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Carly G. Fleischmann

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 16, 2020
38
15
United States
Hello:

this has been an interesting rabbit hole to climb down. More specifically, I recently discovered that you can emulate power PC Macs on a PC using a program called sheep shaver. So… I endeavored to set up a lab that is reminiscent to that of the computers in the schools of my childhood. I remember several variations of Macintosh being in the schools from fourth grade on up. Mostly the LC 520s and LC575s. Some schools, if you were lucky enough would have power Macs running either OS 7, OS 8, or OS 9 with some sort of network login feature and At ease at some sites. I am looking for whatever the last version of Macintosh manager is that ran under OS 9.0.4 so I can attempt to crash the universe by networking two or more emulated power PCs macs in an attempt to re-create a set up similar to that on the computers that were in the schools at the time. I don’t specifically recall macintosh manager being used as I would’ve been too young to even know what that software was or why it was important… But, based on how the login window (produced by the multiple users feature in OS 9 (both the click name/type password and type name and password variations)) looked on one emulated Mac and the fact that I could not get similar restrictions to pop up seems to indicate in hindsight that all of the macs in the schools were centrally controlled and managed by Macintosh manager or a similar program.

any idea where to go with this in an attempt to fall down the rabbit hole? Any idea what the appropriate set up would be to emulate such an environment? I’m not necessarily sure if the at ease thing that ran under system seven and eight would have some sort of network component or even how to set that up. is there a network component to at ease? Would it be breaking the universe if I attempted to network two or more emulated macs? If it wasn’t Macintosh manager, what on earth do you suspect it was that was creating the particular environment? how can I identify if it was indeed Macintosh manager? I may not necessarily remember the details of all those years back, but if you can point me in the directions of screenshots of things like login windows or things that I as a student would’ve been exposed to, that may jog my memory enough.

Since discretionary income is hard to come by on a fixed income, the best way to fall down the rabbit hole it seems is emulation. Any ideas on how to re-create this set up from my youth would be a wonderful addition. Thank you for any assistance given and I appreciate your time in reading this.

note: in high school there was an entire OS X lab running 10.4 that I hope to re-create the experience of in software some day
 
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Hi:

i read over everything in the source link and that seems to be more a NetBoot server than the Macintosh manager software I’m looking for at least based on my understanding of the words on the page, but please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Also, I’m on a windows PC with emulated PowerPC Mac
 
Hi:

i read over everything in the source link and that seems to be more a NetBoot server than the Macintosh manager software I’m looking for at least based on my understanding of the words on the page, but please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Also, I’m on a windows PC with emulated PowerPC Mac
The Macintosh Manager extension is part of the Netboot package. To use Macintosh Manager, you need to have an OS X Server serving the OS. In your case, 9.0.4.

What OSs are you currently emulating on your PC?
 
The Macintosh Manager extension is part of the Netboot package. To use Macintosh Manager, you need to have an OS X Server serving the OS. In your case, 9.0.4.

What OSs are you currently emulating on your PC?

right now I’m trying to go down the rabbit hole of mac os 9.0.4 emulation (if not multiple emulators running at once). System 7 is somewhere on my list for future plan outs and plenty of windows and linux in VMWare
 
right now I’m trying to go down the rabbit hole of mac os 9.0.4 emulation (if not multiple emulators running at once). System 7 is somewhere on my list for future plan outs and plenty of windows and linux in VMWare
Hmmm. You may need to emulate, say, OS X 10.4, then run SheepShaver to emulate OS 9.

Macintosh Manager will need to be set up differently, though. You'll need to emulate 10.4 Server (and specifically Server) then configure NetBoot with a copy of 9.0.4. From there, you need a separate VM to house the NetBoot'd OS 9 image using Macintosh Manager.

This is all hypothetical, of course. YMMV ;)
 
Hmmm. You may need to emulate, say, OS X 10.4, then run SheepShaver to emulate OS 9.

Macintosh Manager will need to be set up differently, though. You'll need to emulate 10.4 Server (and specifically Server) then configure NetBoot with a copy of 9.0.4. From there, you need a separate VM to house the NetBoot'd OS 9 image using Macintosh Manager.

This is all hypothetical, of course. YMMV ;)

sounds like a fun thought experiment… I recall a bit about the login window:

youd boot the mac and a window would come up, in the upper left of that window would be a picture of either a hand holding a platter with icons for files and a printer on top (i think) or a picture of a globe, a hand and the aforementioned platter (i think there might have been a telephone pole and a mac as well)

towards the bottom of this window would be Two radio buttons one for (i think) “authenticated user” (or was it “registered user” or even “Authorized user”) and “Guest”. Selecting the first one would’ve asked for ID and password in two boxes, the second one (guest) would hide those boxes and just let you click OK.

Again, expecting me to remember the exact placement of the controls is like asking my dad what he had for lunch in the third grade. Near impossible. Also, my description of the little icon in the upper left may very well be wsy the heck off base…. If I could just find a picture of that freaking login screen that would jog my memory. At least to confirm whether that was the login screen, otherwise I don’t know what would’ve produced that
 
sounds like a fun thought experiment… I recall a bit about the login window:

youd boot the mac and a window would come up, in the upper left of that window would be a picture of either a hand holding a platter with icons for files and a printer on top (i think) or a picture of a globe, a hand and the aforementioned platter (i think there might have been a telephone pole and a mac as well)

towards the bottom of this window would be Two radio buttons one for (i think) “authenticated user” (or was it “registered user” or even “Authorized user”) and “Guest”. Selecting the first one would’ve asked for ID and password in two boxes, the second one (guest) would hide those boxes and just let you click OK.

Again, expecting me to remember the exact placement of the controls is like asking my dad what he had for lunch in the third grade. Near impossible. Also, my description of the little icon in the upper left may very well be wsy the heck off base…. If I could just find a picture of that freaking login screen that would jog my memory. At least to confirm whether that was the login screen, otherwise I don’t know what would’ve produced that
Take a peek at this site:


TONS of trip-down-memory-lane stuff :)
 
Take a peek at this site:


TONS of trip-down-memory-lane stuff :)

trip down memory lane? Absolutely, shows the login window I’m after… nothing close in the mac section. I think it’s lost to time :(

edit: I’ve identified it was OS 8.x at one site fore sure (system 8 had the old gray startup bar like system 7 not the “purple goo” startup bar like system 9 and OS 8 was the first to have the “crooked folders”* that were purple by default rather than flat boring folders that were kind of a blue color)… now what on esrth was that login window

* (1) still influences how i look at common file folders to this day (Why must they be flat and boring?) and (2) i never knew quite how to describe the look of the OS 8/9 folder icon as opposed to the one in system 6/7 (which is obviously flat) so the bet term i to this day can come up with is “crooked standing folder” as opposed to “flat folder”… UGH! Can someone find a better way to describe that OS 8/9 folder? I wonder if there’s a mac OS 9 style icon set for windows now that I think of it…
 
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a picture of either a hand holding a platter with icons for files and a printer on top (i think) or a picture of a globe

Is it the Chooser?
300px-Chooser_on_Mac_OS_9.png
chooser.gif


"At Ease" became Macintosh Manager, a component of Mac OS X Server.

 
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yes! Yes! Yes! after enough zooming and eye straining on those screenshots i was able to lake out the words “Apple”and “Share” and just like those examples. After reading up on ot, I don’t think AppleShare had a login manager (at least st wasn’t mentioned in tje Wikipedia article on the topic). Oh my goodness! @mmphosis you might very well have have saved the day!

** Follow-up edit ** the chooser icon for AppleShare looks strikingly like the icon I’m thinking of… but I don’t think the chooser ever would’ve come up asking for a login while the machine was booting up, that’s the one part that’s got me stumped. The machine would bong, several extensions would load, then it would stop the login window waiting for either an authorized user or guest. Otherwise it would just sit there.
 
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Depending on your host system, you can try setting up 10.4 intel on a VirtualBox and install BootMania.
You can setup a netbook server for netbooting OS9 with that.
With SheepShaver, it might be more difficult, cause it uses Slirp by default for ethernet connection, which creates a virtual network out of your local IP range... unless your host is a linux, you can't built the Ethernet driver for it, but is again not so easy on certains distros...
 
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Hi Everyone:

I just wanted to post a quick update. I got TCP/IP networking working as follows:

1. Download and install, then configure one instance of the OpenVPN TAP driver for as many virtual macs as needed
2. Rename each new virtual TAP device something memorable in network & internet connections (Start > Run > ncpa.cpl) (since I was simulating a school network with 4 machines the obvious choices were “Teacher”, “student1”, “student 2”, and “student 3”.). Optionally put the word “Lab” at the end or beginning that way you can easily identify your virtual adapters later
3. Configure a virtual network using VMWare workstation’s Virtual Network Editor then install a Windows server 2003 standard and configure DNS and DHCP
4. Use windows “bridge network” feature to bridge the VMWare network adapter and all the virtual TAP devices
5. Configure each instance of SheepShaver to use the appropriate virtual TAP device (this is where reasonable names come in for the virtually TAP devices)
6. Start up the windows server first (thus it acts as a router) then start up each virtual mac.
7. Check in each mac’s TCP/IP control panel if it’s receiving a dynamic IP from your DHCP server in the range you specified (for me it was 10.64.0.100-254)). If it’s getting an IP from the network as expected, then feel free to move to step 8; If it’s not receiving a dynamic IP, check your work in the previous steps.
8. Optionally assign static IPs or DHCP reservations
9. Configure file sharing control panel on each mac to give an owner name, owner password, and computer name.
10. Have fun.

If you have any suggestions on how to improve this guide, please feel free to let me know. As of right now, this is just a rough outline of the process that worked for me and I’m sure someone could smooth out the edges to get a more complete guide working. I encourage The community to take the information from this post and make it better than us helping someone else in the future.

Now the only question is how on earth do I get Apple talk working over virtual ethernet?
 
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Hi Everyone:

I just wanted to post a quick update. I got TCP/IP networking working as follows:

1. Download and install, then configure one instance of the OpenVPN TAP driver for as many virtual macs as needed
2. Rename each new virtual TAP device something memorable in network & internet connections (Start > Run > ncpa.cpl) (since I was simulating a school network with 4 machines the obvious choices were “Teacher”, “student1”, “student 2”, and “student 3”.). Optionally put the word “Lab” at the end or beginning that way you can easily identify your virtual adapters later
3. Configure a virtual network using VMWare workstation’s Virtual Network Editor then install a Windows server 2003 standard and configure DNS and DHCP
4. Use windows “bridge network” feature to bridge the VMWare network adapter and all the virtual TAP devices
5. Configure each instance of SheepShaver to use the appropriate virtual TAP device (this is where reasonable names come in for the virtually TAP devices)
6. Start up the windows server first (thus it acts as a router) then start up each virtual mac.
7. Check in each mac’s TCP/IP control panel if it’s receiving a dynamic IP from your DHCP server in the range you specified (for me it was 10.64.0.100-254)). If it’s getting an IP from the network as expected, then feel free to move to step 8; If it’s not receiving a dynamic IP, check your work in the previous steps.
8. Optionally assign static IPs or DHCP reservations
9. Configure file sharing control panel on each mac to give an owner name, owner password, and computer name.
10. Have fun.

If you have any suggestions on how to improve this guide, please feel free to let me know. As of right now, this is just a rough outline of the process that worked for me and I’m sure someone could smooth out the edges to get a more complete guide working. I encourage The community to take the information from this post and make it better than us helping someone else in the future.

Now the only question is how on earth do I get Apple talk working over virtual ethernet?
In the Appletalk control panel, setting AppleTalk to use ethernet ?

Thanks, I did not know Sheepshaver could connect through tap.
 
In the Appletalk control panel, setting AppleTalk to use ethernet ?

Thanks, I did not know Sheepshaver could connect through tap.

quick Reminder: using this guide will COMPLETELY ISOLATE your lab from connecting to the outside world unless you set up a default gateway.

i did try setting apple talk to ethernet and got errors when savung to check my settings

*** Update 2021.07.03 @ 13:10 PST***
After completely trashing all four emulated macs, re-setting them up anew, and configuring the appropriate settings… I was able to get basic file sharing to work!

1. Follow the guide as above
2. Go to AppleTalk control panel
3. Choose Edit > User Mode then select advanced
4. Choose the “Ethernet” option in the “Connect Via” popmenu
5. Check ON the “User defined” box next to “AppleTalk Address”
6. In the “Node” text box enter a node number (between 1 and 255 according to my research and basic understanding). This is THIS MAC’s unique address on the network
7. In the “Network” text box, enter a number between 0 and 65534. This number MUST BE THE SAME for EACH AND EVERY mac you want to participate in the network.
8. Close and save

to check if all went well, take these steps:
1. Create a folder memorable (example: shared folder) on each mac
2. Open the file sharing control panel then choose “Users & Groups” tab, create a sample user (example; student1) and give it a password (example: student1)
3. Go to “Activity Monitor” tab
4. Drag/drop your shared folder into the “Shared Items” box
5. When the “Shared folder info” box comes up, check ON the “Share this item and its contents” box and set owner with read/write permissions and your example under “user/group” pick your example user and give read/write permission. Then close down the “Shared item info” box
6. Start file sharing
7. On each client mac open network browser from the apple menu. Once network browser opens, expand AppleTalk. If you see each computer great! Now you can connect through the chooser over appleTalk!

tada! Hope this helps
 
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quick Reminder: using this guide will COMPLETELY ISOLATE your lab from connecting to the outside world unless you set up a default gateway.

i did try setting apple talk to ethernet and got errors when savung to check my settings
Don't have a SheepShaver connecting with something else than slirp,
but it does that too on my BasiliskII connecting with the sheep_net ethernet driver ... can't save the settings.

Have you checked here ? :
Says "This also allows Appletalk to work."...

Edit: oh, I see you posted on the forum there already :)
 
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Well… Well:

this whole exercise just took a turn for the interesting. After connecting from the chooser to my example file Share on Teacher1, in the screen asking which items to use, there was a note at the bottom stating that the selected items reconnect on start up and offering to remember just my login name or save both login name and password to keychain (wow! Keychain was a thing become OS X… wow). After doing a quick restart, I get presented with the following dialogue which is very reminiscent of what I was after.

F5E472DA-8564-43BB-B9F3-12FD4E80AE2B.png

screen 1: very similar dialog to what is now a fuzzy memory from 3rd, and/or 4th grade.

here’s the one problem though… If you look at the below screenshot, you’ll see that the local hard disk is mounted with no other icons. While I have tried double-clicking the exposed disk icon to no avail (the whole GUI wouldn’t do anything until either cancel was clicked or until I logged in). This whole thing made me go “Huh?” And “just like windows 95, 98, and ME… just click cancel to be god on the local mac.” If memory serves me correctly (which it very well might not) 1) the local disk NEVER showed up until you logged on. Or
2) At ease would show up after login (at site 62 anyway… site 64 didn’t have* At Ease).

if failing memory served me right… cancel was greyed out thus forcing a user to login. Again not too sure

CDEC2BB5-9496-4715-BF22-54AC2A0B2C10.png

Screen 2: Mac login that made me go “huh?”

* Site 64’s computer lab didn’t have At Ease but each teacher could optionally turn it on for his/her classroom mac. All macs at site 62 had it.
 
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You'll be thinking of the 'overall' login screen. Turn the computer on, get the Mac OS "Starting Up..." screen, then get a screen asking you to log into your account (before Finder appears). The Macs at university were set up like that.

I have no idea how to configure it myself though!
 
You'll be thinking of the 'overall' login screen. Turn the computer on, get the Mac OS "Starting Up..." screen, then get a screen asking you to log into your account (before Finder appears). The Macs at university were set up like that.

I have no idea how to configure it myself though!

yep! That’s the flow :). How to set it up only the higher powers above know
 
Quick update:

after upgrading to AppleShare IP 6.2 from 5.0.2 and client machines to AppleShare client 3.8.6 from 3.8.6 (Apparently a downgrade if you go by the numbers in the lower right (beneath the “Connect” button) the “Macintosh HD” no longer shows on the desktop until one is logged on. You can still hit the cancel button but hey progress :)

find below and after screenshots


40E72597-353B-4551-AFB9-A4E9F264D4F9.png

screen 1: original login window with AppleShare IP 5.0.2 server



D9763281-1450-453A-B646-271E6526AE19.png

Screen 2: original full screen that made me go “huh?” with exposed “Macintosh HD” icon on desktop prior to login



1B6859CD-F584-40CC-A093-8BC8B7A49ECF.png

screen 3: login window after AppleShare 6.0.2 upgrade

A46336E8-0F2B-4D0B-B919-98DE498B55E3.png

screen 4: full screen grab with no more behavior causing me to go “huh?”

please note, I have no idea if the setting in the “General Controls” control panel called “Show Desktop whenin background” has anything to do with it. In student1 I have this box turned off, but I’ve yet to upgrade student2 or student3 on the AppleShare client. I’ll report back as soon as I know more.

update (at least 1.5 hours (maybe 2) later):

after updating to OpenTransport 3.1.3 (client installer complained my version on student2 was less than the required 1.2.x) then installing the AppleShare client found on the server… and checking the above mentioned box, restarting and seeing the same behavior that originally had me scratching my head then unchecking and repeating the restart process… I seriously have no further idea. It fixed itself on student1 but on student2 it still makes my head hurt exhibiting the same behavior. :(. I think I’ll shelve this one until later before my brain explodes :D
 
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You'll be thinking of the 'overall' login screen. Turn the computer on, get the Mac OS "Starting Up..." screen, then get a screen asking you to log into your account (before Finder appears). The Macs at university were set up like that.

I have no idea how to configure it myself though!
Sounds a lot like a MacOS9 netboot.
looks like this (on a French OS9...) :

OS922-02.jpg

OS922-03.jpg

Witold-Pilecki-130119.jpg
 
Wow! That looks cool! If only I had the right infrastructure to pull that off. I kind of got a similar login prompt (to what I remember) using AppleShare
Yes, a virtual machine can serve as a netboot server.
But for clients, netbooting a Sheepshaver , mmhh... don't think it's possible.
Qemu maybe ? but never seen that.
 
Yes, a virtual machine can serve as a netboot server.
But for clients, netbooting a Sheepshaver , mmhh... don't think it's possible.
Qemu maybe ? but never seen that.

this is going to get real ridiculous real fast as I’m looking for an ISO of 10.4 server intel to test all of this out at some point. Further, I’m upgrading my machine to 16 GB of RAM next week from 4 GB :)
 
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