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If SSD’s burn out with 2 years of casual use Apple is going to have to extend a program

I’m not going to look at stats just see how this shakes out
-base m1 air
apple should just introduce the terms of their extended programs during product launches at this point, since there is one for every product anyway.

if you want soldered RAM whatever, i get it. the ssd should always be accessible to be changed. its crazy in 2021 that a dead ssd/hd could render an entire machine useless.
 
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Or how about: “If SSDs burn out within 2 years of casual use, I won’t be buying another Apple product unless they make them user replaceable”.

In a world of perfectly competitive products sure

but lots of consumer laptops aren’t built to last, and the experience using their OS leaves much to be desired
 
that could be it? would it reboot with the lid closed?

Yes probably kernel panic/crash/reboot. I have Touch ID enabled so can tell when it reboots during sleep since it prompts for password instead of accepting fingerprint when I open lid/wake it up.
 
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apple should just introduce the terms of their extended programs during product launches at this point, since there is one for every product anyway.

if you want soldered RAM whatever, i get it. the ssd should always be accessible to be changed. its crazy in 2021 that a dead ssd/hd could render an entire machine useless.
It doesn’t render the entire machine useless though does it, just the logic board.
 


Over the past week, some M1 Mac users have been reporting alarming SSD health readings, suggesting that these devices are writing extraordinary amounts of data to their drives (via iMore).

m1-mac-mini.jpg

Across Twitter and the MacRumors forums, users are reporting that M1 Macs are experiencing extremely high drive writes over a short space of time. In what appear to be the most severe cases, M1 Macs are said to be consuming as much as 10 to 13 percent of the maximum warrantable total bytes written (TBW) value of its SSD.

Flash memory on solid-state drives, such as those used in Macs, can only be written to a certain number of times before they become unstable. Software ensures that load is spread evenly across the drive's memory cells, but there is a point when the drive has been written to so many times that it can no longer reliably hold data. So while SSD wear is normal, expected behavior, drives should not be exhausting their ability to hold data as quickly as some M1 Macs seem to be.

One user showed that their M1 Mac had already consumed one percent of its SSD after just two months, while another M1 Mac with a 2TB SSD had already consumed three percent. The total data units written for these machines is running into many terabytes, when they would normally be expected to be considerably lower.



The user with three percent usage speculated that, were his machine a 256GB model, it could have used as much as 30 percent to date, and have reached maximum TBW in around two years. An SSD can continue to function once its TBW limit has been reached, but there is no knowing how long it will last past this point.

It is not known how widespread the TBW issue is, but reports of strange SSD behavior are also now emerging from users with Intel-based Macs, suggesting that the TBW issue may not be exclusive to M1 Macs.

The reported wear is so extreme on some M1 Macs that it suggests the problem is due to a bug rather than the expected behavior of the M1 chip, but it is unclear if the problem pertains to erroneous readings or macOS genuinely writing vast amounts of data to the drive. Drive monitoring tools are sometimes unreliable and it is likely that the issue can be fixed via an update to macOS Big Sur.

Article Link: M1 Mac Users Report Excessive SSD Wear
Trouble in paradise 😂
 
But we kept hearing that the M1's ram utilization isn't the same as Intel. I've seen people justify 8GB on the M1 is the same as 16 and even 32GB on intel ;)
That never made sense to me.

If anything, ARM processors use MORE memory for code. Intel instructions can be quite small, it all depends on the instruction..... whereas ARM are all the same size, and many operations use more than one instruction to get the equivalent job done.
 
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3-weeks after launch day M1 Mini with 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD: (had to wait for the 16GB ones to ship!)

Code:
SMART/Health Information (NVMe Log 0x02)
Critical Warning:                   0x00
Temperature:                        38 Celsius
Available Spare:                    100%
Available Spare Threshold:          99%
Percentage Used:                    0%
Data Units Read:                    109,560,966 [56.0 TB]
Data Units Written:                 40,077,917 [20.5 TB]
Host Read Commands:                 3,010,138,630
Host Write Commands:                299,429,682
Controller Busy Time:               0
Power Cycles:                       99
Power On Hours:                     562
Unsafe Shutdowns:                   20
Media and Data Integrity Errors:    0
Error Information Log Entries:      0

For comparison, launch day 16in MBP with 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD: (I use an external SSD a LOT on my MBP, way more than my internal drive)
Code:
SMART/Health Information (NVMe Log 0x02)
Critical Warning:                   0x00
Temperature:                        25 Celsius
Available Spare:                    100%
Available Spare Threshold:          99%
Percentage Used:                    0%
Data Units Read:                    90,182,304 [46.1 TB]
Data Units Written:                 70,803,287 [36.2 TB]
Host Read Commands:                 4,062,143,503
Host Write Commands:                1,297,133,342
Controller Busy Time:               0
Power Cycles:                       250
Power On Hours:                     1,488
Unsafe Shutdowns:                   61
Media and Data Integrity Errors:    0
Error Information Log Entries:      0
 
I used DriveDX to get an insight as to how my M1 Mac mini (256 GB / 8 GB RAM) may have been affected.

It's not something I've ever paid attention to before, so I don't know what level of read/writes are acceptable. Having said that, I've had my M1 Mac mini since November (about a week after they came out) and it's been on pretty much constantly ever since (though some days I don't use it, it just sits there and is set to never go to sleep - for file sharing reasons).

I use it moderately throughout the day and occasionally for some high-level digital art and Mac gaming (think Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Sims 4).

Mine seems relatively low compared to the second screenshot in the article, though I don't know what to make of it so if anyone is more clued up on this than I am, feel free to make observations:

Screenshot 2021-02-23 at 5.15.57pm.png
 
In a nutshell, to avoid Apple's engineering for obsolescence pay the premium for the higher 16GB DRAM and larger capacity SSD since endurance increases with capacity. Worst case is 8GB and 256GB SSD which is the configuration being pushed the most.
 
If people are having their Photos.app Library on the internal drive I'm guessing that could be part of the problem.

I have my Photos Library on an external mechanical hard drive that's relatively noisy when it reads and writes data, and I can tell you the System Agents com.apple.photoanalysisid and com.apple.photolibraryd are causing a lot of hard drive activity for me on a regular basis.

Of course this isn't something you'd notice when the library is on a SSD which is totally quiet when reads and writes takes place.

Not sure if it matters that I have iCloud Photos disabled, but I do.
it's mainly reading your library to analyse content (find faces and scenes).

My Photos Library is on my SSD on both my MacBook Air M1 and 2018 Mac mini (intel)... and health is excellent on both... 100% on MBA and 98% on Mac mini.
 
recommending 8GB for most of the users is of course a good advice if the performance is sufficient (and it is) ..... or do you think the reason to get a larger memory is the SSD wear ? future proofing is nice and all , but it depends on your cadence of swapping machines , a lot of the time its a bad decision.
Sorry I have to disagree. I think the advice for RAM hasn't changed since the 80's. Don't get the bare minimum unless you have to. Bump it up 1) for future proofing 2) Yes to prevent swap (because it a) hurts performance, less so today, and b) wear, more of a problem today).

Obviously the caveat would be if you know your specific use and it isn't going to change in your projected ownership, then get the spec you determined you need. For most users, bump it up if you can afford it.
 
Needless to say....this is not a news story the new Apple designed Macs need.
 
It doesn’t render the entire machine useless though does it, just the logic board.
ehh semantics but technically correct. i imagine for most a logic-board replacement just ends up being a new machine. the cost of a new logic-board (if you can easily find one depending on the age of the machine) plus installation (assuming you're out of warranty) is likely pushing the cost of something new.

either way, a dead ssd shouldn't require a new logic-board either. it's the only thing that should be changeable.
 
It strikes me as odd that this is all theoretical. People aren't actually having their SSD dying yet; they're complaining that their SSDs look like they might die. The facts about SSD write cycles say that some SSDs go a lot further than you think they should. I saw (I think ars) did a test years ago on various SSDs. Some of them went literally 100x longer than the specs say they should. (literally petabytes--to the point where they gave up trying to kill it)

Maybe Apple internally tested and found these SSDs can write 50petabytes on average. While this should be validated to make sure these writes are not erroneous; I really doubt Apple hasn't thought of this and selected really resilient nand chips.
 
Just out of curiosity I ran this tool on my machine, a 2017 MBP with 16GB RAM and 500GB SSD. It tells me that after all these years of using for work (I would put usage at above average), it shows percent used: 1%

If (big IF) these tools are really and indication of drive health, this is very concerning. I haven't upgraded to Big Sur yet, but would be very concerned if this is a software bug in the new OS.
 
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“M1 macs use less RAM, they are more efficient”
“On M1 macs, 8GB seem like 16 on Intel machines”


Yeah, sure. I never bought this statement. M1 memory management isn’t magic, it just have an awesome performance when using the swap file. It uses a huge amount of SSD to swap, I experience it with my M1 MacBook Air, specially when connected to an external monitor.

It trades the need of RAM memory for SSD wear on the long run.
I’d like to be mistaken on this assumption, because I appreciate the lifespan of my machine, but...

EDIT: Maybe it is not so closely related to the amount of RAM, as 16GB models are experiencing this issue as well. We’ll have to wait and see.
First thing that came to my mind too. I sincerely doubt that this is a “bug” that can be fixed with an OS tweak. Rather, it is a feature of a hardware design decision that affects people whose workflow saturates available RAM limitation of the current crop of M1 Macs and that the OS compensates for by regularly using SSD to compensate.
 
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Just tried DriveDX. It states its written 3.6 TB read 5.7TB. Ive had the MBP M1 16GB/1TB since Nov. I assume this is normal?
 
It seems more reasonable to me that either the results are incorrect, or we're underestimating the life of these SSDs.
 
Is it just me or did no one read this part...."It is not known how widespread the TBW issue is, but reports of strange SSD behavior are also now emerging from users with Intel-based Macs, suggesting that the TBW issue may not be exclusive to ‌M1‌ Macs."

So maybe hold off on bashing the M1 until we know for sure.
Folks who made a connection between the M1 and the swap behavior has no understanding of whats going on , they will be vocal however.
Sorry I have to disagree. I think the advice for RAM hasn't changed since the 80's. Don't get the bare minimum unless you have to. Bump it up 1) for future proofing 2) Yes to prevent swap (because it a) hurts performance, less so today, and b) wear, more of a problem today).

Obviously the caveat would be if you know your specific use and it isn't going to change in your projected ownership, then get the spec you determined you need. For most users, bump it up if you can afford it.
Future proofing is marketing speak , if the baseline for the M1 machines came in at 16GB , would you go for 32 ? Just because 16 is the bare minimum they sell?
The benchmarks showed little impact on performance running typical workloads.
Wear is a myth for 99.9% of users , never in my company or personal life I’ve encountered wear issues.
The only reason to bump RAM if your workloads doesn’t need it , is if you have spare money and you believe you will delve into more memory intensive work down the immediate road , I rather go with what I need now , and worst case scenario sell and upgrade if I missed calculated badly.

we can do some deep dive tech talk if you like about memory and how companies do things differently ( I do that for a living ) , FYI appreciate your replies , they make a lot of sense ( although I view it differently then you ) and are much better then the mod replying with more emojis to my post ...
 
This issue wouldn't affect Intel Macs too, would it? While I have an understanding of technology, but when it comes to the components of a board, I'm clueless.
That's a hard question to answer. It's yes & no depending on your usage. If you have 4/8GB RAM but do things that you should have more RAM with, then technically it could happen also on Intel because of Virtual Ram and swapping. But we don't know the lifespan of Apple SSD's either tho.
This is another reason why I'll be sticking with my 2020(2018) Mac mini i5 with 32GB RAM that I can upgrade more if I need to. I still personally think Apple will be back with intel in a few years or less and they will have both ARM & Intel machines. Maybe not? But we will see what the future holds. Maybe just on the Pro machines (for people that need BootCamp still?)...
 
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