London/Manchester shootings

[sierra oscar]

Russed:

I had no idea ppl like you still existed - well I do know right wing viewpoints are indeed out there - but day to day I don't see it, but I experience it in policy. Also guessing you aren't part of an oppressed group - always easier when you are the oppressor.

Maggie did so so so much damage... although I must admit personally I think she is a nice person who had good intentions.

...I would consider your views fascism - sure... but there is room for all us in this world.

 

[russed]

Russed:

I had no idea ppl like you still existed - well I do know right wing viewpoints are indeed out there - but day to day I don't see it, but I experience it in policy. Also guessing you aren't part of an oppressed group - always easier when you are the oppressor.

Maggie did so so so much damage... although I must admit personally I think she is a nice person who had good intentions.

...I would consider your views fascism - sure... but there is room for all us in this world.

i am grossly offended - for a start do you know what fascism is? please learn before you call someone a fascist, i have studied fasicsm at university in great depth (not because i want to 'learn more' and become more) so i do know what fascism is and i DO KNOW it is not conservatism.

secondly, we all have a right to free speech, that is what democracy is about, i will listen to your opinion but democracy is not just calling someone something without clarifying your position. So please define why i am a fascist.

what damage did maggie do? please clarify also

i am not a fascist, i am not a supporter of the bnp or anything like that, i am definatly not rascist. all i am is a conservative.

please give constructive criticism and give your ideas of how to solve the problem dont insult me and an apology would be appreciated.

 

[sierra oscar]

umm... ok - I was responding to your previous response - perhaps re-read that. You made loads of statements and made no attempt to back them up -

Why when ppl disagree with you - you now expect others to suddenly - doesn't sound very equitable...then again that is the crux of this viewpont no?

....and yes I know very well what fascism is...

just relax...yes you do sound extremely right wing - (and you come across very aggressive) ...and I guess there is nothing wrong with right wing views and I repeat ...I did say - there is room for all of us...

I'm not going to get into 'who is the most credible expert' in this field - everyone has a right to a voice.

 

[Brize]

If you get sent to prison, its more like a holiday camp with tv's a relaxed environment and game consoles and even then they will be out in 1/3rd of the time.

The few reports that I've read on UK prisons - such as this one, for example - paint a very different picture:

This report from Anne Owers of an unannounced inspection of HMP Pentonville reveals the stark reality of life in an overcrowded Victorian local prison. It describes a filthy, vermin-infested jail, where even a prisoner's basic requirements of a pillow, toothbrush or cooked meal cannot be guaranteed. [...] For many people time spent in Pentonville will be a brutalizing, damaging experience that does nothing to contribute to public safety.​

Are you actually able to support your assertions with empirical evidence, or is this just conjecture based on an article you once read in the Daily Mail?

 

[Applespider]

If you get sent to prison, its more like a holiday camp with tv's a relaxed environment and game consoles and even then they will be out in 1/3rd of the time.

Have you ever visited a prison? I did as part of my law degree. The officers showed us round a relatively modern prison (as in they had toilets in their cells and didn't have to slop out). As part of it, they locked us in a cell for 30 minutes without a clock/watch available. It changed my views.

Prison isn't about what facilities you have don't have - the punishment is the lack of free will. Your mealtimes, your exercise time, your relaxation time and your bedtime is all laid out by some one else. Your world consists of the cell that you'll spend the majority of your time in (with whatever comforts you can afford to bring), the recreation area, the dining room, the exercise area and any workplace you might go to. There's no visibility of normal life - you won't see anyone walking a dog, you won't see anyone having a pint, you won't see anyone carrying their shopping.

Parole is usually 1/3 off the sentence but the length served will usually have any time spent on remand taken off. And of course, if parole is breached, they end up back inside again. It's not quite so cushy as you're suggesting.

 

[iGav]

you won't see anyone walking a dog, you won't see anyone having a pint, you won't see anyone carrying their shopping.

They would if I had my way, they'd be on the chain gangs trying to repay their debt to society rather than sitting around in their cells not getting rehabilitated.

 

[0098386]

Moss Side is a very dangerous area. My girlfriends mum used to work at a school there, half the kids didn't speak English. Full of dangerous, confused people.

My area's full of eccentrics. One guy who thought he was a vampire "ate" off a womans face and raped her on a canal barge. And of course the Moors Murderers. No guns though. Just mental heads.

 

[dcv]

Moss Side is a very dangerous area. My girlfriends mum used to work at a school there, half the kids didn't speak English. Full of dangerous, confused people.

I used to live on the outskirts of Moss Side (more on the university/Rusholme side though) about 12 years ago, was really quite dodgy even in those days. We had some very unsavoury characters hanging around and would *never* wander into Moss Side-proper. There was a road down that way nicknamed Shot Gun Alley (was it Moss Lane or Claremont Rd or somewhere around there?)

 

[Dalriada]

I cannot believe the hard time Russed received for simply commenting that we need to see more of a responsible society for things to improve... and I truly believe such responsibility starts at home bringing up your kids and keeping them busy and not on the streets... my 2 cents

- Dal

 

[bousozoku]

I used to live on the outskirts of Moss Side (more on the university/Rusholme side though) about 12 years ago, was really quite dodgy even in those days. We had some very unsavoury characters hanging around and would *never* wander into Moss Side-proper. There was a road down that way nicknamed Shot Gun Alley (was it Moss Lane or Claremont Rd or somewhere around there?)

Did the police conduct random raids of the area or were they afraid to enter the area, or perhaps, it was somewhere in-between those? It would be bad to think that they'd just abandoned such an area.

I cannot believe the hard time Russed received for simply commenting that we need to see more of a responsible society for things to improve... and I truly believe such responsibility starts at home bringing up your kids and keeping them busy and not on the streets... my 2 cents

- Dal

We've had calls in other threads for responsibility and others come back as if we're too harsh for expecting people to act like people and not act like beasts. It's unfortunate that coddling criminals doesn't help most of them. Perhaps, if we'd all been born into a preferred environment.

 

[0098386]

Did the police conduct random raids of the area or were they afraid to enter the area, or perhaps, it was somewhere in-between those? It would be bad to think that they'd just abandoned such an area.

You actually do get that feeling in Moss Side, that the police don't care about it, probably because it's extremely dangerous for them especially in small numbers. The school I mentioned before had no windows and bullet holes in the walls... in a school. Frankly it's pathetic. I don't think anyone has been shot in the school.
My girlfriends mum cried on her way home once. One of the girls told her about the problems her family had. Her parents were killed back in her old country, so the girl fled to England with her aunt. The stories the kids have are heart wrenching. It's a small junior school so they don't fully understand all this anger and violence... even I don't understand it fully.

 

[MOFS]

They would if I had my way, they'd be on the chain gangs trying to repay their debt to society rather than sitting around in their cells not getting rehabilitated.

Probably not a bad idea, tho' chain gangs are a bit extreme. Seriously though - jail is no good for pretty much anyone. It costs a fortune for the state, and they're not the rehabilitation centre they need to be. Taking someone out of society is not the greatest answer in this day and age when we know the social causes of crime.

 

[Abstract]

I cannot believe the hard time Russed received for simply commenting that we need to see more of a responsible society for things to improve... and I truly believe such responsibility starts at home bringing up your kids and keeping them busy and not on the streets... my 2 cents

- Dal

Agreed. I'm more left wing than right (actually, I think I just take the ideas I agree with from both sides, but I'm more moderate left), but how can you disagree with the idea of people accepting their responsibilities and actions, and therefore, their punishment? Society is too soft, and in many ways, too forgiving. I don't know if jail is difficult or comfortable. I have no idea who's right. What I can say is that jail is a place where people are going to learn what they did was wrong. If they're not being punished hard in prison, and not learning and being reformed to fit into society again, then prison isn't what it's supposed to be. I don't want to see people walk out and not feel sorry. People who go to prison need to walk out a changed man, not just go back to their old attitude.

The rest of Russed's statement about people having rights nowadays.....well....I'll just leave you with what I agree with.

Prison isn't about what facilities you have don't have - the punishment is the lack of free will. Your mealtimes, your exercise time, your relaxation time and your bedtime is all laid out by some one else.

What does marriage have to do with this!

 

[Warbrain]

Yes, but your Constitution is to blame for the high levels of gun ownership.

Yep, good ol 2nd amendment. Lets give everyone a gun to reduce violence!

Except that it works. People won't commit a crime if they are confronted with a firearm. People feel safer with a firearm in their homes. The main issue is that the people who are using firearms to kill people aren't buying them legally - from the back of a van, not from a firearm shop - and not using them in the manner that they are supposed to. Taking firearms away from the public doesn't help reduce firearm deaths, as is seen in the UK.

Now not to take away from what's happening in this neighborhood in the UK, but this is nothing new to me. The south and west sides of Chicago are essentially war grounds, with different gangs fighting each other over drug territory. The police try to do whatever they can, but it's a tough thing to enforce.

 

[Abstract]

Taking firearms away from the public doesn't help reduce firearm deaths, as is seen in the UK.

Isn't the incidents of gun related deaths/shootings higher in the US per capita than in other places, including the UK?

 

[Warbrain]

Isn't the incidents of gun related deaths/shootings higher in the US per capita than in other places, including the UK?

But the UK still has firearm deaths and crimes even though it's practically illegal to own them in the country? How odd? They took them away from the people who owned them legally and OOPS, the gangs still have them.

 

[Brize]

Taking firearms away from the public doesn't help reduce firearm deaths, as is seen in the UK.

Average of years 1998-2002, homicides per 100,000 of the population:

England and Wales: 1.51, of which 9.1% were gun-related

United States of America: 5.74, of which 65.1% were gun-related​

Statistics collated from the UK Home Office and the US Bureau of Justice.

 

[Black&Tan]

I would have to say one of the problems is that the whole blame culture - no one is every to blame anymore, no one can be held responsible and everyone now has rights - as a result children are growing up without discipline because they cant be, and even if they get caught for something they will get a slap around the wrist (sorry, no you cant hit anymore) and told not to do it again.....

the solution cant be solved over night but a good place to start is the return to people being held accountable for their crimes and the encouragement of people being proud of their society.

Wow! Sounds like America.

When I visited back in the early 90's I was struck by a sense of personal responsibility that is sadly lacking in America. I'm sorry to hear you've adopted some of the worst aspects of American life. The next step is a lawsuit culture....avoid it if you can.

 

[Brize]

I cannot believe the hard time Russed received for simply commenting that we need to see more of a responsible society for things to improve

russed didn't 'simply' comment that society could be improved if people were to take more responsibility for their actions; he also made a number of baseless assertions that deserved, and duly received, scrutiny.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

This sounds like a small group of armed criminals who are responsible for taking a neighborhood hostage with their little private war. Hopefully they will be identified and caught before more people get killed.

Rant -

I think there is a crime problem in the US (and guns certainly play a part in that), but at the same time there are many, many more legal gun owners in the US than there are in the UK. Applying UK/Australian-like gun laws to America is not the answer IMO. I happen to be a surplus military rifle collector and do a little target shooting. Many other people hunt as well. If gun-banning legislation were put in place the government would have to buy back tens of millions of weapons from law-abiding citizens such as myself and...

...do you think that criminals would give their guns back as well? Statistics at the DoJ website linked by Brize show that the vast majority of the weapons used in crime are handguns (especially .38 and .357 Magnum revolvers), and many of those are stolen. The people who commit the majority of these crimes would not be effected by gun legislation because they already have an illegal firearm and/or are a felon already (which means any gun ownership is illegal).

I think that America needs to treat its gun problem by looking at America's situation and needs and not by simply cutting and pasting UK gun laws - which also heavily restrict air rifles/pistols and paintball guns, of which there are also tens of millions in the US. Is the taxpayer ready to pay for an 80-million gun buyback and the registration of an equal number of guns, air rifles/pistols and paintball guns? Are they ready to bear the expense of a big surge in "crime" as gun legal owners who are slow or unwilling to give up their weapons need to be arrested, prosecuted and fined or even incarcerated? Many police officers own personal weapons for hunting/competition/home defense...do they get to keep these or no? Which politicians are willing to take the responsibility of designing and implementing this legislation? Or should the government simply ban firearms and compel legal gun owners like myself to give up thousands of dollars worth of firearms for nothing? Australia could afford a buyback, but that was less than a million weapons (only 643,674 were surrendered) - easily a hundred times less than the number of guns in the USA.

This isn't to say that UK gun laws are ineffective, but one could hardly expect the same law to be equally effective in vastly different contexts. It's easy to sit back, dismiss what I have to say and apply various stereotypes to me because I am a gun owner, but the fact is that I and many other legal gun owners in the US don't fit that stereotype and people are acting out of ignorance when they generalize about gun ownership, gun "culture" and it's relationship to gun crime. Many influential people pushing for further gun regulation in the US (which I support in principle) do not, in my opinion, have a firm grasp of the facts. Terms like "assault weapon" and "sniper rifle" have lost their technical meaning completely and become buzzwords for the media and anti-gun activist groups who don't actually know what they mean but use them for their shock value.

I respect the UK gun laws, I think that they seem to be a good fit overall in that country. But I don't think they are appropriate in the US. We should continue to refine gun legislation in the US - some laws are IMO clumsily written and unecessarily restrictive, while others need to be more regulatory. Right now I have the right and responsiblity to keep and use my firearms in a safe and legal manner, which I have done. Millions of Americans do the same every day. I have not yet heard an argument that convinces me that a major change in that basic situation is justified.

I don't like using "activist" organizations on either side of the issue as sources of info, but I recommend that people read as much as possible - one thing I dislike about gun legislation in general is the amount of disinformation that spreads from both sides during debates and articles/news shows in the media.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/bd/1997-98/98bd224.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

...etc via Google.

 

[Kingsly]

In an entire year, in the entire country, only 73 people died of gun related crime? I bet the US has 73 deaths a DAY from gun related crime.

But don't forget to look at the disproportionate number of gun owners to gun killers in the US.


EDIT: Lord Blackadder beat me. Good job, by the way!

 

[Brize]

snipped for length

Just a couple of general comments on this. One of the main objectives of the UK's zero-tolerance gun law is, as I understand it, to minimise the number of firearms in circulation. Accordingly, the law does impact upon those looking to procure firearms illegally, because guns aren't so readily available.

Despite this, I agree that UK-style gun laws would be ineffective in a US context. Although it's tempting to blame America's high murder rate on gun ownership, Switzerland offers a good example of a country with high gun ownership and a low rate of crime involving firearms. The US homicide rate, then, would seem to indicate a problem that's more fundamental to American society.

It strikes me as futile to discuss stringent firearms regulation in the US, given the degree to which guns are entrenched in American society. However, to defend or advocate widespread gun ownership in a country that very clearly has a homicide problem, is, to my mind, asking for trouble.

 

[russed]

I cannot believe the hard time Russed received for simply commenting that we need to see more of a responsible society for things to improve... and I truly believe such responsibility starts at home bringing up your kids and keeping them busy and not on the streets... my 2 cents

- Dal

thankyou, at least someone is willing to see the concept of democracy, i havent got around to replying to the criticisms made against me due to time but i will do shortly.

 

[bousozoku]

You actually do get that feeling in Moss Side, that the police don't care about it, probably because it's extremely dangerous for them especially in small numbers. The school I mentioned before had no windows and bullet holes in the walls... in a school. Frankly it's pathetic. I don't think anyone has been shot in the school.
My girlfriends mum cried on her way home once. One of the girls told her about the problems her family had. Her parents were killed back in her old country, so the girl fled to England with her aunt. The stories the kids have are heart wrenching. It's a small junior school so they don't fully understand all this anger and violence... even I don't understand it fully.

There is an area of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania that was re-settled by Jamaican drug lords and it's been on its own for a very long time. If you're not recognised as you enter the area, they kill you. The police and news crews don't go there anymore, as far as I've seen in the past 18 years. The drug trade has increased all over the city so that the number of murders is well over 300 this year. Across the river in Camden, New Jersey, it has the dubious title of the murder capitol of New Jersey", which was stolen from an area bordering New York City.

It almost seems as though the Western Hemisphere is regressing several hundred years. I'm surprised that there hasn't been an all out war between the haves and the have-nots.

 

[Brize]

thankyou, at least someone is willing to see the concept of democracy

You question whether sierra oscar has a firm grip on the concept of fascism, yet demonstrate a lack of familiarity with political concepts yourself by conflating democracy with the conservative doctrine of personal responsibility.

Democracy is a political system in which the people exercise power, either directly or through elected representatives. Whether people accept personal responsibility within that system is another matter entirely.