Light Peak / Thunderbolt: It makes sense now!

[Piggie]

Hate to sound like a complete noob here, but...why is Thunderbolt / Lightpeak so impressive?

I mean...I already have HDMI 1.4, which is above 10 gbps, in my TV, surround sound receiver, and Blu-ray player. Thunderbolt actually has a lower thoroughput (barely) and in practice the same capacity. And HDMI 1.4 is two-way, and can carry a 3D 1080p stream along with 7.1 surround sound and network data...I think that's in line with the best Light Peak demo I've seen.

Seems you are right:

The HDMI and DisplayPort connectors require more than twice the 10 Gbit/s that Light Peak was proposed to include in its higher-end implementations – very much higher than what commentators expect Copper Peak to be capable of. Given announcements that Intel would support DisplayPort 1.2 and HDMI 1.4a exclusively, it seems unlikely that Light Peak will compete with them in the near future:

So I will ask the same question as you then, sort of.....

Why don't we just use HDMI for all sorts of connections then?

 

[gloss]

Hate to sound like a complete noob here, but...why is Thunderbolt / Lightpeak so impressive?

I mean...I already have HDMI 1.4, which is above 10 gbps, in my TV, surround sound receiver, and Blu-ray player. Thunderbolt actually has a lower thoroughput (barely) and in practice the same capacity. And HDMI 1.4 is two-way, and can carry a 3D 1080p stream along with 7.1 surround sound and network data...I think that's in line with the best Light Peak demo I've seen.

Well, Light Peak is currently 10gbps bidirectional on copper (and 100gbps peak in the future), is daisy-chainable, and supports multiple protocols simultaneously. HDMI just barely hits 10gbps one-way with a 100mbps bidirectional channel. You just don't see people daisy-chaining HDMI.

Light Peak also seems capable of replacing not only external connection options, but internal PC interconnects (SATA, etc). I thought this demo was pretty impressive.

 

[Piggie]

From another perspective. Perhaps from a more realistic standpoint?

http://www.wirelessgoodness.com/tag/light-peak/

 

[cloakedpegasus]

Hate to sound like a complete noob here, but...why is Thunderbolt / Lightpeak so impressive?

I mean...I already have HDMI 1.4, which is above 10 gbps, in my TV, surround sound receiver, and Blu-ray player. Thunderbolt actually has a lower thoroughput (barely) and in practice the same capacity. And HDMI 1.4 is two-way, and can carry a 3D 1080p stream along with 7.1 surround sound and network data...I think that's in line with the best Light Peak demo I've seen.

Yea I think this iteration of Thunderbolt that we're hearing about is pretty weak. It's OK but nothing revolutionary.

 

[bmb012]

From another perspective. Perhaps from a more realistic standpoint?

http://www.wirelessgoodness.com/tag/light-peak/

That's a terrible article. All I hear is adopting new technologies is haaaard!

LightPeak only needs one use to justify it's existence. Plug new Macbook into new monitor. Plug EVERYTHING ELSE into monitor. If Apple builds LightPeak into miniDP, then there's no point in it not existing.

It doesn't sound like it's trying to replace USB, we're just missing a single cable solution. There it is.

I trust Apple on this one, using Firewire to connect an external drive, video camera, or use target disk mode was eye opening in the land of USB.

 

[Piggie]

That's a terrible article. All I hear is adopting new technologies is haaaard!

LightPeak only needs one use to justify it's existence. Plug new Macbook into new monitor. Plug EVERYTHING ELSE into monitor. If Apple builds LightPeak into miniDP, then there's no point in it not existing.

It doesn't sound like it's trying to replace USB, we're just missing a single cable solution. There it is.

I trust Apple on this one, using Firewire to connect an external drive, video camera, or use target disk mode was eye opening in the land of USB.

But why not just use HDMI instead if HDMI is already way faster than current lightpeak and it's been a standard for a few years now already.

Must admit I'm a bit confused on this one.

Or I understand latest Displayport is faster still.

So Lightpeak is a lot faster, bandwidth, than Display Port is it ?

 

[gloss]

But why not just use HDMI instead if HDMI is already way faster than current lightpeak and it's been a standard for a few years now already.

Must admit I'm a bit confused on this one.

Or I understand latest Displayport is faster still.

So Lightpeak is a lot faster, bandwidth, than Display Port is it ?

Pretty sure HDMI only supports audio/video protocols (except 1.4a, which includes the aforementioned 100mbps ethernet channel). Don't think it's used for general data transfer.

 

[MrWillie]

Does it not make you laugh reading this thread.

Again and again over the last months as soon as anyone mentions that a Honeycomb tablet has a better technical spec than something Apple offers, people are shouted down, saying specs don't matter, it's only tech nerds that go on about such things. It's only the user experience that matters.

Yet as soon as Apple offers something, or may be offering something with a higher spec, that, let's be honest, the man in the street is probably not going to really understand, it's suddenly different now.

Now it's said people need to move forward to new better technologies, and Apple will lead the way and others will follow.

Funny how rules change isn't it?

Can't help feeling if Apple had USB 2 and Xoom had Light peak, it would be a case of Light peak is pointless in a tablet, USB 2 is fine for what it needs to do, and specs like this are only for nerds to worry about.

But nobody is saying ohhh, this looks good, look at the specs, will Android catch up ? They are saying (at least I am), "Cool, Apple is the first PC maker out with Light Speed, how innovative. "

From another perspective. Perhaps from a more realistic standpoint?

http://www.wirelessgoodness.com/tag/light-peak/

Article missed it entirely. MBs will still have USB ports. What happens is next year, I decide I want a new external drive, I now have a choice, I can buy a light peak drive. I don't need to replace all of my peripherals all at once. One at a time, as needed or wanted. USB will be hanging around for a while.

 

[Piggie]

Pretty sure HDMI only supports audio/video protocols (except 1.4a, which includes the aforementioned 100mbps ethernet channel). Don't think it's used for general data transfer.

How can it only support video protocols.
It's a length of wire.

I don't think metal wire knows what the electrical signals moving along it are for.

 

[Pressure]

Apple was the first to adopt USB? Show me where thats true?

Temporarily brainfart there on my behalf.

I meant, of course, as I said earlier that Apple helped make it mainstream.

 

[MrWillie]

How can it only support video protocols.
It's a length of wire.

I don't think metal wire knows what the electrical signals moving along it are for.

HDMI cable is a length of wire. The rest of the HDMI system (electronics, firmware program) is what determines what goes down that piece of wire. Light Speed is more than video.

 

[camelsnot]

EXACTLY!!! this really does nothing but tighten the barrier around the Apple ecosystem...

he means not even hardware vendors sell lightpeak enabled devices yet. Lightpeak will show up on virtually all motherboards by years end. Apple instead should've had invested on upgrading all USB ports to 3.0 at their last refresh. They failed. Now you'll have a lightpeak port you can't do anything with.

 

[camelsnot]

Temporarily brainfart there on my behalf.

I meant, of course, as I said earlier that Apple helped make it mainstream.

how so? More PCs were sold than Macs when USB was introduced. PCs made USB mainstream. Apple tried forcing FW800 to the masses... didn't work out quite so well. Only a fraction of FW external devices were sold compared to USB.

Gotta love fanboy claims.

 

[Pressure]

But why not just use HDMI instead if HDMI is already way faster than current lightpeak and it's been a standard for a few years now already.

Must admit I'm a bit confused on this one.

Or I understand latest Displayport is faster still.

So Lightpeak is a lot faster, bandwidth, than Display Port is it ?

DisplayPort supports up to 17.28 Gbit/s of effective video bandwidth (enough for supporting 4 simultaneous 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz streams).

But that is limited to powering the video signal + sound.

LightPeak, however, can replace SCSI, SATA, USB, FireWire, Ethernet and USB.

The demo unit only offered 10Gb/sec bidirectional bandwidth, which is nearly half of what DisplayPort provides.

 

[Pressure]

how so? More PCs were sold than Macs when USB was introduced. PCs made USB mainstream. Apple tried forcing FW800 to the masses... didn't work out quite so well. Only a fraction of FW external devices were sold compared to USB.

Gotta love fanboy claims.

The popularization of USB:
Today we use USB ports to hook up all sorts of devices to our computers, but it wasn't until Apple released the 1998 iMac that USB as a defacto standard began to take shape.
The original iMac was the first computer to ship exclusively with USB ports, as it did away with famed legacy ports like ADB and SCSI. At the time, computers that happened to ship with USB ports also came with other peripheral connections like serial and parallel ports. The end result was that no one technology was able to leapfrog ahead of the pack and become a standard. After all, why focus exclusively on USB when you had other peripheral connections to consider?

The iMac essentially was the impetus for developers to start choosing USB ports over non-USB ports. Today, USB ports come standard with every computer, and you can thank Apple's iMac for that.

I don't know how I could miss the following things Apple also helped making mainstream: the laptop trackpad, the mouse, the Graphic User Interface, Typography and MultiTouch technology.

FireWire is vastly superior to USB 2.0 - I don't quite understand why you seem so miffed about it. Many professional devices simply cannot run reliable on USB due to latency issues and bandwidth.

The main problem is the USB protocol stack supports nothing like RAID, NCQ, latency requirements or real time processing and it is limited to a single device per connection.

 

[DeathChill]

From another perspective. Perhaps from a more realistic standpoint?

http://www.wirelessgoodness.com/tag/light-peak/

This guy acts as if you have to run out and replace every single thing right now. Of course that's ridiculous and technology moves forward. Should we never move forward so you don't have to buy anything new?

 

[gloss]

Gotta love fanboy claims.

See the previous page. Even IBM credits the iMac with jump-starting USB 1.1 adoption.

 

[gloss]

DisplayPort supports up to 17.28 Gbit/s of effective video bandwidth (enough for supporting 4 simultaneous 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz streams).

But that is limited to powering the video signal + sound.

LightPeak, however, can replace SCSI, SATA, USB, FireWire, Ethernet and USB.

The demo unit only offered 10Gb/sec bidirectional bandwidth, which is nearly half of what DisplayPort provides.

DisplayPort is not bidirectional, though. Light Peak currently offers 10Gb/sec each direction, simultaneously.

 

[ThE.MeSsEnGeR]

Really? It moves forward? No kidding?

So you dont believe in backwards compatible while the transistion is going on from one standard to another(if it even becomes a standard)?

I do believe in that, and that's exactly what happened when USB 2.0 was out it was backwards compatible with 1.1, and 3.0 was also. But when time comes for a total change, you can't account for backwards compatibility. When CDs where starting to show up, were they backwards compatible with Floppy Disks?

 

[k995]

Stop being such muppets!

Apple made USB and FireWire mainstream.

And you talk about muppets? Getting kinda fed up with that apple invented or made mainstream just about everything the last decades.

No they didnt, firewire never was mainstream and USB 1.0 dates back to 95 while apple started using it in 98 .

And with a 3 to 4 % market share they couldnt do a lot of influencing.

History have shown again and again how Apple were the first to either adopt (USB, FireWire, EFI, DisplayPort) or ditch (Serial Port, Floppy Disk).

Neither of those but USB was any succes.

I personally think it just leads to added trouble when trying to hook up an imac.

But apple is coming back from this, mac mini had hdmi, as it should.

The point with LightPeak is that it basically can replace all other connectors. I can see why Apple would want this.

chicken and egg story, right now there is 0 devices with LightPeak , I have no problem with it being besides others, yet knowing apple it will usualy be replacing and everyone will have to work once more with adapters.

 

[newdeal]

Does it not make you laugh reading this thread.

Again and again over the last months as soon as anyone mentions that a Honeycomb tablet has a better technical spec than something Apple offers, people are shouted down, saying specs don't matter, it's only tech nerds that go on about such things. It's only the user experience that matters.

Yet as soon as Apple offers something, or may be offering something with a higher spec, that, let's be honest, the man in the street is probably not going to really understand, it's suddenly different now.

Now it's said people need to move forward to new better technologies, and Apple will lead the way and others will follow.

Funny how rules change isn't it?

Can't help feeling if Apple had USB 2 and Xoom had Light peak, it would be a case of Light peak is pointless in a tablet, USB 2 is fine for what it needs to do, and specs like this are only for nerds to worry about.

Light peak does impact user experiance...imagine being able to sync your iphone and fill the whole thing with new data in 5 seconds instead of 20-30 minutes.

 

[Piggie]

Light peak does impact user experiance...imagine being able to sync your iphone and fill the whole thing with new data in 5 seconds instead of 20-30 minutes.

That would be brilliant.

Can the CPU and other circuitry inside a low power device such as an iPhone or iPad keep up with this?

It's like now with the iPad. You could plug the iPad into a million megabit fibre internet connection, it would still not make it render a web page any faster.

With all these things it has to be a balance. There is no point in fitting a 1000cc engine into a bicycle frame.

If connection speed if the thing holding back the iPhone and iPad when it comes to syncing then fair enough, let's improve the connection.

 

[gloss]

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Stop being such muppets!

Apple made USB and FireWire mainstream.

And you talk about muppets? Getting kinda fed up with that apple invented or made mainstream just about everything the last decades.

No they didnt, firewire never was mainstream and USB 1.0 dates back to 95 while apple started using it in 98 .

And with a 3 to 4 % market share they couldnt do a lot of influencing.

History have shown again and again how Apple were the first to either adopt (USB, FireWire, EFI, DisplayPort) or ditch (Serial Port, Floppy Disk).

Neither of those but USB was any succes.

I personally think it just leads to added trouble when trying to hook up an imac.

But apple is coming back from this, mac mini had hdmi, as it should.

The point with LightPeak is that it basically can replace all other connectors. I can see why Apple would want this.

chicken and egg story, right now there is 0 devices with LightPeak , I have no problem with it being besides others, yet knowing apple it will usualy be replacing and everyone will have to work once more with adapters.

You should tell this to IBM. I'm sure they'd appreciate your edits to their 'History of USB' article.

 

[andrewsd]

EXACTLY!!! this really does nothing but tighten the barrier around the Apple ecosystem...

Unless other manufactures use this. Remember that the Display Port is avalaible to any PC manufacture to use loyality free. So now they may just adapt the "Display Port" for use with "Light Peak/Thunderbolt".


It is funny though becasue I remember when a lot of people on this forum board where complaining when Apple started taking away firewire from it computers and now people are complaining/not happy with a port that is faster and more "open" then fire wire! GO FIGURE you can never make some people happy.

 

[ghostlyorb]

Do you guys remember the rumors going around of the iPad 2 getting a Mini Displayport connector?

This makes sense now! It's not 'just' a MDP connector, it's a Thunderbolt connector! It's basically replacing the Dock connector for video out and high-speed data transfers - although I hope Apple will make a new, backwards-compatible dock connector, I think they'll put this new connector on the iPad 2 and then later on, on the iPhone/iPod Touch.

I have no idea how Micro-USB (A standard Apple says they'll start supporting) will fit in with this, but perhaps they will supply a converter from uUSB to dock to make this happen.

Still, the rumor-mills are all making sense now, right?

Very good point! Makes me want the new iPad THAT much more...ugh is it Wednesday already?