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Looking to buy a Mac Mini G4 - What to look for?

DearthnVader said:
I'm not sure what I can do, we can try some of the later 'NDRV's for the Silent Upgrade and see if they don't have the issue I ran into that forced me to use the one from 10.3.7?( I think ).

I don't remember what the issue was anymore, but it was something.....
Click to expand...

Please try to remember, if you can. I've been staring at dissassembly of both of the drivers, the one that you used and the latest one and they don't look that different to me. I have a feeling that the solution is right in front of my nose, but I can't see it due to lack of experience.

Check the Compatible property for the Silent Upgrade and see if they changed it. I don't remember what the Old Mini's property was?

If they changed it there will be a New 'NDRV' we've never tried before.
Click to expand...

Both Minis are identical.
name ATY,RockHopper2_A
compatible ATY,RockHopper2
 
Michael.S said:
I am recently into buying a mac mini G4.
Think, it makes a good addition on my desk and I can drive my 30" Apple Cinema display with it.

Couple of questions though.

With respect to System 9 software - I plan to run the Adobe suite there, mostly Illustrator though - would you still recommend a MM G4?
Or would you rather go with an older Intel based MM and run on Rosetta?

If G4, which config? Is it best to look for the maxed out 1.5 GHz PPC or is a 1.42 GHz good enough?
The 1 being pretty rare - at least in Germany, where I live, while the latter is quite common.

Would it be possible to run a dual boot setup on it (Sys 9 and MacOs X)?

Will the 30" ACD wuold be able show a picture? Or is this just to large resolution for a MM G4.

Appreciate any serious anwers.
Click to expand...
So to answer your original question, if you want to drive a non-coherent display at a resolution higher than say 1280x720 like a modern TV @1920x1080, then you want to hold out for the Silent Upgrade 1.5GHz Mini if you can find one.

If a display in Coherent or Non-Coherent isn't really something they advertise in the specs when you buy it and I've never seen it anywhere even when I looked for it.

The Silent Upgrade has an external TMDS to override the limits of the R9200's builtin TMDS that has the pixel clock limit below 167MHz for full DVI.

You still likely won't be able to run Apple's 30" at full res, as we don't have Dual-Link DVI bandwidth out of a single TMDS, it would require two.

I think most modern display, especially TV's are non-coherent, but that's just what I think and I don't have a Mini G4 anymore to test it.
 
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DearthnVader said:
The Silent Upgrade has an external TMDS to override the limits of the R9200's builtin TMDS that has the pixel clock limit below 167MHz for full DVI.
Click to expand...
The non-coherent 135 MHz limit is enough for 1600×1200 or 1680×1050 at 60 Hz using CVT-RB timings (i.e. on an LCD).

DearthnVader said:
You still likely won't be able to run Apple's 30" at full res, as we don't have Dual-Link DVI bandwidth out of a single TMDS, it would require two.
Click to expand...
The 30" will definitely only do pixel-doubled 1280×800 when there's no dual-link input.
 
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DearthnVader said:
So to answer your original question, if you want to drive a non-coherent display at a resolution higher than say 1280x720 like a modern TV @1920x1080, then you want to hold out for the Silent Upgrade 1.5GHz Mini if you can find one.

If a display in Coherent or Non-Coherent isn't really something they advertise in the specs when you buy it and I've never seen it anywhere even when I looked for it.

The Silent Upgrade has an external TMDS to override the limits of the R9200's builtin TMDS that has the pixel clock limit below 167MHz for full DVI.

You still likely won't be able to run Apple's 30" at full res, as we don't have Dual-Link DVI bandwidth out of a single TMDS, it would require two.

I think most modern display, especially TV's are non-coherent, but that's just what I think and I don't have a Mini G4 anymore to test it.
Click to expand...
I don’t know if we’re talking about the same thing but having upgraded about 15 of these my experience with the current state:
- all Mac Mini G4s work in Mac OS X at 1920 x 1080 on my modern Dell monitor via DVI to HDMI
- due to software limitations in the v9 image available from Mac OS 9 Lives the silent upgrade machines do not run at 1920 x 1080 in Mac OS 9, but the 1.25 and 1.42 do

So if you plan to run Mac OS 9, you will actually have an easier time with the 1.42 than the 1.5.
 
davecom said:
I don’t know if we’re talking about the same thing but having upgraded about 15 of these my experience with the current state:
- all Mac Mini G4s work in Mac OS X at 1920 x 1080 on my modern Dell monitor via DVI to HDMI
- due to software limitations in the v9 image available from Mac OS 9 Lives the silent upgrade machines do not run at 1920 x 1080 in Mac OS 9, but the 1.25 and 1.42 do

So if you plan to run Mac OS 9, you will actually have an easier time with the 1.42 than the 1.5.
Click to expand...

... aaaand you can also (usually) overclock the 1.42 to 1.5, without the issues that the actual 1.5 hardware has...
 
swamprock said:
... aaaand you can also (usually) overclock the 1.42 to 1.5, without the issues that the actual 1.5 hardware has...
Click to expand...
You certainly can, but for me a 5% performance increase is not worth it when these things already scream in Mac OS 9. You get a lot more bang for your time getting an SSD.
 
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davecom said:
I don’t know if we’re talking about the same thing but having upgraded about 15 of these my experience with the current state:
- all Mac Mini G4s work in Mac OS X at 1920 x 1080 on my modern Dell monitor via DVI to HDMI
- due to software limitations in the v9 image available from Mac OS 9 Lives the silent upgrade machines do not run at 1920 x 1080 in Mac OS 9, but the 1.25 and 1.42 do

So if you plan to run Mac OS 9, you will actually have an easier time with the 1.42 than the 1.5.
Click to expand...
Interesting, I assume you are using the stock ATI drivers, not the hacked ones?

With the exception of the 'NDRV'.

Elliot made a change in the Mac OS ROM for the Mini that eliminates the need for the hacked drivers I made for the Mini. Running both the patched ROM and the Hacked drivers can lead to unpredictable results....
 
DearthnVader said:
Interesting, I assume you are using the stock ATI drivers, not the hacked ones?

With the exception of the 'NDRV'.

Elliot made a change in the Mac OS ROM for the Mini that eliminates the need for the hacked drivers I made for the Mini. Running both the patched ROM and the Hacked drivers can lead to unpredictable results....
Click to expand...
I only run the stock v9 image. There’s a long thread on this in the Mac OS 9 lives forum. Thanks for your work on this.
 
davecom said:
As I mentioned already, silent upgrades machines will not work correctly at higher resolutions. If you mean specifically how it looks—it looks garbled with blurry big pixels. There are screenshots in this thread:

Mac Mini G4 display compatibility

Mac Mini G4 display compatibility
macos9lives.com
Click to expand...
Ok, it looks like the Silent Upgrade shipped with a build of 10.4.2, so when I have time I'll compile a RockHopper2 'NDRV' from 10.4.3 and we can see if this works better.

The issue with the 'NDVR's past 10.3.7 was changing screen resolutions would end up with only the desktop picture and no disk or finder. If I recall correctly.

Hopeful the Silent Upgrade doesn't have this issue.
 
DearthnVader said:
Ok, it looks like the Silent Upgrade shipped with a build of 10.4.2, so when I have time I'll compile a RockHopper2 'NDRV' from 10.4.3 and we can see if this works better.
Click to expand...

I already did it. Using ATY,RockHopper2-1.0.1f100.pef from Elliot's GitHub repo. Silent upgrade Mini and regular one both freeze at the moment when ATI extensions load.
Both versions attached - yours (f63) and the latest (f100)
 

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ojfd said:
I already did it. Using ATY,RockHopper2-1.0.1f100.pef from Elliot's GitHub repo. Silent upgrade Mini and regular one both freeze at the moment when ATI extensions load.
Both versions attached - yours (f63) and the latest (f100)
Click to expand...
Check with Ross and see if the V9 cd has Elliot's updated ROM and the newest ATI drivers, not the hacked drivers.
 
Yes, v9 CD has updated ROM and newest, original, untouched ATI drivers.
Problems with silent upgrade Minis and certain displays (1920x1200; 1920x1080; 1680x1050) when connected over DVI persist.
 
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DearthnVader said:
Have you tried to disable the ATI Graphics Accelerator with this 'NDRV'?
Click to expand...
Do you mean booting with ATI Via Driver containing f100 NDRV but without ATI Graphics Accelerator extension?
If so, then no, I don't think so. But I can do it if you think that it will help to eliminate variables. Shall I?

P.S. I personally have a suspicion that ATI Resource Manager is the culprit here.
 
ojfd said:
Do you mean booting with ATI Via Driver containing f100 NDRV but without ATI Graphics Accelerator extension?
If so, then no, I don't think so. But I can do it if you think that it will help to eliminate variables. Shall I?

P.S. I personally have a suspicion that ATI Resource Manager is the culprit here.
Click to expand...
Normally when the Resource Manager hangs you can try and force quit it, and it will at least tell you that is what hung, but still requires a reboot.

Yes, try and disable the ATI Graphics Accelerator extension and see if that gets you to the Finder and the Desktop.
 
DearthnVader said:
Yes, try and disable the ATI Graphics Accelerator extension and see if that gets you to the Finder and the Desktop.
Click to expand...

Did as you suggested. 1.5 GHz silent upgrade Mini with 19" Fujitsu display using DVI to DVI cable.
Everything loads fine, except there is no acceleration.

ATI extensions in Extensions folder:

ATI Extension (March 2005, original)
ATI Resource Manager (v.3.2.1, February 2018, modified by you ;) )
ATI Via Driver (latest NDRV f100, made by me)

All others (3D etc.) are left out for the purpose of this test.
Any ideas what to look for?
 
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ojfd said:
Did as you suggested. 1.5 GHz silent upgrade Mini with 19" Fujitsu display using DVI to DVI cable.
Everything loads fine, except there is no acceleration.

ATI extensions in Extensions folder:

ATI Extension (March 2005, original)
ATI Resource Manager (v.3.2.1, February 2018, modified by you ;) )
ATI Via Driver (latest NDRV f100, made by me)

All others (3D etc.) are left out for the purpose of this test.
Any ideas what to look for?
Click to expand...
Is the display working correct with all the resolution you are looking to use it for?

I don't really remember what I modified in the Resource Manager or if that should be used with Elliot's patched Mac OS ROM. If there is a reason you are using my hacked version please let me know what it is?

Add the 3D stuff back and test a few 3d games, just don't add the ATI Graphics Accelerator back. It only accelerates 2D desktop anyway.

I had an issue with it myself causing lockups on both the Rage128 PCI and Radeon7000 PCI in both my PowerMac 9600 and my Beige G3. I never did figure it out. I tried every combination I could think of and ran conflict catcher.

This was on a fully supported system. No hacks whatsoever.

I even set the clock and data back to see if there was a time bomb in the extension that it would not work after a certain date.

Nothing fixed it, either I could run 2D acceleration and have lockups in 3D games, or I could run 3D games and have no desktop acceleration.

I suspect that is the issue you are having too, the 2D ATI Graphics Accelerator is causing the lockups.

Maybe we can install MacsBugs and step through the code until we find the issue.
 
DearthnVader said:
Is the display working correct with all the resolution you are looking to use it for?
Click to expand...

Yes.

I don't really remember what I modified in the Resource Manager or if that should be used with Elliot's patched Mac OS ROM.
Click to expand...

You've changed IDs from 5960 to 5962 in many (10+) instances. Elliot's patched ROM don't need it.

If there is a reason you are using my hacked version please let me know what it is?
Click to expand...

I'm running v8 ROM that does not contain f63 NDRV for the purpose of testing other NDRVs.
As you probably know from the 'other place', there exists a Merlin NDRV masquaraded as RockHopper that permits the use of some displays that f63 RockHopper can not talk to.
(I simply refuse to believe that this issue can not be solved).

Add the 3D stuff back and test a few 3d games, just don't add the ATI Graphics Accelerator back. It only accelerates 2D desktop anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't have any 3D games, sorry.
In fact, I only played Snood when I needed distraction from other things and maybe Tertis a few times during past 30 years.

Maybe we can install MacsBugs and step through the code until we find the issue.
Click to expand...

Do you know how to do it properly? I've never debugged any extensions in OS9..
 
ojfd said:
Yes.



You've changed IDs from 5960 to 5962 in many (10+) instances. Elliot's patched ROM don't need it.



I'm running v8 ROM that does not contain f63 NDRV for the purpose of testing other NDRVs.
As you probably know from the 'other place', there exists a Merlin NDRV masquaraded as RockHopper that permits the use of some displays that f63 RockHopper can not talk to.
(I simply refuse to believe that this issue can not be solved).



I don't have any 3D games, sorry.
In fact, I only played Snood when I needed distraction from other things and maybe Tertis a few times during past 30 years.



Do you know how to do it properly? I've never debugged any extensions in OS9..
Click to expand...
Elliot popped his head up, so I asked him to clarify his patches to the RockHopper2 'NDRV', I remember he patched the code to change the device ID and that fixed the issue of needing to patch the drivers.

So if he has time maybe we can get a new Mac OS ROM for the Silent Upgrade Mini's that includes the newer 'NDRV'.
 
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