Linux vs macOS

[Feek]

Mac OS server is getting worse by every release.

I didn't even realise macOS server was still available, I thought it was canned a few years ago.
(/edit - Ahh, I see it was discontinued earlier this year)

Agreed about centOS, I'm responsible for a couple of remotely installed servers, both running it.

 

[wicknix]

just googled "how to install apps in Linux 2022"

If you had to google that, it just proves my point that you havent used a mainstream distro lately.

 

[Feek]

If you had to google that, it just proves my point that you havent used a mainstream distro lately.

I didn't have to, I did it on purpose, specifically to see what the internet said - The fact that one of the very first results goes straight into terminal stuff and technobabble that the average person won't understand simply confirms to me that my post about the subject was correct.

 

[wicknix]

Do you believe everything you read on teh interwebs? Your argument is invalid. Have a nice day.

 

[babyexercise]

Linux won't gain mainstream popularity until it's as easy to install software as it is in macOS or Windows.

Plus there's still far too much snobbery from advanced users who tell you to open a terminal, add a repo, load a git, reticulate a spline, chmod this, chown that, etc etc. They assume you know what to do when the majority of people will just look at them, back away and re-install Windows.

That is what suppose to happen and good for security. If Linux can become 5% just because Windows 11 requirements then it is better than expectation.

 

[bobcomer]

Installing software is as easy as point and click.

Not always! It's better than it used to be, but still some things are a horror.

 

[pastrychef]

No matter how hard I try, eventually, I need to launch Terminal when using Linux. As far as I'm concerned, it's unavoidable.

 

[Mikael H]

That is what suppose to happen and good for security. If Linux can become 5% just because Windows 11 requirements then it is better than expectation.

As stated earlier, regular people don’t replace operating systems. They buy a new computer. And if they buy one now from any mainstream outlet it will run Windows or macOS, not Fedora or Ubuntu.

Not always! It's better than it used to be, but still some things are a horror.

No matter how hard I try, eventually, I need to launch Terminal when using Linux. As far as I'm concerned, it's unavoidable.

I have set up laptops running Mint for non-nerd relatives earlier; connecting a mail client to their service provider, connecting printers/scanners, and showing them the ropes with Open- or LibreOffice and a web browser. With that initial work done, things simply worked for them and they never complained during the lifespan of the computer. No terminal required.

Nowadays my first recommendation is to get an iPad instead: same concept but even less that can potentially break after initial configuration - and once that’s done, migrating to the next iPad a few years down the line is completely effortless.

 

[sgtaylor5]

Last night, I did some more research on GNUcash and I don't think it's going to do what I need it to do for my business (COGS and Owner's Draw sub-accounts). Can't find another comparable software, and I'm not going to run my business on Excel - too much opportunity for unintended error.

So Linux is not an option. I think I would have totally switched years ago if there had been an better option for business accounting in Linux.

 

[pastrychef]

I have set up laptops running Mint for non-nerd relatives earlier; connecting a mail client to their service provider, connecting printers/scanners, and showing them the ropes with Open- or LibreOffice and a web browser. With that initial work done, things simply worked for them and they never complained during the lifespan of the computer. No terminal required.

I don't doubt that. If the users adhere to just using the two or three apps you set up, I'm certain it will run indefinitely without them ever needing to launch Terminal.

However, for those who venture further and start trying to do more it can be a very different story.

 

[babyexercise]

As stated earlier, regular people don’t replace operating systems. They buy a new computer. And if they buy one now from any mainstream outlet it will run Windows or macOS, not Fedora or Ubuntu.





I have set up laptops running Mint for non-nerd relatives earlier; connecting a mail client to their service provider, connecting printers/scanners, and showing them the ropes with Open- or LibreOffice and a web browser. With that initial work done, things simply worked for them and they never complained during the lifespan of the computer. No terminal required.

Nowadays my first recommendation is to get an iPad instead: same concept but even less that can potentially break after initial configuration - and once that’s done, migrating to the next iPad a few years down the line is completely effortless.

Well a lot of people don’t want to just full away their working existing computers. They could upgrade to Windows 10 for free last time, some of they may find out Linux is a solution when they cannot upgrade to Windows 11 even they want to pay this time.

 

[babyexercise]

No matter how hard I try, eventually, I need to launch Terminal when using Linux. As far as I'm concerned, it's unavoidable.

I think you would need terminal too for MacOS if you do a lot of different not simple stuff.

 

[Mikael H]

I think you would need terminal too for MacOS if you do a lot of different not simple stuff.

Well, there’s a difference between “has to” and “benefits from”. For a power user, being able to perform tasks programmatically is a huge timesaver and a removal of human factor type errors from repetitive tasks. A huge part of my time in Windows is spent in the terminal too, switching between PowerShell and WSL depending on the type of work I’m doing.

I would still argue that non-power-users can perform all normal non-power-user tasks in Linux without ever hitting the terminal just like in Windows or macOS, and that if you’re the kind of person who futzes about with exotic hardware or with developer tools you probably should know your way around a shell anyway.

 

[Mikael H]

Well a lot of people don’t want to just full away their working existing computers. They could upgrade to Windows 10 for free last time, some of they may find out Linux is a solution when they cannot upgrade to Windows 11 even they want to pay this time.

From what I can see, Windows 10 will go out of support in 2025. By then a computer that can’t run Win11 will be pretty old in computer terms, given that everybody scrambled to make new computers hardware compatible when Microsoft released the hardware requirements. Business class computers that are incompatible will be 5-7 years old at that time. Home computers more like 4 years. (I don’t expect regular people to prefer installing a TPM2 over buying a new computer).
Also remember how many people completely skipped even Windows 10: Some 16% or so of desktop Windows installations still run versions older than Win10, and that number was way higher a few years ago.

So no, don’t expect a huge exodus from the Windows world for religious or monetary reasons.

 

[babyexercise]

From what I can see, Windows 10 will go out of support in 2025. By then a computer that can’t run Win11 will be pretty old in computer terms, given that everybody scrambled to make new computers hardware compatible when Microsoft released the hardware requirements. Business class computers that are incompatible will be 5-7 years old at that time. Home computers more like 4 years. (I don’t expect regular people to prefer installing a TPM2 over buying a new computer).
Also remember how many people completely skipped even Windows 10: Some 16% or so of desktop Windows installations still run versions older than Win10, and that number was way higher a few years ago.

So no, don’t expect a huge exodus from the Windows world for religious or monetary reasons.

Hardwares annual speed different are so small for last ten years or something. For normal daily stuff, 10 years old computers are not much different from top tier new computers. I use both kinds.

 

[Mikael H]

Hardwares annual speed different are so small for last ten years or something. For normal daily stuff, 10 years old computers are not much different from top tier new computers. I use both kinds.

10 year old consumer grade computers with 10 year old consumer grade specs aren't any fun at all to use at this point. And again, people in general don't open up their boxes to replace a spinning drive with the best-performing SSD their bus allows, or to bring the 4 or 8 GB of RAM up to 16 to make a low-core-count machine perform okayish with today's hardware requirements.

A computer that was good in 2015 will still be a perfectly usable machine in 2025, but I would say that a person for whom that machine has worked for ten years will figure it can keep running on unsupported software until it dies. A relative still insists on using a hand-me-down HP laptop that runs Windows 7 and Office 2010 for anything that might require a printout: The computer works, the printer works, and getting a printer that works with his iPad (via AirPrint) is an unnecessary $200 expense in his mind, as would be renting the office suite via O365 or paying a one-time fee for a newer version of a program where the current version is perfectly fine.

EDIT: My point was that such a person will not install Linux. They simply won't change anything until they have to, and when they do, a new computer it is. And the new computer will be running Win11.

 

[babyexercise]

10 year old consumer grade computers with 10 year old consumer grade specs aren't any fun at all to use at this point. And again, people in general don't open up their boxes to replace a spinning drive with the best-performing SSD their bus allows, or to bring the 4 or 8 GB of RAM up to 16 to make a low-core-count machine perform okayish with today's hardware requirements.

A computer that was good in 2015 will still be a perfectly usable machine in 2025, but I would say that a person for whom that machine has worked for ten years will figure it can keep running on unsupported software until it dies. A relative still insists on using a hand-me-down HP laptop that runs Windows 7 and Office 2010 for anything that might require a printout: The computer works, the printer works, and getting a printer that works with his iPad (via AirPrint) is an unnecessary $200 expense in his mind, as would be renting the office suite via O365 or paying a one-time fee for a newer version of a program where the current version is perfectly fine.

EDIT: My point was that such a person will not install Linux. They simply won't change anything until they have to, and when they do, a new computer it is. And the new computer will be running Win11.

Yeah I agree most of the non IT people would not try to replace hard disk with ssd and increase ram to extend the lifespan of the computer.

 

[ADGrant]

I think you would need terminal too for MacOS if you do a lot of different not simple stuff.

A software developer would probably need or want to use the terminal at some point. My wife has used a Mac for years. I don't think she even knows what the terminal is.

 

[gpat]

10 year old consumer grade computers with 10 year old consumer grade specs aren't any fun at all to use at this point. And again, people in general don't open up their boxes to replace a spinning drive with the best-performing SSD their bus allows, or to bring the 4 or 8 GB of RAM up to 16 to make a low-core-count machine perform okayish with today's hardware requirements.

There are plenty of low-budget casual customers interested in those machines, either gotten as a gift from relatives/friends, or bought second-hand in refurbished stores, and in both cases the machines are pre-upgraded from their previous owners.

Their use should be encouraged, both for ecological purposes, and because prosumer PCs from 2012 are much nicer machines than $200 2022 laptops anyway.

I, for one, could probably take care of my daily workflow with a 15" 2012 rMBP, if it still received security updates.
Not as smoothly as I do with my M1 Pro, but work would still get done.
Apple is dropping support for those machines for greed, plain and simple. Even if they couldn't receive the latest OS version, security patches should always be provided.

Food for thought: on YouTube you can find videos of an iMac G3 running OpenBSD, latest version from 2021 (!!!!!), and being safely connected to the Internet, with the same level of security patches compared to a modern PC. Also not completely unusable for light websites.
Sure, it's an extreme example, but there is no reason to trash old hardware that can be repurposed, even if it is for niche use-cases.
Imagine if Apple released a bootable OS for those machines, enabling old Macs to even browse only one Safari tab at a time and nothing else.
There would be a lot less waste around, that's for sure.

Actually it appears that Google is doing kind of the same thing with ChromeOS Flex (not for PPC Macs though).

 

[pastrychef]

There are plenty of low-budget casual customers interested in those machines, either gotten as a gift from relatives/friends, or bought second-hand in refurbished stores, and in both cases the machines are pre-upgraded from their previous owners.

Their use should be encouraged, both for ecological purposes, and because prosumer PCs from 2012 are much nicer machines than $200 2022 laptops anyway.

I, for one, could probably take care of my daily workflow with a 15" 2012 rMBP, if it still received security updates.
Not as smoothly as I do with my M1 Pro, but work would still get done.
Apple is dropping support for those machines for greed, plain and simple. Even if they couldn't receive the latest OS version, security patches should always be provided.

Food for thought: on YouTube you can find videos of an iMac G3 running OpenBSD, latest version from 2021 (!!!!!), and being safely connected to the Internet, with the same level of security patches compared to a modern PC. Also not completely unusable for light websites.
Sure, it's an extreme example, but there is no reason to trash old hardware that can be repurposed, even if it is for niche use-cases.
Imagine if Apple released a bootable OS for those machines, enabling old Macs to even browse only one Safari tab at a time and nothing else.
There would be a lot less waste around, that's for sure.

Actually it appears that Google is doing kind of the same thing with ChromeOS Flex (not for PPC Macs though).

We also have to consider how much power something like that iMac consumes. It would not surprise me if a Raspberry Pi can outperform that thing while only using a few watts of power.

 

[gpat]

We also have to consider how much power something like that iMac consumes. It would not surprise me if a Raspberry Pi can outperform that thing while only using a few watts of power.

Sure, that was an extreme example, but energy efficiency has been really competitive starting with the Core 2 Duos... we're talking about 15yo machines.
A modern system would be of course more efficient, but not enough to justify trashing the old one even for casual use in my opinion.

 

[pastrychef]

Sure, that was an extreme example, but energy efficiency has been really competitive starting with the Core 2 Duos... we're talking about 15yo machines.
A modern system would be of course more efficient, but not enough to justify trashing the old one even for casual use in my opinion.

Well, a Core 2 Duo E8400 has a TDP of 65W and I've never seen my Pi 4 use more than 7.5W... Is the environmental impact larger to keep using the old system or to replace it? Don't forget, the E8400 also needs fans to cool it which will just add to the power consumption.

 

[gpat]

Well, a Core 2 Duo E8400 has a TDP of 65W and I've never seen my Pi 4 use more than 7.5W... Is the environmental impact larger to keep using the old system or to replace it? Don't forget, the E8400 also needs fans to cool it which will just add to the power consumption.

I had no idea that the Pi got so powerful, but still it provides a much different user experience compared to a traditional computer.
A non-experienced user would be much better off with a recycled notebook anywhere <15 years old with a mainstream OS.
So many aspects of the Pi are different, starting from lack of SATA storage to different app compatibility.
Speaking for myself, I use an old ASUS laptop with an i3-3217u as an home server.
It does anything the Pi can do as an home server, needs no peripherals to function, and I can also RDP from my M1 MBP to run Windows x86 apps without having to deal with the mess that is Parallels today.
Its only flaw is that the RAM was already being soldered when I got it as new, so I'm stuck with 4GB forever. Sadly, the planned obsolescence had already started.

 

[pastrychef]

I had no idea that the Pi got so powerful, but still it provides a much different user experience compared to a traditional computer.
A non-experienced user would be much better off with a recycled notebook anywhere <15 years old with a mainstream OS.
So many aspects of the Pi are different, starting from lack of SATA storage to different app compatibility.
Speaking for myself, I use an old ASUS laptop with an i3-3217u as an home server.
It does anything the Pi can do as an home server, needs no peripherals to function, and I can also RDP from my M1 MBP to run Windows x86 apps without having to deal with the mess that is Parallels today.
Its only flaw is that the RAM was already being soldered when I got it as new, so I'm stuck with 4GB forever. Sadly, the planned obsolescence had already started.

The Raspberry Pi 4 is quite capable of delivering a decent user experience. There are plenty of variants of Linux available from Pi OS to Ubuntu (yes, full desktop version is available as well as "lite" version).

I use my Pi as a server too. I have it running over 20 Docker containers at the moment. It runs rock solid 24/7 off of a 5v 2.4A power adaptor and is passively cooled.

If there's a need for SATA, it can be done through USB. When the E8400 was current, I think IDE drives were still in use and SATA 1 was just starting to get a foothold. As you can see below, SATA over USB on the Pi performs fairly well. I doubt SATA from the E8400 era can keep up.

Btw, Pi 4s are available with 8GB RAM.

Source:https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/fastest-usb-storage-options-raspberry-pi


I believe that under many circumstances, the use of older, less efficient hardware is more detrimental environmentally than new hardware.

 

[mattspace]

We also have to consider how much power something like that iMac consumes. It would not surprise me if a Raspberry Pi can outperform that thing while only using a few watts of power.

Probably something in the vicinity of toasting a couple of slices of bread, boiling a kettle, running a clothes dryer for a few minutes, and about 1/100,000th the power of manufacturing a Raspberry Pi to do the same task.