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Looking to get a handgun
- Thread starter Simgar988
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I would advise against the Judge. Not because of my problems with Taurus, but because the .410 doesn't have nearly the penetration needed to be a good defensive round. The short barrel cuts down on velocity and greatly increases recoil. Even buckshot and a slug from the .410 proved to be too weak. Check out the tests here:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Anyway, I agree kellen on the HK USP and Sig. Both are excellent weapons and ultra-reliable. Too bad they are both so expensive. I have been leaning toward the Springfield XD as a carry weapon, though I am still evaluating.
I'm not considering penetration, I am aware of the short comings of the short barrel, any responsible gun owner is not out to kill. I consider the compactness and capability of carrying a single handed weapon portable enough in tight quarters as the average home that can put a certain amount of pellets into a persons hide rather than killing them. A full sized shotgun has a little bit of a disadvantage for maneuvering particularly so when not in the open. There are pro's and cons of course I agree it's a horrible open range weapon but for what it is it gives an advantage in specific situations concerning corridors, and not every home invader is some junkie all hopped up on PCP like they used to popularize as the norm back in the day....even the average drug abuser still feels pain when shot or when punched between the eyes for that matter.
You should consider penetration. It isn't just penetrating flesh. If someone is wearing multiple layers of clothing, or something like a heavy winter coat, a weapon with weak penetration may not even hit their flesh. Also, in a home defense situation, your first priority should be to stop the threat as soon as possible. That is why you need penetration. If it has come to the point where you have drawn a weapon, you have to be prepared for the fact that stopping said threat may involve you killing someone. I have seen reports of normal, non drugged people surviving hits from large caliber guns (.45ACP, .44Mag, etc) and pressing on with an attack. People do weird things when the fight or flight response kicks in. Some run, while others get pissed off and press on with the attack. That's when you read about a gun owner getting killed with his own gun during an attack.
Guns salesman here
I am a former gun salesman and my best friend who is also a salesman is a California certified gun instructor.
We always talk about one thing (him being from a small high, quality chain) and me coming from the nation's biggest gun dealer, and that's don't get a cheap gun...he he...from where I used to work. I won't mention their name now, but they are a Fortune 500, but many of the gun chains they have bought out do sell quality weapons.
DO NOT LISTEN TO THOSE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT GUNS AND TALK ABOUT PENETRATING POWER AND TELL YOU TO GO OUT AND GET A .44 OR 50 CAL. I WORKED FOR A GOVT. ORG (THREE LETTER ACRONYM) AND SOME OF THE EE'S WERE EX AND CURRENT SPECIAL FORCES AND THEY COULD KILL, AS COULD ANYBODY WITH MINIMAL TRAINING, WITH A VARIETY OF .22 CAL GUNS.
All I can say is buy a quality gun and not from a Fortune 500 sports store that is one of the biggest in the universe who also sells tennis rackets, golf clubs, yoga tights, and shoes.
As a gun salesman, I never steered anybody towards any certain company and found fans of many gun companies and they all had valid reasons as customers. People buy different guns for different needs. I tried to help them make an informed decision.
After handling more guns than probably everybody on this thread combined, unless they worked at the world's biggest dealer like me who mostly sold junk (but some good ones, too), go to a small gun store.
If you have the money, get a foreign 9 mm. with a magazine, or clip (as many out west call them). Forget about revolvers, even though I personally like them better.
I am a former gun salesman and my best friend who is also a salesman is a California certified gun instructor.
We always talk about one thing (him being from a small high, quality chain) and me coming from the nation's biggest gun dealer, and that's don't get a cheap gun...he he...from where I used to work. I won't mention their name now, but they are a Fortune 500, but many of the gun chains they have bought out do sell quality weapons.
DO NOT LISTEN TO THOSE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT GUNS AND TALK ABOUT PENETRATING POWER AND TELL YOU TO GO OUT AND GET A .44 OR 50 CAL. I WORKED FOR A GOVT. ORG (THREE LETTER ACRONYM) AND SOME OF THE EE'S WERE EX AND CURRENT SPECIAL FORCES AND THEY COULD KILL, AS COULD ANYBODY WITH MINIMAL TRAINING, WITH A VARIETY OF .22 CAL GUNS.
All I can say is buy a quality gun and not from a Fortune 500 sports store that is one of the biggest in the universe who also sells tennis rackets, golf clubs, yoga tights, and shoes.
As a gun salesman, I never steered anybody towards any certain company and found fans of many gun companies and they all had valid reasons as customers. People buy different guns for different needs. I tried to help them make an informed decision.
After handling more guns than probably everybody on this thread combined, unless they worked at the world's biggest dealer like me who mostly sold junk (but some good ones, too), go to a small gun store.
If you have the money, get a foreign 9 mm. with a magazine, or clip (as many out west call them). Forget about revolvers, even though I personally like them better.
Home defense?
Shotgun.
1. Aim is not such a big factor in the confines of a house if you gun has a good spread.
2. Limited collateral damage. The balls have little penetration and range.
3. In the dark, there is a sound that will send any crook running. It goes "ca-chink!"
I'm being serious, a shotgun is my preference for home defense. As well, imagine you're woken up by a noise. You're groggy and disoriented. A pistol requires fine motor skills while a shotgun is less intricate. As well you should learn to shoot and maintain your gun. Attach a flashlight and keep it by your bed with buckshot in the magazine, the chamber empty and the hammer down.
As for myself, I sleep with a P08 under my bed and find myself going at it if I hear a sound as I wake up, which is usually the mailman at the mailbox...yeah...paranoia saves.
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I recommend any big name shotty as long as it doesn't have 50 switches and levers. Pump action with a full-length magazine and a stock-grip, not pistol. Winchester, Browning, Benelli, all just as good.
As for .22lr, I saw an episode of COPS where a slug bounced off a fat guy's calf...like a damn bb...close range too.
Shotgun.
1. Aim is not such a big factor in the confines of a house if you gun has a good spread.
2. Limited collateral damage. The balls have little penetration and range.
3. In the dark, there is a sound that will send any crook running. It goes "ca-chink!"
I'm being serious, a shotgun is my preference for home defense. As well, imagine you're woken up by a noise. You're groggy and disoriented. A pistol requires fine motor skills while a shotgun is less intricate. As well you should learn to shoot and maintain your gun. Attach a flashlight and keep it by your bed with buckshot in the magazine, the chamber empty and the hammer down.
As for myself, I sleep with a P08 under my bed and find myself going at it if I hear a sound as I wake up, which is usually the mailman at the mailbox...yeah...paranoia saves.
I recommend any big name shotty as long as it doesn't have 50 switches and levers. Pump action with a full-length magazine and a stock-grip, not pistol. Winchester, Browning, Benelli, all just as good.
As for .22lr, I saw an episode of COPS where a slug bounced off a fat guy's calf...like a damn bb...close range too.
Would it be better to use rubber bullets for home use so no one can get killed? I guess it will be safer.
Is that a cheap option?
Is that a cheap option?
Look, I'm not advising anyone to go get a .44 mag or .50 cal. However, I know I would not want to use birdshot or a .22 as a primary defensive weapon. And it's not just me, it's a very common recommendation by many self-defense experts. Even the FBI recommends 12 inches of penetration for a defensive round. And a 9MM works just fine for that. I personally agree with your recommendation for a good 9mm semi-auto. There's a reason it's such a popular round. I also agree about revolvers. I'm still kicking myself for selling my Ruger Redhawk.
Look, the bottom line in a defensive round is the same as real estate: location, location, location. Shot placement is THE most important aspect, period. And this requires lots of training and practice.
Oh yeah, I also agree with smaller, specialized stores. You just have to be careful, as I have heard quite a bit of FUD coming from gun store employees. Not everyone is as non-biased as you.
There are about as many techniques and preferences for home defense.
Learn from a certified instructor if possible. I learned from a Sgt, Army Ranger to be exact.
Just don't watch Dirty Harry movies and think this fictional movie character is the be all and end all in gun wisdom.
He doesn't really live in Compton.... he was joking.
I eventually want to get a handgun as well, but I think I have to wait until I get my American citizenship first. I think going to a range and shooting would be a fun hobby. I used to shoot .22's at an overnight camp I went to back in Canada, and I loved that.... I was even on the riflery team.
I bought a Springfield Armory XD(m) 9mm last year and I love it. Don't get to shoot it as often as I'd like (hardly ever, really), but I love having it in the house. I also have a Benelli 12 gauge, but it's more set up for hunting than HD. My next gun will be either a mossberg or remmy with a short barrel and extended mag, for home defense.
For your pistol though, seriously check out Springfield Armory.
For your pistol though, seriously check out Springfield Armory.
I didn't realize I posted this in Politics, Religion, Social Issues...
oh wait, I didn't. You don't wanna gun, I do. I'd like to shoot back.
I'm looking to get a handgun and looking for advice from handgun owners on which to get. If one doesn't have a handgun, then their probably not going to be all too helpful to me in this thread.
(and yes I know its they're
)I didn't realize I posted this in Politics, Religion, Social Issues...
oh wait, I didn't. You don't wanna gun, I do. I'd like to shoot back.
I'm looking to get a handgun and looking for advice from handgun owners on which to get. If one doesn't have a handgun, then their probably not going to be all too helpful to me in this thread.
(and yes I know its they're
As you know, from above posts, I know a lot about guns compared to most people, and I don't own a gun. I am for a person's right to own a gun, but owning one is a personal choice. If somebody lives in hell and gets by w/o a gun, then so be it, I give them props.
If you're willing to head down the 405 and slum it in Orange County - let me know. I'll take you shooting. I'm a member of a range down here, and beyond the ammo and targets, it's free for me.
Is the OC really a slum?
I've only ventured down there once to Irvine for a meeting.
That would be cool. Thanks for the invite! I'm PMing you.....
Thanks I appreciate you're help. I wish I felt comfortable living without a gun, but I don't. I hope and know that I'll probably will never need to use it, and I'm not getting one in hopes of using one, but if the time comes where it's necessary, I want to be prepared.
I just really don't want this thread turning into a politics/ethics, who's right, who's wrong thread like so many on macrumors.
But once again, I appreciate everyone's help so far! I love being able to discuss and collaborate with people that care about helping and answering others questions based on their personal experience, in this case with guns.
Let's apply a little psychological logic here, what kinda crackhead is wearing five layers of wool sweaters and is actually high on the drugs they want not to feel pain? if they are high they are not concerned with the method of getting a fix because they are on their fix already and less likely statistically out there looking desperately for the means by which to get their fix. The worry is not about the person ON drugs already but the person off the drugs looking for the fix to get back into that euphoric state and what they are willing to do to get them. Let's add in probability to the issue...guns are a fine defense, I support the use of them, but not every invader is a drug enhanced superhuman as popular media suggests many are desperate for it and in a hyper sober state. People do weird things of course--if you are uneducated as to the subtleties of human nature, if you are these things are not quite so weird, and in general these things are predictable and controllable with the correct stimulus.
I apologize I got dragged in
Like OS's, is a matter of personal feeling and interaction with the firearm.
The 9 mm Glock 17 or 19 is very reliable, inexpensive (as far as guns go) work horse.
The caliber I recommended is based on a few factors; cost and recoil. There are other calibers out there, namely the 40 S&W and 45 ACP, but these are more expensive and harder to find; 9 mm is 20% to 50% cheaper then the other calibers and is in stock at more places. Also, the recoil of 9mm is not as strong. Added together, this means more practice for you.
Another point to consider is the availability of aftermarket items for your firearm. Many items are made to be firearm specific (e.g. holsters, buffers ect.). You do not want an uncommon firearm that is poorly supported in the aftermarket. Among other firearms, I have a Glock 17 and FN Herstal FiveSeveN. The FiveSeveN is very hard to find aftermarket items for, and until the recent Fort Hood Shooting, was a relatively obscure firearm. However, its very easy to find things for my Glock 17. As we can see with the iPhone and iPod, since there are so many of them, its easy to find products for them. Conversely, its rather hard to find products tailored to the other brands. For example, how many times have you seen Zune products in stores? Not many I would wager.
The 9 mm Glock 17 or 19 is very reliable, inexpensive (as far as guns go) work horse.
The caliber I recommended is based on a few factors; cost and recoil. There are other calibers out there, namely the 40 S&W and 45 ACP, but these are more expensive and harder to find; 9 mm is 20% to 50% cheaper then the other calibers and is in stock at more places. Also, the recoil of 9mm is not as strong. Added together, this means more practice for you.
Another point to consider is the availability of aftermarket items for your firearm. Many items are made to be firearm specific (e.g. holsters, buffers ect.). You do not want an uncommon firearm that is poorly supported in the aftermarket. Among other firearms, I have a Glock 17 and FN Herstal FiveSeveN. The FiveSeveN is very hard to find aftermarket items for, and until the recent Fort Hood Shooting, was a relatively obscure firearm. However, its very easy to find things for my Glock 17. As we can see with the iPhone and iPod, since there are so many of them, its easy to find products for them. Conversely, its rather hard to find products tailored to the other brands. For example, how many times have you seen Zune products in stores? Not many I would wager.