Looking for the next step beyond HV30

smitha96

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2005
101
0
Hi,
I'm looking for what I think is a prosumer camera just a step above the HV 30.

It'll be used for video taping soccer matches, with an emphasis on crop and cut editing for referee development. We are going to be pulling clips to use as examples in referee training and assessment.

Given our goals, I imagine we are looking for a progressive scan video camera functioning at a high resolution (1080 p) with an empahis on high image quality in outdoor lighting and fast movement.

So, any suggestions for a camera? I think our budget is between $1,000 - 3,000 with an attempt to stay closer to $1,000.
 

acearchie

macrumors 68040
Jan 15, 2006
3,269
103
Hi there,

What do you feel that the HV30 lacks that you need from the new camera?
 
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smitha96

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2005
101
0
Are you sure you want 1080p and not 1080i or 720p for sports?
I think so. Why would we want 1080i for sports? I'd like the 1080p as it seems to be best suited for our need but I could be wrong. Storage capacity isn't an issue.
 
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puckhead193

macrumors G3
May 25, 2004
9,246
473
NY
whats important to you? I know when i shoot sports i always want a longer zoom with little to low noise at the full length and sound is important for my work.
 
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LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
9,368
119
Los Angeles
I think so. Why would we want 1080i for sports? I'd like the 1080p as it seems to be best suited for our need but I could be wrong. Storage capacity isn't an issue.
For sports you want a fast frame rate so that the fast motion looks smooth. 1080i60 or 720p60 are used by the networks for sports for this reason. 1080p24 or 1080p30 is going to look choppy in comparison. Going progressive will yield a cleaner looking image, especially if you are slowing it down, but you don't want to sacrifice frame rate.


Lethal
 
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neutrino23

macrumors 68000
Feb 14, 2003
1,738
229
SF Bay area
You might want to check the kind of shutter used. Some cameras use a rolling shutter. This kind of video is not very amenable to correction of camera movement in iMovie.
 
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smitha96

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2005
101
0
whats important to you? I know when i shoot sports i always want a longer zoom with little to low noise at the full length and sound is important for my work.
what's important to us is being able to get wide angle shots of the field and so we can review incidents of misconduct that happen outside the field of vision of the referee. We are also looking to see as much of the field as possible to get a feel for the referees positioning during the match - we want to try to keep the referee and the play on the ball in the same frame. I don't know that ugh quality sound is important, external mice or low light performance, other than stadium games played at night under the lights. Any suggestions?
 
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smitha96

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2005
101
0
Yes it is. It's a "pSf" mode, which is basically progressive frames inside an interlaced signal, but it works well.
Is this at 24 frames per second? Also, do you happen to know if it's on the hv20 as well? Many thanks.
 
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smitha96

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2005
101
0
For sports you want a fast frame rate so that the fast motion looks smooth. 1080i60 or 720p60 are used by the networks for sports for this reason. 1080p24 or 1080p30 is going to look choppy in comparison. Going progressive will yield a cleaner looking image, especially if you are slowing it down, but you don't want to sacrifice frame rate.


Lethal
Yes this is what i'm looking for. Is there a camera in the $1500-$2000 range that you might recommend? Many thanks!
 
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Policar

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2004
637
5
The hv30 is an amazing camera. If you know its limitations, you can do almost anything with it; if used correctly it can intercut with cameras 10 times its price no problem. So long as your indoor games are well lit, it should be fine, maybe with just a little more grain than you'd get outdoors.

The hv30 shoots in 1080/60i, 1080/30p, and 1080/24psf. 108060i has twice the framerate of 1080p so you can see motion more clearly, but it has half the vertical resolution, so it's not good for extracting still images or seeing fine detail. If you're playing back on a computer, progressive scan is your best bet. If you're playing back on a tv or going to broadcast, 60i is usually better. 24psf exists to emulate the look of film. So for sports, you probably want to shoot in 1080/60i, and the hv30 can do that; you just have to set it to that mode.

If you are doing a lot of telephoto work with camera movement, the hv30 has problems due to its rolling shutter. What this means is that the image wobbles if you pan or tilt too fast, particularly when zoomed in. Here's what it looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcycneFY9lw&feature=related However, if the camera is static on a tripod by the sidelines, this will be much less of an issue, though fast motion on the field will show some subtle distortion (not across the frame, but the players may appear skewed slightly to an angle).

There are surprisingly few good cameras with wide angle lenses available for under $5000. You can buy a wide angle adapter for the hv30 (made by canon; don't buy off-brand) for $150-$200 and this should get you about as wide as any other camera, particularly in 16X9 mode.

Rather than ask what the step up from the hv30 is, a question to which there are dozens of answers contingent on a given user's needs and wants, why don't you tell us what about the hv30 has thus far proven insufficient. With that information, it'll be a lot easier to suggest to you a better camera, as there are countless options each with unique virtues and limitations. (Some with wider lenses, some with better resolution, some that record to tape or to memory cards, some with higher bitrate for clearer images, some better for narrative work, others for documentary work, etc.)
 
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smitha96

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2005
101
0
Rather than ask what the step up from the hv30 is, a question to which there are dozens of answers contingent on a given user's needs and wants, why don't you tell us what about the hv30 has thus far proven insufficient. With that information, it'll be a lot easier to suggest to you a better camera, as there are countless options each with unique virtues and limitations. (Some with wider lenses, some with better resolution, some that record to tape or to memory cards, some with higher bitrate for clearer images, some better for narrative work, others for documentary work, etc.)
Great, thanks for all the detail.

In order of importance, I think what I am looking for is:
1) high resolution
2) ability to capture sports action
3) high quality, very little to no compression
4) iMovie support
5) wide angle support
6) professional appearance to body of camera
7) records clips to internal camera hard drive

One reason I am trying to avoid the HV30 is because it is still a consumer camera - I'm looking for a "pro" look. While this issue appears superficial, it's something that is still a big deal for me. People need to know they're getting the real thing and this camera doesn't show it.

Second, I think I'd be helpful to have a camera that records to a hard drive, allowing me to easily review and delete unimportant clips without having to first load the video onto a laptop. That said, video quality is still very important to me.

These issues are low on my list of priorities, but I'd still like to see if anyone has additional camera suggestions that I might investigate.

Again, thanks for everyone's input and I'd appreciate any insight.
 
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Illmetaphor

macrumors member
Mar 15, 2009
56
0
Smitha I am in the same boat as you.I think I might go with HV 30. It it still consumer, but it looks very professional to me. I have sampled a good amount of HV-30 work on YouTube and the picture quality looked very good.
 
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Policar

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2004
637
5
Unfortunately, mid-end prosumer isn't my area of knowledge, but there are a lot of good cameras in that price range that look professional and record good quality 1080/60i footage to flash media. (All of them compress footage heavily, though, but "good enough" in most cases.) Generally, prosumer cameras don't have internal hard drives; that's more of a consumer camera feature.

Panasonic's hmc40 is well-liked and does 1080i, but it has a CMOS chip, which is the same kind of chip that gives the skew or "jello" effect with fast motion so it's not ideal for sports, but it should be okay if you shoot wide angle and use a tripod (CMOS cameras are bad for telephoto work and fast camera movement). It has a 40mm equivalent lens, which isn't very wide, though. The panasnic hmc-150 has a CCD for good motion and a 28mm equivalent lens (very wide for a prosumer camera), but it's expensive and only resolves about 720p detail, even in 1080p mode.

The xha1 is very nice and has a CCD that resolves full 1080i, but it records to minidv tapes, not hard drives. It has a 32mm equivalent lens, which is just okay.

Sony's FX-1000 is popular, too, but I know nothing about it. It has a CMOS sensor and it records to tape, but it has a wide angle lens (29.5mm equivalent) and true 1080i resolution. The Sony EX1, built on similar technology, is just about the best camera for the money, so this camera is probably great, but I've never met anyone who owns one. The EX1 is expensive and substantially more difficult to operate than other cameras in its price range, but this looks more normal. If you must record to hard drive, Sony sells a hard drive recorder for its HDV cameras, but I don't know anyone who uses one and it's very expensive and outdated for what it does and it may not even be compatible with newer cameras ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._HVRDR60_Hard_Disk_Recording.html#accessories ).

Hard drive recording (excepting uncompressed or prores capture for studio work, which is obviously not iMovie compatible) is really a consumer feature (tape or media card cameras are more professional), so it looks like there's no perfect camera for you, but a lot of good options. And there are good wide angle adapters available for most prosumer cameras, but they are expensive, especially if you want zoom-through (not limited to widest focal length).

And for those judging on the basis of image quality alone, the hv30 beats even the last generation of high end cameras (hvx200, etc.) in straight-up image quality, but its low light is inferior, it has bad skew, and it has a clumsy interface with limited manual control (no independent aperature/shutter speed adjustment, etc.)
 
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matteusclement

macrumors 65816
Jan 26, 2008
1,144
0
victoria
$800 pro looking camera?

Sorry to say, but a HD camera for $800 that "looks pro" seems unrealistic.
I shoot the hv30 and I feel your pain on the "pro look".
If people question my work, I tell them to look at my YouTube or take a moment to explain that all computers are getting smaller but are getting better too. Why not cameras?
 
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