He goes into M1/2 macs using NANDs that are different from any other computer, how they short to ground, and if your SSD dies, you can't fix it unless you're willing to spend around $1,000 on a repair. He gets really detailed on the engineering, and it's pretty crazy what Apple is doing, to save a few bucks during the manufacturing process.
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Louis Rossman on soldered SSD
- Thread starter danbuter
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He goes into M1/2 macs using NANDs that are different from any other computer, how they short to ground, and if your SSD dies, you can't fix it unless you're willing to spend around $1,000 on a repair. He gets really detailed on the engineering, and it's pretty crazy what Apple is doing, to save a few bucks during the manufacturing process.
Better question is, when is the last time someones SSD died? Outside of anomalies most will last longer than the life of the machine especially in Apple’s case when it can’t be moved from computer to computer.
I don’t mind Louis but he obviously has an agenda and as someone who grew up building pc’s I just don’t care anymore about swapping parts but I do expect them to last. If I felt strongly about it I simply wouldn’t buy it.
I don’t mind Louis but he obviously has an agenda and as someone who grew up building pc’s I just don’t care anymore about swapping parts but I do expect them to last. If I felt strongly about it I simply wouldn’t buy it.
If some component failure occurred on the logic board, how would you get your data? Apple would just replace your logic board.
Every day, according to my frustrated genius bar guy, when one sent my logic board into the trash just out of Applecare. SSDs have a finite lifespan of about a thousand writes. The filesystem mitigates the effects of wear by various strategies but it still isnt a lot no matter how you spread it around, and the way Apple does SSDs, when one block goes, the whole SSD (& board) is shot. Soldering the ssds to the board serves only two purposes: 1, its cheaper to produce, and 2, it limits the lifespan of the entire machine to its fastest wearing component. When pressed Apple gave the excuse that it was required for the highest speed performance, though that was slower than plenty of non-soldiered drives outside the PR bubble. Rossman isnt incorrect, he sounds curmudgeonly because people pay him good money to repair Apple’s mistakes all day long, so when he sees thousands of them having the same few problems and digs into the root causes to find a fix, there are a lot more data points behind his opinion & frustrations than the “mine never failed so theres obv no problem” anecdotes in this thread.
You guys are discussing this like it's some foggy hypothetical. The complaining about this took place about 6 years ago when Apple got really aggressive about user-hostile design and cost engineering every nickel possible out of their production. Didn‘t matter. Apple doesnt care and neither do the kids. Every year fifty million more buy whatever is being sold when they go off to college, and they go right out and buy a new one when it dies, and that's just the way everyone likes it.
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Like @chabig said that’s what backups are for. The global tech industry runs backup software utilizing various techniques from companies like NetApp, etc and it’s a huge/valuable business.
Consumers these days know if they need to backup and Apple, Google, and Microsoft make it easy to utilize cloud backups. So while I completely understand your mindset the days that this is actually a common concern are niche.
If SSD drives were failing daily across the world I would like to think there would be a little more exposure especially on forums like this but it’s seemingly few and far between unless the age of the device is older. Honestly it’s impossible to quantify unless you have the Apple metrics.
You’re absolutely correct about everything else but like I said that’s Apple and until folks have a bad experience and decide to move on most people don’t care. If anything consumers expect their Apple devices to last forever or at least until their device is no longer supported. Maybe that’s what Apple is doing all along…aligning software support with expected hardware longevity so you don’t feel bad when your computer dies because it wasn’t being supported anyway. Consumers feel like they got their money worth and Apple gets paid again. If those same people wanted to swap parts out they wouldn’t have bought an Apple product.
That seems like a reasonable number. Let’s assume it’s correct. To reach that in say, three years, you would have to completely write the entire contents of an SSD every day (1000 days equals about 3 years). That is not representative of real world use.
For most people, the SSD will outlive the computer.
The problem with EVERY manufacturer is that a consumers view of a problem is totally different to that of a manufacturer's view of a problem. EVERY manufacturer should have something that is called 'In field failure', hence the word 'should'. In field failure means a device/product that has failed out in the field (field being bought by the consumer and now in the hands of the consumer). At every stage of production and usage, the manufacturer will monitor failure rates, this being pre-production, mass production and In field failures and each stage will have a defined fail rate value which cannot be exceed because if it does it then means the manufacturer has to halt what it is doing and figure out why the failure rate it so high. Therefore, with regards to IFF (In Field Failures), the manufacturer will have set a value at how many failures there can be out in the field before the manufacturer considers it a problem which usually results in a product recall or a product repair program.
Now with regards to what Louis is talking about, Apple will have set a value for the amount of power fault failures and if the value is reached then Apple will investigate. If the IFF value is not reached then Apple will (as other manufacturers do) just view the problem as a possible one off faulty part and replace the faulty motherboard because whilst it is expected that every part made is done so to perfection, it is near on impossible for parts manufacturers to make sure every part they make is 100% perfect. In Apple's case, there will be the odd failure here and there of the nand chip due to what they would perceive as a fault in the chips manufacture because as I said, a parts manufacturer can not guarantee that EVERY part they make is going to be 100% perfect. So, unless the IFF value gets hit, Apple would not consider nand chip dying as a problem, just an inconvenience.
Now with regards to what Louis is talking about, Apple will have set a value for the amount of power fault failures and if the value is reached then Apple will investigate. If the IFF value is not reached then Apple will (as other manufacturers do) just view the problem as a possible one off faulty part and replace the faulty motherboard because whilst it is expected that every part made is done so to perfection, it is near on impossible for parts manufacturers to make sure every part they make is 100% perfect. In Apple's case, there will be the odd failure here and there of the nand chip due to what they would perceive as a fault in the chips manufacture because as I said, a parts manufacturer can not guarantee that EVERY part they make is going to be 100% perfect. So, unless the IFF value gets hit, Apple would not consider nand chip dying as a problem, just an inconvenience.
The SSD failing is not the issue, a board-level component is, rendering the data inaccessible. If it was separate it could be popped into an external enclosure and backed up, just like the 2015 Macs.
Yes, but that doesn't remove the fact that there may be data on the drive that you need access which may not be backed up. I get cloud based backups, but I'm talking about average consumers. Do you really think a twenty-something year old working all night on his thesis, and the logic board craps out will have a backup?
I get the value of the backup, but its a sad move to justify an anti-consumer move and support apple (and others) who seem to want to make these these disposable products
There's many advantages to the consumer in having replaceable components, but there are so many people here that feel such discussion is an attack against apple and they defend apple to the bitter end. I don't mean just this thread, but in general when these topic arise. I was hesitant to post a counter view simply because there would be members making excuses and justifying apple's move.
Why do Americans pronounce Soldered as "sar-dud" rather than "Soul-derr-d"? They literally miss out the entire middle part of the word.
The same reason British omit the T in many words
I'm confident Apple informally guarantees the SSD to outlast the logic board. Or should I say SoC nowadays?
The same reason British omit the T in many words
Only certain regions of Britain do that. The standard pronunciation always includes the T.
What i dont like is that even in PC laptops they solder the RAM and SSDs now! The RAM doesnt have to be soldered to the board like in a SoC like M1/M2, they are x86! So, cleary there is no reason or benefit (soldered ssd and ram doesnt make the laptop any bigger really or faster) to soldering the ram and ssd than more profit for the manufacturer...NOT helping the customers.
SoC. One part for everything. The space that used to be taken up by the logic board is now for cooling.
What's the difference? If the logic board fails you need it replaced. If the storage fails, you need to replace the entire logic board
There isn't a difference! If the device gets water damaged or some other component on the board fails (meaning no power/inability to turn on the computer), you cannot retrieve your data. It is simply unfair and predatory to design something that cannot be recovered after the fact. I have seen so many customers lose their data at my job because of bad backup practises. The real reason they do this, is so people can't upgrade the storage themselves.
I think profit is the real reason. A SoC is cheaper to build so Apple's profits increase after R&D costs are paid for.
You're both right. Apple makes money on sales, not upgrades and so they're pushing the narrative that its better to buy then fix or upgrade.
New account created JUST to post this YouTube video? Hmmmm…
Searching the name brought up this.
“https://rossmanngroup.com/”
I would actually EXPECT that someone who makes money via repairs would prefer that companies make their systems more repairable. Rather than, you know, see that the business is trending down and get into another line of business.
Not a conflict of interest AT ALL.
Searching the name brought up this.
“https://rossmanngroup.com/”
I would actually EXPECT that someone who makes money via repairs would prefer that companies make their systems more repairable. Rather than, you know, see that the business is trending down and get into another line of business.
Not a conflict of interest AT ALL.
Rossmann's entire schtick is to sell outrage and hyperbole to an undiscerning audience of mostly young men for YouTube engagement. He skirts the line between a YouTube reactionary and a self-help huckster and it's very successful.
Time Machine has been built into the system since 2007 and can do hourly, daily, weekly or monthly backups automatically.
Time Machine has been built into the system since 2007 and can do hourly, daily, weekly or monthly backups automatically.
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New account created JUST to post this YouTube video? Hmmmm…
Searching the name brought up this.
“https://rossmanngroup.com/”
I would actually EXPECT that someone who makes money via repairs would prefer that companies make their systems more repairable. Rather than, you know, see that the business is trending down and get into another line of business.
Not a conflict of interest AT ALL.
You might be right, but it doesn't change the fact that Apple has made it impossible to replace the SSD. Or RAM. Or anything on the SoC.