Londoners DEMAND Apple returns to old logo

[36183]

You're missing the point there I think. Everyone is being proud of who they are, whether they are pretty nondescript gays, drag queens, into leather, or just like running around in their underwear covered in glitter. If you turn up at Pride hiding who you are, then you're not being very Proud, are you?

Besides, it was 31?C in Central London. Stripping off in that sort of heat is quite appropriate

If they are trying to stop a prejudice wouldnt it be better to show them selves as being no different everyone else and not show up other homosexuals has being cross dressers and such.

and i dont think an issues such a prejudice towards homosexuals should be combined with pride in dressing that the way some of those people did. I personally know many homosexuals that would never be proud of dressing like that.

 

[mkrishnan]

and i dont think an issues such a prejudice towards homosexuals should be combined with pride in dressing that the way some of those people did. I personally know many homosexuals that would never be proud of dressing like that.

Then they should go as *they* wish to be, and the people who were at the parade should go as they wish to be. The whole point is tolerance... it's good that you make a bigger "box" than others, accepting more things than others... but you still reject behavior that doesn't hurt anyone. I've yet to see evidence of physiological or psychological harm being committed by seeing men in drag.

 

[Queso]

and i dont think an issues such a prejudice towards homosexuals should be combined with pride in dressing that the way some of those people did. I personally know many homosexuals that would never be proud of dressing like that.

It's about celebrating diversity. Just like you, I personally know many homosexuals that would never be proud of dressing like that. However, knowing more homosexuals that you do, I also personally know many homosexuals who are.

I also know some cross-dressing heterosexuals, and a couple of my straight friends confessed to me once that they like nothing better than dressing up in their bondage gear and heading down to Torture Garden. Out in the suburbs, they're even worse in what they get up to, with their swinging parties and such. If you honestly think only gays in London are up to stuff that you personally think is out of order, then you are being extremely naive. The straights simply don't have a Pride day for it.

Poor them

 

[36183]

I've yet to see evidence of physiological or psychological harm being committed by seeing men in drag.

I'll agree with that, however dressing is drag illustrates a lack of social decorum but to be fair i have done it once (at the age of 13) but never publicly

 

[36183]

If you honestly think only gays in London are up to stuff that you personally think is out of order, then you are being extremely naive. The straights simply don't have a Pride day for it.

Poor them

Its not that i think that only homosexuals do all this swinging party stuff, i just dont think it is anything to be proud about or anything that should be associated with homosexuality.

 

[Thomas Veil]

You know, those paraders need a slogan to match their flag.

How about, "**** Different"?

 

[Queso]

Its not that i think that only homosexuals do all this swinging party stuff, i just dont think it is anything to be proud about or anything that should be associated with homosexuality.

I said it's the hets in the suburbs doing that The Pride thing is about diversity rather than just homosexuality.

You were talking about dress styles primarily. Maybe you don't get into Central London much, but I've seen far more extreme sights than today during a working week, to the point where nothing seems wierd anymore.

Get up to Camden on any weekend and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[36183]

I said it's the hets in the suburbs doing that

You were talking about dress styles primarily. Maybe you don't get into Central London much, but I've seen far more extreme sights than today during a working week, to the point where nothing seems wierd anymore.

Get up to Camden on any weekend and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Yeah i dont usually explore much of london other than around the place that i intern/work at which in the london bridge / waterloo area.

 

[Queso]

Yeah i dont usually explore much of london other than around the place that i intern/work at which in the london bridge / waterloo area.

But even then I don't think you're grasping what the point of Pride is. If you say, we will accept you but only if you are like us, it's effectively saying we won't accept you for being you, only for what we expect you to be. It goes way beyond sexuality. It's more about looking at ourselves and the attitudes we have that prevent us from seeing other human beings for who they really are.

"Be Proud of what you are, just don't be proud in any way that offends us". Sounds a bit 1950s to me.

Anyway, I've drunk way too much today and I'm going to go sleep it off.

G'night.

 

[Applespider]

Well, unless you can think of another reason why they'd be marching a big rainbow past the Apple Store

Great topic title and picture

And nice to see a Pride day so well attended given the heat etc...

 

[Abstract]

Its not that i think that only homosexuals do all this swinging party stuff, i just dont think it is anything to be proud about or anything that should be associated with homosexuality.

I can sort of understand that.


Not even one of my close gay (male) friends can really understand the link between a man having an attraction to other men, and dressing like a girl or whatever. However, he does love seeing it, think it's fun, and even joins in sometimes. He acts and speaks "different" than other hetero guys, but that's OK because I can still talk to him rather easily. I do like the fact that he dresses in the realm of what most people would consider to be"normal" (although he has extremely expensive fashion sense ), and that he doesn't act overwhelmingly flamboyant. i.e: He's less like a cross-dresser, and is more like a slightly toned down version of Jack from Will and Grace. Pretty funny, actually.

I told him that I thought cross-dressing and acting rather effeminite was a gay male's way of giving the middle finger to society, telling us that gay men can be as different as they want to be, and that's that. He just laughed.

 

[hayduke]

I like the old and the new...

 

[Queso]

Great topic title and picture

Thank you very much. Did you notice the sky in the last pic? Good job I got a photo or no-one would believe it

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Then they should go as *they* wish to be, and the people who were at the parade should go as they wish to be. The whole point is tolerance... it's good that you make a bigger "box" than others, accepting more things than others... but you still reject behavior that doesn't hurt anyone. I've yet to see evidence of physiological or psychological harm being committed by seeing men in drag.

We may push this thread towards the Political Forum.

As a Gay male, I think I see your point. I am accepted at work being Gay, because I "fit" in. As I mentioned in another thread, I self identify with the Gay Bear community. Add to that the Gay Leather community. At work they don;t need to know those details. At work, I am the "Gay" guy that can accept a joke, and dish it back.

Once I was given the biggest hug, from a female model. I mentioned that to my boss, that was nice feeling (soon after my break-up with my ex). His comment was that every other guy in the store was jealous. I casually mentioned, "what a wasted moment"?

Or perhaps it was the time that a co-worker asked me about "my people". And I replied, "what about you 'breeders'". We all had a good laugh at that.

Or last month after a long weekend off. There is a fast food joint called Five Guys. They serve the best burgers in the DC area. It had been 10+ years since I last had one of their burgers. And the guys at work have been many times in recent months. So last month I went and revisited one of their new places on my 4 day weekend off.

So I return to work, and was asked what I did that weekend. Along with all the other stuff I did, I mentioned "I finally did Five Guys this weekend". One co-worker shot back, "that was a bit greedy, don't you think"? It was a rolling laughter thing as each of caught on to the joke. With me being near the end of chain, being red as a beet. We are still laughing about "Five Guys".

Before anyone runs off to the HRC. I see nothing wrong in our banter. I am one of the guys at work, that happens to be Gay. What I do in my private life is my own business. I could be a drag queen for what it is worth. I gained much respect last year in the ending of 13+ year relationship.

Why? Because many had been through the same thing with their wives or long term GF's. I also don't share the private details of my life at work.

How does this fit in to a discussion about Pride Days? Simply that when I use to attend, I went as myself. A Gay male. I resisted tagging along with Bear groups, Leather groups, and the such.

I am, was at the time, to represent the Gay community as one that you come across everyday. You may work with "us", you may buy from "us". You may even live next door to "us". Though I have been in the Leather community, I see no need to show up at work in chaps and a jockstrap.

Some that know of the trials of the Blacks seeking civil rights, might see this as "passing", or not "being uppity". For me there is a difference. It is hard to hide ones skin color. And the science of sexual preferences is still hotly debated.

The fringe groups of "party boys" in speedos, Drag Queens in their finest, the Leather community strutting their stuff in chaps and jock straps with their "boys" on leashes do little to further the cause. Great TV. But a failure in getting the message across.

I am old enough to remember the Civil Rights Movement. For me the unifying image of pictures and TV footage of that time, was that the African-Americans looked every bit a part of the fabric of that time.

So should the Gay community strive to show that we are in every bit the fabric of society. Not some side-show that makes great TV.

 

[Queso]

Great post Chip, and one that goes some way to show why you can't lump gays together as one group. We are as diverse in our opinions, politics and lifestyles as the straight communites, even in the way we view ourselves.

</sociology lecture>

Here's where I disagree though. Although 99% of the people at Europride on Saturday were dressed "normally", the drag and leather boys are the ones who will get the event the big coverage in the papers the following day. Give the media their picture and they will gladly devote half of page 2 or 3 to Pride rather than a tiny footnote on page 17. Now my theory is that the juxtaposition of the way the media focusses on the more flamboyant gays with how most of us behave leads to more acceptance from the straights. People develop a stereotype of what a gay person is from what they see, then when their gay neighbour doesn't behave according to that stereotype it gets them thinking about their preconceptions.

As for your other point comparing the Gay Rights movement with the Black Civil Rights in the 60s, unfortunately even here in Europe we aren't close to the down-tools day yet. Recent events in Poland and Russia combined with Ratzinger's constant vitriol spewing from The Vatican imply that that all the progress we've made could still be taken away from us. One day we won't need Pride marches at all, but sadly we're still a long way from that point.

 

[whooleytoo]

I've yet to see evidence of physiological or psychological harm being committed by seeing men in drag.

Are you kidding me? In some countries, viewing The Crying Game is used as psychological torture to break down straight male prisoners!

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Great post Chip, and one that goes some way to show why you can't lump gays together as one group. We are as diverse in our opinions, politics and lifestyles as the straight communites, even in the way we view ourselves.

Thanks. I know I have a hard time with the idea of a Gay Republican.

Here's where I disagree though. Although 99% of the people at Europride on Saturday were dressed "normally", the drag and leather boys are the ones who will get the event the big coverage in the papers the following day. Give the media their picture and they will gladly devote half of page 2 or 3 to Pride rather than a tiny footnote on page 17. Now my theory is that the juxtaposition of the way the media focusses on the more flamboyant gays with how most of us behave leads to more acceptance from the straights. People develop a stereotype of what a gay person is from what they see, then when their gay neighbour doesn't behave according to that stereotype it gets them thinking about their preconceptions.

Fair enough, and a good point. But it is the outlandish images that fuel the more narrow minded ones to oppose equal rights for all, including Gays.

As for your other point comparing the Gay Rights movement with the Black Civil Rights in the 60s, unfortunately even here in Europe we aren't close to the down-tools day yet. Recent events in Poland and Russia combined with Ratzinger's constant vitriol spewing from The Vatican imply that that all the progress we've made could still be taken away from us. One day we won't need Pride marches at all, but sadly we're still a long way from that point.

More the reason to show that we are as GLBT's, are just as normal as the next person. Bigotry needs a poster child. Whether it is the Drag Queens and the Leatherboys, or the single African-American woman with 3 kids living off welfare and the Gangsta look - these images ignite narrow mindedness that leads to bigotry.

We have come far since the '70's as Gays. In the '80's I had a customer look me in the eye and say, "you're one of them faggots" - only because I appeared the night before as a spokesperson for the Whitman-Walker Clinic at that years Pride event. I even got a pie in my face at work - for what I think was my boldness in bring my BF to the company picnic.

In the new millennium, my ex was welcomed at company events as was any other Straight co-workers partners or dates. When we split-up, I was given sympathy and support as any other that went through a divorce or break-up.

What is missing though is equal protection under our laws. When my ex lost his job, I was not allowed to place him on my insurance. When he became ill, I did not have access to the FMLA. If he were to have died, lets say from an auto accident, I would not have gotten bereavement leave.

But equal rights under the law can be a two-edged sword. Since we had no legal rights that is offered to married and common-law Straight couples - I did not have to go through the financial pain of a divorce. A lawyer friend said that I was lucky - for my ex's situation at the time of our split would have meant half of my TH sale would/could have gone to him. And that I might have faced a very good chance of providing alimony.

Yes, there could have been a chance for a prenup, but at our level of income/wealth that would not have passed my mind at the time that we decided to become one.

 

[Queso]

There's a percentage of the population that will never change their views on us. If we all started dressing and acting exactly as the straights in public, they would still focus on what we do in the bedroom (if we're lucky ) rather than every other aspect of our lives.

I suppose it is slightly different over here because our equality campaign has now come to something tangible. A company can't discriminate or sack someone for their sexuality, same-sex couples can get "married" in a civil ceremony and have their union blessed in church if they wish, and all the rights of married couples are automatically granted as part of that. I'm not saying it's easy. There are some parts of the UK which are harder than others (Northern Ireland in particular comes to mind), but it seems that our strategy of just keeping the issue in the public eye and refusing to hide amongst the masses has been successful.

I have to wonder what that co-worker got back from you for the pie stunt. If that had been me, they'd have been scraping that person off the floor and into the back of an ambulance. Most things I can laugh at or turn the other cheek to, but assaulting me for purposes of humiliation would not be in that category.

 

[shawsinio]

icolours.ca FTW

can i do this on my macbook? or is that just plain stoopid to attempt on something so precious!?

 

[mkrishnan]

Are you kidding me? In some countries, viewing The Crying Game is used as psychological torture to break down straight male prisoners!

LOL I've yet to see that movie. But point taken!

Heheheehe, speaking very loosely of psychological torture. One of my friends who I love to death, but who's the stereotypical fashion clueless white boy called me up last night with friends to go see The Devil Wears Prada. Which is really funny considering he didn't know what Prada is. Or who Dolce & Gabbana are. Or for that matter ... ah, never mind. Hehehehehe... it was too cute and too funny. Cuz he needed all the jokes explained to him. But I think he had a good time, and my metrosexual self definitely enjoyed it. Now if only *I* could wear Prada.... *le infinito sigh*

 

[FragTek]

can i do this on my macbook? or is that just plain stoopid to attempt on something so precious!?

Does the MacBook have the screws around the edge of the display like the iBooks? If so then yup, you have the easiest lappy to upgrade with these little trinkets of platinum

Mine on the other hand requires me to completely take the display off of the bottom half so that I can access the screws on the displays bottom edge. Total PITA.

 

[shawsinio]

Does the MacBook have the screws around the edge of the display like the iBooks? If so then yup, you have the easiest lappy to upgrade with these little trinkets of platinum

Mine on the other hand requires me to completely take the display off of the bottom half so that I can access the screws on the displays bottom edge. Total PITA.

nope, no screws, i guess ill just have to manage with the highlighted logo colour i have already!

thanks thought!

 

[ahunter3]

I'm a paranoid schizophrenic (and/or so diagnosed/labeled), of the schizzy-libber variety (militantly untreated, politically active, opposed to forced psychiatric treatment, don't take psych drugs, don't see shrinks except on the other side of picket lines when picketing the APA, embrace the differences that set me apart from "normal" people, etc).

Quite jealous of those gay pride marches and gay pride movement in general...wish we had 1/10 the public awareness that y'all do that not everyone so labeled is to be pitied, changed/saved/normalized if possible, including against our wishes, and if not treated and viewed as disgusting, threatening, deplorable...

Anyhow...so when "out", presenting ourselves in public as such: to be as "normal" as possible, or to cast into question the standards by which "normal" behavior and appearance are valorized?

On the one hand, certainly some of the people you'd like to reach may have their preconceptions upended and their prejudices uprooted if/when they find that in most respects you're like everyone else. (Others are so wedded to their attitudes that they'll see 'deviance' where they are determined to see it or else bracket you off and say that to the extent that you are indeed 'normal' you are the exception to the rule and in some fashion don't count because THEY (you) ARE GENERICALLY DEVIANT AND SOCIETALLY DANGEROUS except for that one-in-a-million deliberately handpicked straight-looking normal person they stuck out there as a disingenuous spokesperson / public representative).

On the other hand, do some of the observable differences that comprise the stereotypes actually exist? For gay guys, for example, mightn't it be true that, freed in part from the horror-pressure of being thought "gay" if they don't shrink away from anything considered 'feminine' (a horror-pressure brought to bear on straight guys), the gay guys are indeed more at ease with themselves in acting or appearing as straight fellows deny themselves any option of? Likewise lesbian females foregoing the rigorous concern with visual appearance imposed on straight females lest they be deemed unattractive to men (and we all know how picky us hetero men are, and how difficult it is to get the possibility of sex to enter into our brains)? Similarly, there's an enormous range of behaviors and personality-traits and appearances that people cordon themselves off from lest someone (oh what a nightmare) think they are freakin' insane and need to be carted off to a lunatic asylum. In all such cases listed here, the "normal" is not the healthy position, and part of the liberation is the liberation from these constraints. (Yeah, gay lib ultimately liberates us straightfolk, feminism is good for men, and schizzy lib will be beneficial for those of you who lack a psychiatric diagnosis).

Finally, who is the pride event for? Is it most centrally just another PR / public reeducation effort to change prevailing prejudices against the outgroup? Or is it primarily a celebration of the freedom of the outfolk to come out and (even if only the relative safety of an enormous crowd of similar folk and throngs of their supporters) shout out "We're here, we're not going to hide from you and what you hateful folks say and think, and we're free to come out and be seen like this and not have to be afraid of you (at least not today)" -- ?

Maybe quite a bit of both. Perhaps your sentiments lean more towards the ongoing PR if you're comfortably out and nonchalant about it (or if you aren't of the outgroup or any other significant outgroup and don't GET the need to peel off your disguises and shout "hooray" and be blatantly That Which Is Not Permitted out there in the street)... but even if that's the case, are you going to get in the way of those who show up with the other sentiment and the other needs?

In the mental patients' liberation / schizzy-libber scene, the usual dichotomy is between those who seek each other for mutual therapy, soulsessioning, comparing horror stories of psychiatric (mis)treatment and stuff they have to put up with from family/neighbor/police/employer/etc, and what gets them through it, on the one hand, and those of us who show up to network, plan political strategies, discuss events to get the word out, etc... no event of ours is every purely PR / political, there are always folks unravelling and either seeking help to cope with unravelling or proudly and militantly defending their right to go forth in cognitive and emotional dishabille and display their unravellment w/o interference as long as they aren't hurting anyone, etc... you can't tell them they are "inappropriate", and ultimately they aren't.

 

[Lollypop]

In the mental patients' liberation / schizzy-libber scene, the usual dichotomy is between those who seek each other for mutual therapy, soulsessioning, comparing horror stories of psychiatric (mis)treatment and stuff they have to put up with from family/neighbor/police/employer/etc, and what gets them through it, on the one hand, and those of us who show up to network, plan political strategies, discuss events to get the word out, etc... no event of ours is every purely PR / political, there are always folks unravelling and either seeking help to cope with unravelling or proudly and militantly defending their right to go forth in cognitive and emotional dishabille and display their unravellment w/o interference as long as they aren't hurting anyone, etc... you can't tell them they are "inappropriate", and ultimately they aren't.

Lot to respond to! I have always tried to keep a open mind to everything, but I have to admit I have never though about the "mental patients' liberation / schizzy-libber scene", but the gay scene is pretty much the same, people want to be around similair people, hence gay ghetos.

The sad thing is that under it all we just want to feel like we belong, in my work enviroment all the guys are traditional heteros, they know the stats of every car ever made, take the day off to go test drive a new car, guzzle beer and watch every single game they can, sometimes dont even wear matching socks and have questionable dieets, I on the other hand dont care about cars, like my red wine, TRY to work out... and dont really feel part of the group, personally Im glad that there are things like a gay pride, they make it easier for people to be themselves. If that means, people have to walk around in leather so be it!

Truth be told a event like europride can be good and bad at the same time, gay men and woman need to be out there and in the heteros face, if they dont people wont see them, not be able understand them, and the stereotypes will remain, on the other hand the papers only highlight the stereotypes to sell papers, and that in turn makes the "normal" folks think that gay people arent "normal". (Hope my point came across, I sometimes have trouble doing that)

 

[steviem]

What did Che do for promoting homosexuality?