Low Power G5 Coming Soon?

[mai]

Also, if you'd been paying any attention to what people have been saying, the 8641 cores won't have a frontside bus, thus eliminating that potential slowdown. Just to be fair to both sides, I'd also like to point out that the AntaresMP and AntaresSP 970 cores are supposedly going to have 1MB of L2 cache per processor, as are the 8641 and 8641D.

oh yes, i did pay attention: i were talking about a "possible" processor for the next powerbook revision/generation (in the headline) next jannuary:
that means maybe the MPC7448 as the g4 or the PPC970FX as the g5 (and no 3 ghz, 1mb l2 cache SP or MP)

In a laptop, "just the power consumptuion" is an enormous consideration that defines the entire system. Dismissing something like that completely misses the entire point of portable computing.

and yes mr. teacher, i were talking about the difference between g4 and g5 in power consumption and not if its the point, thank u for your attention

 

[thatwendigo]

Are you also saying that we shouldn't expect a significant upgrade to the PowerBook line any time in the near future? Because it also seems that there are many things to overcome with the use of a G5 also.

I am.

Here are my predictions, should anything change soon:

PowerBook 12" - 1.5ghz 7448 (200mhz bus), 256MB PC2700 SODIMM, 60GB UltraATA, nVidia GeForce Go 5200 64MB, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth - $1,499 Combo and $1,699 SuperDrive
PowerBook 15" - 1.66ghz 7448 (200mhz bus), 256MB PC2700 SODIMM, 60GB UltraATA, ATI Radeon 9700 Mobile 64MB, Combo Drive, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth - $1,899
PowerBook 15" - 1.8ghz 7448 (200mhz bus), 512MB PC2700 SODIMM, 80GB UltraATA, ATI Radeon 9700 Mobile 64MB, SuperDrive, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth - $2,399
PowerBook 17" - 1.8ghz 7448 (200mhz bus), 512MB PC2700 SODIMM, 80GB UltraATA, ATI Radeon 9700 Mobile 128MB, SuperDrive, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth - $2,699


Then, sometime between WWDC and November of next year, what I think the best path would be:

iBook 12" - 1.6ghz 8641S, 512MB DDR2-500, 40GB SATA 5400RPM, nVidia Geforce Go 6400 64MB, Combo Drive, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth - $999
iBook 14" - 1.8ghz 8641S, 512MB DDR2-500, 60GB SATA 5400RPM, nVidia Geforce Go 6400 64MB, 4x SuperDrive, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth - $1,399

PowerBook 12" - 1.6ghz 8641D, 512MB DDR2-667, 60GB SATA 7200RPM, ATI Radeon x600-M 64MB, 8x SuperDrive, Airport Extreme 108, Bluetooth - $1,599
PowerBook 15" - 1.8ghz 8641D, 512MB DDR2-667, 80GB SATA 7200RPM, ATI Radeon x800-M 64MB (BTO for 128), 8x SuperDrive, Airport Extreme 108, Bluetooth - $2,199
PowerBook - 1.8ghz 8641D, 1GB DDR2-667, 100GB SATA 7200RPM, ATI Radeon x800-M 128MB, 8x SuperDrive, Airport Extreme 108, Bluetooth - $2,799

There are a number of factors to consider in these choices, but my reasoning is pretty easy to follow. The Freescale cores are far cooler than even the 970FX, as are DDR2 over conventional DDR, 7200RPM drives over traditional laptop drives (especially with increased throughput from SATA meaning less access time and more time parked), ATI making cooler chipsets than nVidia (they'd still get more unit sales from iBooks than PowerBooks, as a mollifying measure), and existing laptops can currently use a dual-channel 802.11g transmission to increase their speed by transmitting on one and receiving on the other, hence my inclusion of the "Airport Extreme 108." This could easily be replaced if 802.15.3 or one of the other wireless standards comes to market before then.

Perhaps the least plausible is the drop in prices across the PowerBook line, but I think this might be reasonable by then. The components Apple is currently using are on their way out of volume production, being replaced by a newer generation. Their per-unit prices could be significantly lower if a complete retool of the system is made to take advantage of emerging technology and a new processor that will be pushed until its successor is ready.

 

[~Shard~]

Are you also saying that we shouldn't expect a significant upgrade to the PowerBook line any time in the near future? Because it also seems that there are many things to overcome with the use of a G5 also.

If by "significant" you mean dual-core G4 or G5, then no - not in the near future (next ~3 months.)

 

[~Shard~]

Here are my predictions, should anything change soon:

<snip>

I could go along with that. Still though, "significant upgrades" will not be happening until WWDC or later, as I see it. The earliest we will hear anything about an overhauled PowerBook will be spring, then by the time it's formally announced, released, actually ships, and consumers actually have it in their hands, you're looking at half a year in the future for sure, if not later....

 

[maya]

Well all this waiting is making me sick. What are we going to get with the PowerBook:

G4 = same old branding name.

G4.5 = It could happen

G5 = I will be overjoyed

maybe Apple and IBM are keeping hush about all this, and just releasing trickles of information due to some contract arranged by Apple.

What ever we will get in Jan 05, in a portable case I will be taking notes since I need a portable really soon in the next 6 months or less.

Now bring on that 8 gigs or ram already

 

[thatwendigo]

Now bring on that 8 gigs or ram already

You're out of your mind, to be frank.

Kingston ValueRAM PC2700 1GB SO-DIMM - $310

Planning on paying $2400 for your RAM, on top of the PowerBook, even if there were eight slots in the machine to plug it into? I have an eMac with a lot more potential internal volume than a PowerBook and it would be hard to fit that many slots into the chassis.

 

[maya]

You're out of your mind, to be frank.

Kingston ValueRAM PC2700 1GB SO-DIMM - $310

Planning on paying $2400 for your RAM, on top of the PowerBook, even if there were eight slots in the machine to plug it into? I have an eMac with a lot more potential internal volume than a PowerBook and it would be hard to fit that many slots into the chassis.

That was a joke hun. noticed the -->

the imac g5 even with 2 Gig of ram will never use its G5 64-bit chip to the fullest its 6 Gigs short

ah marketing its all in the marketing

 

[wrldwzrd89]

That was a joke hun. noticed the -->

the imac g5 even with 2 Gig of ram will never use its G5 64-bit chip to the fullest its 6 Gigs short

ah marketing its all in the marketing

There are 2 GB RAM chips out there, but they're about 2.33 times as expensive as the 1 GB chips. For example, if a 1 GB RAM chip costs $300, a 2 GB chip will set you back $700 (300 x 2.33 = 699, which is close enough to 700 for me). If PowerBooks supported these chips (which they can't since they're too tall), they'd still max out at 4 GB of RAM.

 

[jared_kipe]

Do we think the new version will be in both the powermac and imac? Cooler is more important in both, but maybe speed is slightly more useful in powermac.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

PowerBook - 1.8ghz 8641D, 1GB DDR2-667, 100GB SATA 7200RPM, ATI Radeon x800-M 128MB, 8x SuperDrive, Airport Extreme 108, Bluetooth - $2,799

The Freescale cores are far cooler than even the 970FX

I'm not so sure about that. As I mentioned in my previous post the 15-25 watts power consumption is for the 1.5 GHz version. There is currently no information available (or maybe you could give us a link if i'm wrong) that gives us any prediction on the power consumption of a possible 1.8 GHz MPC8641D, but if you scale it linearly than it would take 30 watts at 1.8 GHz. But in reality it likely won't scale linearly, so it is probably going to use more power than even that. Also most people thought before the introduction of the Powermac G5 rev B's that the 970FX would not run that hot because it is fabed at 90nm. Now we all know that this isn't true, and that the G5 in its current state can't be used in a laptop. From what we know now, I don't see how you could be so sure that the MPC8641D will do so much better at the 90nm process.

 

[Rincewind42]

I'm not so sure about that. As I mentioned in my previous post the 15-25 watts power consumption is for the 1.5 GHz version. There is currently no information available (or maybe you could give us a link if i'm wrong) that gives us any prediction on the power consumption of a possible 1.8 GHz MPC8641D, but if you scale it linearly than it would take 30 watts at 1.8 GHz. But in reality it likely won't scale linearly, so it is probably going to use more power than even that. Also most people thought before the introduction of the Powermac G5 rev B's that the 970FX would not run that hot because it is fabed at 90nm. Now we all know that this isn't true, and that the G5 in its current state can't be used in a laptop. From what we know now, I don't see how you could be so sure that the MPC8641D will do so much better at the 90nm process.

Generally for small frequency increases, you can scale power usage linearly (because you probably won't need to increase the core voltage). But for large frequency increases you generally need to increase core voltage and you get a quadratic increase in power consumption.

 

[Mr Maui]

I think I'll just go consult the iTarot cards (recently released) and the iCrystal Ball (a bit older but still functioning) ... and get back to everyone on what is "really" going to be happening.

 

[thatwendigo]

I'm not so sure about that. As I mentioned in my previous post the 15-25 watts power consumption is for the 1.5 GHz version. There is currently no information available (or maybe you could give us a link if i'm wrong) that gives us any prediction on the power consumption of a possible 1.8 GHz MPC8641D, but if you scale it linearly than it would take 30 watts at 1.8 GHz.

I can't give you an exact, hard link, but there's at least anecdotal evidence to back my claim at this point. For one thing, Freescale has been in the embedded and low-power market and doing things that IBM's not been able to do - like keeping power consumption under 20 watts. The MPC7448 will be running approximately 10 watts as a discrete part (some claim that it's only at 1.4ghz that this is true, but there's no proof of that, either, and I maintain that they're misreading the releveant PDF), and the current MPC7447A is a modified MPC7455 that they managed to cut core voltage and core temperature on. As I recall, the MPC7455 ran at 1.85v and displaced a maximum of 50 watts at 1ghz, but the MPC7447A runs at 1.1v and displaces a maximum of 30 watts at 1.42ghz. Notice that it's higher clock, lower voltage, and also lower heat without even adding a die shrink to the mixture, since all of the 74xx cores after a certain point are 130nm.

However, even if the dual-core ran at 30 watts, it would be a superior choice to a single-core that runs at the same temperature. Cramming a 1.8ghz single core 970 that will need all kinds of support chips (causing more heat) into a laptop isn't any more sensible than using a dual-core chip that won't need nearly as complicated a tape-out for the motherboard. There's also that whole multithreading thing, what with OS X and most of Apple, Adobe, and the other profressional programming houses taking advantage of SMP...

Also most people thought before the introduction of the Powermac G5 rev B's that the 970FX would not run that hot because it is fabed at 90nm. Now we all know that this isn't true, and that the G5 in its current state can't be used in a laptop.

Actually, I never thought that moving to 90nm would decrease the heat enough to put it into a laptop, or at least not once I realized just how kludgy the processor was. For quite a while, I was advocating waiting until the Power5 derivatives could be used, since they're supposedly coming from the ground-up and could possibly offer a mobile variant. Since they're nowhere in sight and Freescale's offered this lovely little parcel of joy, I think it's the obvious and best choice at the moment.

From what we know now, I don't see how you could be so sure that the MPC8641D will do so much better at the 90nm process.

From what we know now, I don't see how anyone who understand processors or systems could advocate the 970 in a portable, period. Without a miracle, it's not fit for portable computing.

 

[sjl]

Without a miracle, it's not fit for portable computing.

I know! We need to strap one of those miraculous Mother Mary Cheese On Toast things to the back of the G5! Then we'll have the whole thing running so cool, we could replace our fridges! Hell, they wouldn't even draw any current! It's amazing! Why didn't Apple think of this before?!

 

[wdlove]

If by "significant" you mean dual-core G4 or G5, then no - not in the near future (next ~3 months.)

That if just what I thought, thank you Shard. Maybe at WWDC. Now to see what happens with the G5 next.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

As I recall, the MPC7455 ran at 1.85v and displaced a maximum of 50 watts at 1ghz, but the MPC7447A runs at 1.1v and displaces a maximum of 30 watts at 1.42ghz. Notice that it's higher clock, lower voltage, and also lower heat without even adding a die shrink to the mixture, since all of the 74xx cores after a certain point are 130nm.

Yes that's right, however what I was trying to say, is that the power/heat efficiency of the 90nm process is worse, not better than the 130 nm process of the current 74xx series. So if the same amount of watts (30) is used for the MPC8641D at the 90nm, there might be more of a cooling problem than with the current MPC7447A at the same power-rating.

This is best illustrated by the 2 GHz 970 at 130nm using approximately 50 watts and the 2.5 GHz 970FX at the 90nm process using approximately the same. As the machine on my desk shows, the 2.5GHz chips are hard to cool even with the liquid cooling, resulting in lots of fan-noise if the machine is pushed, while the 2 GHz 970 could do with ordinary fans, and run more quietly.

I think it has to do something with the concentration of power in the smaller space, that makes it harder to cool. It's a bit like using the same amount of power to heat up a soldering iron or a electric blanket. If you use 30 watts for the soldering iron, its probably going to be quite hot, burning your fingers if you would touch the tip, while the blanket is not even going be slightly warm yet. Now this example is somewhat extreme, but something similar (at a much smaller scale of course ) will be true when you compare the power-rating and heat production of the 130nm and 90nm process.

Now, I'm not saying that it is entirely impossible that the Freescale 90mn process is somewhat more efficient, but looking at Motorola's track-record with the G4 developments I'm not that convinced, although I do agree with you that they might be somewhat more experienced with low-power chips than IBM. But the 90nm process is new for them as well. Also other chip manufactures like Intel are having major issues with their 90nm process.

From what we know now, I don't see how anyone who understand processors or systems could advocate the 970 in a portable, period. Without a miracle, it's not fit for portable computing.

I agree. However I never said that the current 970FX would be the right or even a possible choice for the next powerbook.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how successful Freescale will be, and what Apple's choice will be for the next Powerbook.

I think that they might indeed use the MPC7448 or the MPC8641 single core, but I remain sceptic about the MPC8641D, unless Apple finds a new way to cool these chips in the small space that the Powerbook offers.

However, if your right, it could indeed be a great machine with a 1.8 GHz MPC8641D.

 

[~Shard~]

That if just what I thought, thank you Shard. Maybe at WWDC. Now to see what happens with the G5 next.

I could definitely see an announcement before WWDC, but WWDC may be around the time one of those solutions actually ships (G5/dual-core G4). Mind you, Intel has publicly announced its dual-core plans, set for release next year as well, so we'll have to see how IBM compares and competes...

 

[maya]

That if just what I thought, thank you Shard. Maybe at WWDC. Now to see what happens with the G5 next.

what next?

DDR2 for RAM
SATA for HDD
PCI Express for Graphic Cards
1 MB L2 cache for chip
16X DVD and Dual-Layer Optical
NVIDIA SLI for even faster dual Graphic Cards

that would pretty much do it for now.

 

[pocket525]

That if just what I thought, thank you Shard. Maybe at WWDC. Now to see what happens with the G5 next.

Am I missing something? I am a newbie so be kind.

According to macworld:
G5 imac 1.6 GHz got a speed mark rating of 150
G4 Powerbook 1.5 GHz got a speed mark rating of 136

That performance increase seems to just be directly proportional to the increase in clock speed, not the fact that one is 64bit vs 32bit:
1.6/1.5 ~ 1.07, 150/136 ~ 1.10. Especially when you look at two G4 powerbooks

G4 Powerbook 1.5 GHz 136
G4 Powerbook 1.33 GHz 123
1.5/1.33 ~ 1.13, 136/123 ~ 1.10

From this it stands to reason that a G4 1.6 Ghz would be close to performance vs. a G5 1.6 GHz.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

Am I missing something? I am a newbie so be kind.

According to macworld:
G5 imac 1.6 GHz got a speed mark rating of 150
G4 Powerbook 1.5 GHz got a speed mark rating of 136

That performance increase seems to just be directly proportional to the increase in clock speed, not the fact that one is 64bit vs 32bit:
1.6/1.5 ~ 1.07, 150/136 ~ 1.10. Especially when you look at two G4 powerbooks

G4 Powerbook 1.5 GHz 136
G4 Powerbook 1.33 GHz 123
1.5/1.33 ~ 1.13, 136/123 ~ 1.10

From this it stands to reason that a G4 1.6 Ghz would be close to performance vs. a G5 1.6 GHz.

Look at the speed mark rating for the PowerMac G5 1.6 GHz and see if that changes your conclusions at all - that's all I'd suggest. Remember that the iMac G5 is somewhat hobbled compared to the PowerMac G5.

 

[JRM]

MY IDEAS

With the wait for this next generation Powerbook now being stretched for such a long time i suggest some radical improvements will be seen when released in January, low power G5 seems the go in my mind. I am writing this on my 1GHZ Titanium in my mind the greatest laptop seen yet. It was introduced with a 64mb Graphics and DVD-R drive unheard of or atleast very rare for the time. Such large improvements such as the the 8mb GPU to the eventual 64mb GPU that the 1GHZ Titanium saw also will be evident in the release of the G5 PB in Jan. It would seem that with the new architecture of the G5 in a PB would see the opportunity to intergrate DDR2 and PCI X graphics

Therefore my Predictions for the San Francisco in Jan are as follows

Powerbooks
-13"Widescreen 1.8GHZ G5 512mb DDR2 60Gig 5400rpm 128mb PCIX X600
(Superdrive and Combo Drive Models) Max Ram 2GB (450mhz FSB)
Combo $1699 SD $1899

-15"Widescreen 2.0GHZ G5 1GB DDR2 80Gig 5400rpm 128mb PCIX X800
(Only Superdrive) (100Gb option) Max Ram 4GB (500mhz FSB)
SD $2499

-17"Widescreen 2.0GHZ G5 1GB DDR2 100Gig 5400rpm 128mb PCIX X800 (Only Superdrive) Max Ram 4GB (500mhz FSB)(BTO 6800DLL (don't ask me how))
SD $2799

Power Macs
SP 2.0GHZ 512mb DDR2 80GB 128mb PCIX X600 $1699
DP 2.0GHZ 512mb DDR2 160GB 128mb PCIX X800 $2199
DP 2.5GHZ 1GIG DDR 2 160GB 256mb PCIX X800 $2699
DP 3.0GHZ 1GIG DDR 2 250GB 256mb PCIX 6800GT $3199
(ALL 16X DUAL LAYER DVDRW)
(EMACS WILL BE UPDATED PRIOR TO JAN)

GPU's on Offer will be
-128mb X600
-128mb X800
-256mb X800
-256mb 6800 GT DLL
-256mb 6800 Ultra DLL

Price Cuts (Displays)
20" $999 Save $300
23" $1599 Save $400
30" $2799 Save $500

MAYBE DREAMING, MAYBE SMOKED TOO MUCH OF THAT STUFF YOU GAVE ME - But all of what I have said is actually feasible. Cheers from Down under

(EDIT) : If they introduced a line up like this, with the support of the iPod Apple would be in a state of Windows kick ass, who could resist such an awesome line up?

 

[thatwendigo]

MAYBE DREAMING, MAYBE SMOKED TOO MUCH OF THAT STUFF YOU GAVE ME - But all of what I have said is actually feasible. Cheers from Down under

I'm not sure which one is the truth, but you've got to be either dreaming or on something. Here's why...

1) The 970FX is far hotter than a G4 at similar clockspeeds, and therefore not even remotely as good a choice for a portable. The 1.8ghz part dissipates roughly the same heat as a 4 year old MPC7455 that was used in the desktop towers and doesn't even come close to the power savings of the current MPC7447A. Meanwhile, the brand-new MPC7448 runs at 1.8ghz and dissipates only 10 watts, and that says nothing of the more advanced 8641 core.

2) Using DDR2 or PCI-Express (which is very, VERY different from PCIX) would require a completely new system controller that would increase the cost of the overall design. While changing the RAM format would likely provide heat and power savings, that would easily be offset by the processor. Also, there's no way that Apple will go to an all-ATI lineup across all of their machines, especially not with the recent willingness of nVidia to provide some of their top-end cores. Unless you're thinking that they'd somehow manage to cram extra RAM slots in, you can forget about their being a maximum of 4GB any time soon.

3) The x600M is a worse performer than the 9700M, unless there's been some kind of tomfoolery with the naming schemes agains. Generally, the x600 is roughly on par with the previous generations upper-middle level GPUs, and the 9700M is a top-end card that's only very recently been supplanted by the 9800M.

4) There are no 16X dual-layer DVD-RW drives, as all dual-layer parts are roughly 2-3X.

 

[JRM]

I know there's no 16X Dual Layer

I just mean 16X DVD-R and 2.4 Dual Layer, but I probably should have stated that. Also I mean that they have DDR2 Ram and PCI Express Graphics. Sorry for any confusion but the likelyhood of these tech specs occuring dismisses any importance any way.

 

[cb911]

sounds like a sweet lineup JRM, but i'd have to agree that the chances of seeing that happen are slim.

oh well... maybe i'll just come down there and have a smoke with you.

 

[mai]

feed

it would have been time now in oktober for a regular update of the pb g4 - maybe from 1.33 to 1.5 and 1.5 to 1.6 - neeee, didn't;

now it takes time 'til at least jannuary 05? that's almost half the regular product cycle more

but the mpc7448 is not expected to sample until h1 2005! (freescale itself said that, should they release much earlier?, mhh...)

ok, that's clear, the're developing something, but not a simple lousy g4 (7447) speedbump

maybe i am naive, i guess apple and ibm did find a way to put the g5 into the pb;
maybe with new cooling materials, passive and aktive, maybe a little thicker than 1 inch, maybe with a more air conducting case, maybe curbing the fsb and cpu, maybe with more powerful batteries, ...

i don't know, we'll see.....