs/wants to go to college, but our education system is geared toward that outcome.

I graduated fron high school in 1971 and there was both a college prep and a vocational program. No, I can’t speak to what high schools offers today across the country, but in Minnesota there is a vocational college down the road from where we lived that teaches serious vocational courses like auto mechanic and electrician.

In secondary school, if we are not exposing our kids to history, art, and civics, we are doing them a huge disservice. I think the real discussion issue is why are we spending the most on education in the world, but getting mediocre results?

 

[Mousse]

Vocational education is important because kids need to have skills to make a living. Liberal Arts education is equally important because kids need culture. Finding the correct balance is most important.

I can't begin to count the number of times I've made a quip quoting great literary works only to receive blank stares from people. Back in my youth, I dated a very attractive girl. On the first date, I said, "Shall I come thee to a summer's day? You're hot!" *crickets* Needless to say, our relationship didn't work out.

I finally found the one, when I used that same line and she replied. "That's the first time I understood Shakespeare." Yeah right. When my love swears she is made of truth,
I do believe her, though I know she lies.

I think the real discussion issue is why are we spending the most on education in the world, but getting mediocre results?

The answer is standardized testing. Kids are being taught how to score well on standardized tests; they learn to game the game. One of my kids does well (top 97%) in standardized tests and the other does rather poorly (bottom 25%). Y'all know what? It doesn't matter. This letter from a principal in Singapore says it best.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Vocational education is important because kids need to have skills to make a living. Liberal Arts education is equally important because kids need culture. Finding the correct balance is most important.

Agreed, both are important. Currently, I believe most secondary (high schools) lean heavily to the liberal arts education and ignore vocational education.

 

[jeyf]

-lack of security and acceptance are issues students should NOT experience.
-Internet tools have reduced the reliance for long term memory retention. Yet this still seems the basis for current education. If reading a novel; you can high lite a word and my reader can real time look the word up and pronounce it. If watching "The King" on netFlix at any time one can stop and find out more than they would ever wanted to know abut Prince Hal.


the current educational system is not sustainable and a child's education could be individually address better faster on line.

the op is forgetting the engineering science
an engineering student really dosnt need that much in the way of history, art, civics, auto mechanics or house wiring.

 

[Bug-Creator]

an engineering student really dosnt need that much in the way of history, art, civics, auto mechanics or house wiring.

-> "engineers" that have no clue how things are actually done/work

 

[jpn]

to me:

undergraduate degrees are either

(1) preparatory degrees

(2) terminal degrees

(3) engineering degrees

preparatory degrees expect the graduate will go on to a school that specializes in "job training" (Medical School; Law School; Business School)

terminal degrees provide the graduate with her/his final formal upper education and are general degrees with an undergraduate level knowledge in (usually) a single area.

engineering degrees seem to me to be an exception to all degrees, as an advanced engineering degree may not be useful, so a BS level in engineering may be all that required as a final degree, and should be (in my thinking) extremely pin point focused on engineering topics only.

to all those attending a college/university undergraduate program where there is no strong and tough core curriculum requirements for graduation, you will be*
(1) less satisfied in life because you don't even know what the good life is supposed to be, and
(2) and you won't even know if you have reached the good life or not, along the way.

*except for engineers.

 

[impulse462]

an engineering student really dosnt need that much in the way of history, art, civics, auto mechanics or house wiring.

i think this is fundamentally wrong. as an engineering phd student, most of my influences as I approach my work in general come from artists and how they approach their craft. indeed, as someone who switched to engineering after my undergrad experience, i'm quite surprised at the "talked about" chasm between art and engineering. in fact, i find them both quite complimentary. maybe this is only in an academic sense, but creating new engineering techniques and applying them in various situations truly is an art. it's a sad state of affairs when disciplines are pitted against each other.

as for history, i think that's wrong as well. one of the best ways I learn about other engineering techniques is reading about how they were invented and the circumstances that led to their creation (this is both in general and for work in my area). understanding how something works technically is only one part of a larger approach to creativity in general. understanding how it was created can give valuable context which aids not only in understanding how something actually works but also how to either improve on that creation or create something new entirely while avoiding the pitfalls of past experiences

as for more-humanities inclined people, i think it is vital that they do get a rigorous STEM background as well. given how technology is going to take future stage in the the 21st century, to not understand how computing works or how social media/tech companies generate revenue is doing a disservice to being an "informed citizen". but it doesn't stop at tech. even knowing basic biology/chemistry/physics can greatly enhance someones interaction in the world to understand how the natural world around them works.

 

[jeyf]

every one is so different and these people should embrace their differences.
if someone can visualize only the pure science technology its a gift.
We are not grey globs that are cast into the generic past.

Most modern product development is a team effort. Say a lake front office tower design likely you are hiring out the soils engineering aspect. Also likely you have a legal team. A group doing safety risk managment.

not all science engineering law business, trades... are well rounded.

 

[Tomorrow]

preparatory degrees expect the graduate will go on to a school that specializes in "job training" (Medical School; Law School; Business School)

<snip>

engineering degrees seem to me to be an exception to all degrees, as an advanced engineering degree may not be useful, so a BS level in engineering may be all that required as a final degree.

An engineering degree is considered a "professional" degree, the same as law, accounting, medicine, teaching, etc. It assumes that after graduation you will go to work in the field for some period of time and learn the profession, and at some point become licensed. It is true that many engineers do not ever become licensed, but the degree is tailored that way. It gives you a foundation for learning your discipline on the job.

 

[jpn]

An engineering degree is considered a "professional" degree, the same as law, accounting, medicine, teaching, etc. It assumes that after graduation you will go to work in the field for some period of time and learn the profession, and at some point become licensed. It is true that many engineers do not ever become licensed, but the degree is tailored that way. It gives you a foundation for learning your discipline on the job.

exactly what i said

 

[Gutwrench]

I don’t understand what the topic is intended to be about.

 

[Tomorrow]

exactly what i said

Is it?

to me:

undergraduate degrees are either

(1) preparatory degrees

(2) terminal degrees

(3) engineering degrees

preparatory degrees expect the graduate will go on to a school that specializes in "job training" (Medical School; Law School; Business School)

terminal degrees provide the graduate with her/his final formal upper education and are general degrees.

engineering degrees seem to me to be an exception to all degrees, as an advanced engineering degree may not be useful, so a BS level in engineering may be all that required as a final degree.

You quite specifically made a distinction between an engineering degree ("an exception to all degrees") and what you categorized as preparatory degrees. My post includes engineering degrees with that group.

Did you misstate your intent? Did I misinterpret your words?

 

[Huntn]

-lack of security and acceptance are issues students should NOT experience.
-Internet tools have reduced the reliance for long term memory retention. Yet this still seems the basis for current education. If reading a novel; you can high lite a word and my reader can real time look the word up and pronounce it. If watching "The King" on netFlix at any time one can stop and find out more than they would ever wanted to know abut Prince Hal.


the current educational system is not sustainable and a child's education could be individually address better faster on line.

the op is forgetting the engineering science
an engineering student really dosnt need that much in the way of history, art, civics, auto mechanics or house wiring.

You are missing the point about philosophy behind a liberal arts education. It’s just not preparation for a job, it is to prepare the students for advanced education, and designed to produce a well grounded and educated individual exposed to a variety of topics, including how to speak and write correctly, basic math at a minimum, an appreciation and understanding of human history of what has happened before, and exposure to the arts.

 

[jpn]

Is it?



You quite specifically made a distinction between an engineering degree ("an exception to all degrees") and what you categorized as preparatory degrees. My post includes engineering degrees with that group.

Did you misstate your intent? Did I misinterpret your words?

quote
engineering degrees seem to me to be an exception to all degrees, as an advanced engineering degree may not be useful, so a BS level in engineering may be all that required as a final degree.
endquote

 

[jeyf]

Missing the point:
The Big Bang Theory - Sheldon seems to have gotten his prize despite not being well grounded.

embrace the good that makes you different

acceptance, respect, whatever