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I still would point out that 30% vs. .575% is too much to accept the former as fine, while the latter gets death threats... whether one is laid out ahead of time or not.

Similarly, if .575% after the fact can "throw a big wrench into whether some company can turn a profit or not", then 30% should represent almost every other tool in that toolbox.

Hot Dog. Do you realize how many software patents there are? (I may even be named as co-inventor a few that haven't expired yet).

If those thousands and thousands of software patent holder (well written or poorly/loosely written) now all start coming after their 0.5% (especially after hearing about any Lodsys's success), hmmm... that comes to over a 1000% loss on every app sold by every dev. Sell a 99 cent app and pay over $10 in royalties on each sale. App development sure sounds tempting to the small dev now.

With Apple, there's only one hand in the dev's pocket.
 
I really home someone gets the DOJ involved here. This is a prime example of the misuse if IP. These guys are terrorists, the new mafia.

From a legal standpoint you are correct. In my opinion and in that of many others the system improperly allows technological ideas to be held for ransom, stymieing competition and preventing adequate and timely access to technology that could improve peoples lives. I know this example isn't really one of the life altering concepts, but in reality it is within the same precedent.

So if they aren't doing anything legally wrong, why would the DOJ get involved? You aren't making sense.
 
Hot Dog. Do you realize how many software patents there are? (I may even be named as co-inventor a few that haven't expired yet).

If those thousands and thousands of software patent holder (well written or poorly/loosely written) now all start coming after their 0.5% (especially after hearing about any Lodsys's success), hmmm... that comes to over a 1000% loss on every app sold by every dev. Sell a 99 cent app and pay over $10 in royalties on each sale. App development sure sounds tempting to the small dev now.

With Apple, there's only one hand in the dev's pocket.

Please. Apple's one hand takes 30% right up front. However, the other hand is patenting software functions rapidly. If thousands and thousands of software patent holders make their move for .5%, Apple will have a whole bunch of those thousands and thousands of patents, taking .5% times however many Apple holds. Microsoft too. Adobe. Etc.

This is not Lodsys vs. Apple. And every software patent ever written doesn't apply- else some of them would have and/or will come forward regardless of how this Lodsys thing goes. You seek patent protection for something original you create. You pay up (big) for that patent because you believe owning it will give you an ROI at least bigger than what the entire cost in securing the patent and/or defending it will cost.

If you think you are associated with a few software patents did you cough up the money for the patents? If you didn't pay for them, you're probably not an owner of those patents. I too have come up with all kinds of software coding approaches over my programming life. But if I didn't pay for patents on that software, I don't actually have dozens or hundreds or "thousands and thousands" of patents on software. What's the difference? Apparently this Lodsys own patents that were formally applied for, paid for, and won. In my case, I haven't applied for, paid for or won any patents for novel software concepts or approaches. They have a claim good enough that Apple actually chose to license their patent for Apple-created apps. I have no such claim.

But, all that said, I think the very best possible scenario would be for thousands upon thousands of software patent holders to come forward at the same time all seeking compensation for their patent infringements. Maybe then, the whole concept of patenting software could get dismissed (which would hurt massive patent portfolio-holding players like Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, etc) more than little guys holding a small portfolio of software patents or even a single patent.

So, I hope this does inspire all of them to come forward and demand compensation, so that the inevitable overhaul of the patent system could be forced by such group action, and maybe the other flaws in that patent system could get addressed at the same time.
 
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In my opinion and in that of many others the system improperly allows technological ideas to be held for ransom, stymieing competition and preventing adequate and timely access to technology that could improve peoples lives.

You seem to assume that these technological ideas would even come into existence and be published promptly without the incentive of huge potential ransom income. If it doesn't exist, it's hard for it to improve people's lives.

So explain why so many current medical advances come out of profit making corporations vs. non-profits? Maybe your friend can live longer with those expensive new treatments or widgets whose multi-million dollar safety trials were paid for by very richly profiting corporations? Or possibly some non-profit university would have eventually come up with the treatment... a few decades after your friend was dead.

That's the interesting trade-off.
 
Popular app developers shouldn't have all the fun...

Since I'm sure there are tons of apps making only a few bucks in IAPs, their developers should band together and demand to license them to Lodsys. Great way to beat them at their own game by tying them up with paperwork for a tiny royalty. ;)
 
If Lodsys is successful with this tactic you can be sure that many more will follow. There are mountains of frivolous software patents that could be asserted against iOS developers.

For those that have been notified of infringement, please use an organization to work as a team to fight. I've mentioned one such org here before: PUBPAT. They may well be interested in helping in this case. They have helped small developers in the past with similar claims (one such claim was for on-line leaderboards). Instead of sending the 0.575% to Lodsys, send it as a donation to PUBPAT.

If you do not fight this expect more lawyers to stick their hands in your pocket.
 
The original statements from devs suggest they are also being hit just for having a button in their Lite version, that is a simple link to the full version on the App Store. As clicking that button does nothing but go to the app's description page, there is no proof that the click resulted in a sale. LodSys is merely outlining the IAP fee rate, as it can be calculated. It remains to be seen what the rate for having an Upgrade button is. My guess is that it is a large flat fee, as sales cannot be proven.
Why can't sales be proven?
 
20 years ago? I need to get on writing some really vague patents about robots and computerized cars and other future stuff. If I write enough, some of them have to come true.

My thoughts exactly. I'm putting in my patents NOW for warp drives, space fold drives, dog houses that cross dimensions to visit their owners on another planet, etc. and of course all the unwritten but assumed math equations that will have to be written (documented purely by a vague diagram 'gui' like art that will cover anything and everything anyone can possibly think of in terms of actual future specifics) and then sue the living pants off anyone that even tries use that area of physics without my $1 Billion licensing fee (per applicant).

Don't even THINK about patenting a time machine. I've already gone back in time and I'm suing Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale for using my idea of a time machine in a car that I patented during the ancient Egyptian years. The patent can clearly be seen on the wall of the tomb in Abydos. Don't even get me started about Stargate and them using my tomb in Abydos for their movie. They will all owe me $$$ back-dated 10,000 years + compound interest! :D

Seriously, we need a law against ALL FORMS OF SOFTWARE PATENTS. Software should fall under copyright, not patents. Most of the software patents I've seen are just vague diagrams of GUIs that are then supposed to cover any and all code and any way that code could be written to accomplish those generic 'goals' that don't include ANY programming knowledge.

The very idea that a 'link' inside an application could be patented is so freaking ridiculous that I would want to see that taken to the Supreme Court. All one would have to do is find something a year older that has a link inside the program to the developer's business or similar and there you go, the basis for having a "pay to license" button in a program. Can you even imagine if someone patented the idea of typing letters on a computer? You could sue every word processor maker on the face of the Earth for the past 30 years.... WTF does THAT have to do with making a GOOD word processor? It stifles...no KILLS all innovation because WTF is the point of making something if someone is just going to sue the living crap out of you every time you release something?


You haven't read the terms of licensing they are proposing. They would get 0.575% of the sales resulting in the use of the Upgrade button. So sales of the paid app.

If Apple held the patent, they would want 30%. :rolleyes:

I've just submitted a patent for a "Replace" button. It's similar to an 'upgrade' button, but it covers all buttons that delete the trial program and 'replace' it with a full version. That's not an upgrade. It's a switch. :D

While I'm at it, I'm submitting patent buttons for 'order coffee' , 'order pizza', 'dispense change', 'call home', 'navigate home' and 'wash car' (all in terms of remote internet use over smart phone). Any app that uses something like that will have to pay me 5 cents a button click. :D

After all, that took some serious brain power to come up with that stuff. NO ONE could POSSIBLY come up with something like that already or in the future. It deserves a patent. Given most patent clerks have the brains of Shaggy from Scooby-Doo, they should be approved regardless of their total illegitimacy.
 
Apple should just buy them. They have plenty of cash... this could be a threat to one of their up and coming revenue streams.

Buy them up and refuse to license to MS and Google ;-)
 
You seem to assume that these technological ideas would even come into existence and be published promptly without the incentive of huge potential ransom income. If it doesn't exist, it's hard for it to improve people's lives.

So explain why so many current medical advances come out of profit making corporations vs. non-profits? Maybe your friend can live longer with those expensive new treatments or widgets whose multi-million dollar safety trials were paid for by very richly profiting corporations? Or possibly some non-profit university would have eventually come up with the treatment... a few decades after your friend was dead.

That's the interesting trade-off.

I beg to differ, most medical advanced come from academia. This is a big controversy you should look into. Medical corporations "fund" university research with federal grant money and take all patents from the school for stuff they actually didn't pay for (we the tax payers do), they just used their lawyers and connection to get access to funds they really had no intention of using on their own, the schools really have no choice because they need the work. Then they (the corporations) turn around and charge the recipients huge sums for the devices and justify them with "research" costs, which should be read marketing costs. Then they troll on the patents to prevent further research in the areas until they feel they've bleed the first round. This goes on and on, and the FDA is accomplice to this as well. This is why here in the US we are always a generation or two behind in many of the devices, compared to Europe or even Canada. I know this first hand as I am the recipient of two medical prothesis and had to take older generation devices because of our broken system. Luckily the President has actually enacted some changes that will help, but we are far for a working solution. Situations like this don't help because they re-inforce a legal precedent that places greed above need.
 
Why can't sales be proven?

Let's say App X Lite has an Upgrade button, that merely directs the user to the App Store app. That Upgrade button is simply a hyperlink for the full version, as it is an entirely different app, and the only way to purchase a different app is throught the App Store. There's no known, at least not known to any iOS developers, two way information link between the Lite version and the opening of the App Store app. The App Store app loads the description page for the full version of App X. App X Lite has no idea that anything has happened, other than that it was shutdown after being told to open a hyperlink. Whether the user chooses to buy the app right then, later, or never, the developer will never ever know, as the process that just took place is not recorded by App X Lite, nor is it sent to the developer at a later date by Apple.

The only thing that can be proven are IAP items, as they happen inside the app, and Apple records the purchase, and sends the info to the developer the very next day.
 
All this banter distracts from one key point!

I had to join just to post this as the majority of people here are not iOS developers, but if you are going to banter back and forth about a topic you should at least be aware of the facts:

In the iOS API we have the Store Kit framework to process payments for things like in app purchases and product upgrades/expansions. Using the tools/framework(s) provided by Apple makes this Apple's problem not a developer problem.

Apple and iOS development is a walled garden environment in terms of this issue. Whether it's a major game house or an indie developer when it comes to processing payments initial or in application we all follow the rules set forth by Apple and the tools we are provided. Even third party services like Urban Airship process payments through iTunes - there is no way around this - this is Apple Law!

When you understand this you cannot by any stretch of the imagination make the argument that this is a developer issue. This is an Apple issue if not for anything but their own developer terms of service. If this is not rectified by Apple in a legal sense then you will get a mass exodus of developers.

Please do a little research before you post blindly.
 
"the company, like the developers, is simply trying to sell its products and make a profit"

products? what products? if you can call the parasitic leeching of profits from small developers a product....
 
When you understand this you cannot by any stretch of the imagination make the argument that this is a developer issue.

Lodsys' comments seem to indicate they feel differently. They say Apple's agreements with them do not sprinkle "pixie dust" over developers and free them from the required licensing.

Are the Apple licensing terms for the Lodsys patents public record? If not, then how can you state with certainty that a court will not consider this a developer issue? Do we know what the agreement between Lodsys and Apple covers other than Apple "nameplate products and services"?

If you think of all the legal complexities, it is rather absurd to think that Apple could completely eliminate all patent infringement assertions for any developer that simply makes use of their API. Think about it... use of the Apple API certainly does not protect you from claims of copyright violation, so why would patent law be different?

Again, developers notified of infringement need to exercise due diligence to protect their interests. You cannot rely on Apple to defend you. The first step is to seek a legal opinion on the asserted patents and whether they apply to your products. Most small developers cannot afford this alone (typically $40k), they need to band together and obtain such a legal opinion as a group to spread the costs or inquire with a non-profit org dedicated to such issues.

If you simply ignore the infringement notification and are sued you will be responsible for triple damages and Lodsys' court costs. Sorry, but that is the law as I understand it.
 
EDIT: I read the full print again. Apple is licensed to this patent but the developers are not. Lets see what happens.

to wit, I say that I want to see the actual deal. I want to see where it says that Apple and use it but not 3rd part developers.

Also, is this a patent for the actual tech or just the idea. If it is the idea and Apple created the tech then they could have cause to tell Lodsys to go stick it. Because substantial change on an existing invention can be cause to be deemed a new invention that can be patented on its own and doesn't require licensing etc from the original inventor
 
Lodsys' comments seem to indicate they feel differently. They say Apple's agreements with them do not sprinkle "pixie dust" over developers and free them from the required licensing.

Are the Apple licensing terms for the Lodsys patents public record? If not, then how can you state with certainty that a court will not consider this a developer issue? Do we know what the agreement between Lodsys and Apple covers other than Apple "nameplate products and services"?

If you think of all the legal complexities, it is rather absurd to think that Apple could completely eliminate all patent infringement assertions for any developer that simply makes use of their API. Think about it... use of the Apple API certainly does not protect you from claims of copyright violation, so why would patent law be different?

Again, developers notified of infringement need to exercise due diligence to protect their interests. You cannot rely on Apple to defend you. The first step is to seek a legal opinion on the asserted patents and whether they apply to your products. Most small developers cannot afford this alone (typically $40k), they need to band together and obtain such a legal opinion as a group to spread the costs or inquire with a non-profit org dedicated to such issues.

If you simply ignore the infringement notification and are sued you will be responsible for triple damages and Lodsys' court costs. Sorry, but that is the law as I understand it.

Your statement of the law is inaccurate. This is why affected developers should seek advice from actual IP attorneys, and not rely on forum posts written by laypeople.
 
The same old argument

It doesn't matter if it is Lodsys, Exxon, Hedge Funds or whatever. They always claim it is for our own good and helpsd the consumers. What crap. They are in business for one reason - to take as much of the consumers' money as possible as fast as possible.
 
How so? Please bless me with your knowledge. I am always eager to learn.

Your analysis of willfulness is not quite right. It would be improper for me to explain why, as I don't want anyone to rely on my explanation as legal advice.
 
Your analysis of willfulness is not quite right. It would be improper for me to explain why, as I don't want anyone to rely on my explanation as legal advice.

I said if you "simply ignore" the infringement notification you would be subject to willful infringement. You cannot just ignore the notification.

There apparently has been some recent changes in the absolute requirement to seek a competent legal opinion immediately upon notification. I found this discussion of the issue. Check the point-by-point actions recommended if you are notified of infringement.

However, a most reliable way to avoid such a judgement is to get a competent legal opinion. If you reduce (or eliminate) the willful infringement risk then the cost/benefit ratio to Lodsys to sue to obtain a reward is less attractive -- especially if you are small developer with very modest sales.

Perhaps Apple will step in to offer the competent legal opinion that the patent does not apply, however it does not bode well that Apple is a licensee itself. Obviously they already have considered the applicability of the patent(s) and chose to license.
 
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bristleworm said:
I'm Not a legal expert. Does this affect me as an iOS developer based in Europe as well? I do have an app in the US app store. Any ideas concerning this?

If you sell your product in the US, you are liable to US patent laws even if you don't base your operations in the US.

However, it's not a necessity that the proceedings are held in the US, and should you refuse to entertain the trial or pay any money, they'd have to take it to a court in your country to force you (at least that is how is with my loacal laws).
 
Let's say App X Lite has an Upgrade button, that merely directs the user to the App Store app. That Upgrade button is simply a hyperlink for the full version, as it is an entirely different app, and the only way to purchase a different app is throught the App Store.
I'm not sure that type of hyperlink button is actually covered by the patent. I'm not an expert, but it seemed to indicate 2-way communication, such as the direct IAP provides.
 
Again, developers notified of infringement need to exercise due diligence to protect their interests. You cannot rely on Apple to defend you. The first step is to seek a legal opinion on the asserted patents and whether they apply to your products. Most small developers cannot afford this alone (typically $40k), they need to band together and obtain such a legal opinion as a group to spread the costs or inquire with a non-profit org dedicated to such issues.

$40k to just to get a legal opinion? And here I thought that Lodsys were the crooks. :rolleyes:

You know if we didn't create a country where the laws were written in Greek instead of English, you wouldn't need a leech in the first place. But then if we didn't have patent clerks giving every vague, abstract all-encompassing idea the green light in the first place, you wouldn't need to look anything up.

If you simply ignore the infringement notification and are sued you will be responsible for triple damages and Lodsys' court costs. Sorry, but that is the law as I understand it.

I'd sooner go to prison than pay those scum bags one red cent. And then the tax payer can pay $50k-100k a year for my free room and board. What a wonderful BS 'system' we have in this country. But then just look at those running it. Have you seen the latest "Supreme Court" (they seem more like a group committing treason to me lately) ruling about how the police no longer need a warrant to break into your home? If they hear a toilet flush (or pretend they did), they now have the legal right to break your door down (don't expect them to pay for it even if they're wrong) and see WTF you're flushing down that toilet. After all, it might be drugs and not just a big floater. :rolleyes:

This country has gone down the toilet with that floater. We protect the white collar criminals (and pass laws to make their crimes legal), house and feed the violent criminals while leaving homeless veterans to fend for themselves on the streets. It makes me feel so proud to be an American. :rolleyes:
 
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