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M1 Macs - first machines where the OS/CPU/machine made by same mfgr?

steve217

steve217

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Is the M1 Mac the first machine released where the same manfacturer makes the OS, the CPU and the machine?

At least since the IBM Thinkpad 850 - PowerPC, OS/2 and Thinkpad frame. And I don't believe that product ever made it to market. At a list price of $13k, small wonder.
 
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steve217 said:
Is the M1 Mac the first machine released where the same manfacturer makes the OS, the CPU and the machine?

At least since the IBM Thinkpad 850 - PowerPC, OS/2 and Thinkpad frame. And I don't believe that product ever made it to market. At a list price of $13k, small wonder.
Click to expand...

No.

First, Apple doesn’t make the CPU. They only designed it.

Second, the Commodore 64, just as an example, used a CPU designed *and* manufactured by Commodore (MOS Technology was owned by Commodore, and later changed its name to Commodore Semiconductor Group). And, of course, the OS was also made by Commodore.

I’m sure there are other examples.
 
steve217 said:
Is the M1 Mac the first machine released where the same manfacturer makes the OS, the CPU and the machine?

At least since the IBM Thinkpad 850 - PowerPC, OS/2 and Thinkpad frame. And I don't believe that product ever made it to market. At a list price of $13k, small wonder.
Click to expand...
Definitely not, there are LOTS of examples of that. IBM midrange and mainframe machines are good examples of that and they go back into the 60's and 70's. Probably before that too. Windows was actually the true anomaly where you got generic CPU's. But even Microsoft "made" their own CPU like Apple does for their Surface Pro X machines. (They don't really make them, they just designed them, and both took the design work of the ARM as a starting point!)
 
steve217 said:
Is the M1 Mac the first machine released where the same manfacturer makes the OS, the CPU and the machine?
Click to expand...

(Let's assume we're talking about designed rather than actually manufactured when it comes to CPUs, given that Apple doesn't actually produce the M1)

The original ARM CPU was designed by Acorn Computer in the UK (it used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine) and was first used ~1987 in the Acorn Archimedes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes) which also had Acorn's own OS. So they didn't just design the chip - they wrote the instruction set... and, yes, it thrashed the then-current models of x86 just as comprehensively - possibly more so - as the M1 thrashes Intel today. Of course, it couldn't run DOS/Windows so nobody cared...

...if you want to stretch a point and unpick the complex genealogy of who-bought-who, the Raspberry Pi probably counts as an indirect descendant (esp. if you run RISC-OS on it).

Then there's Sun Microsystems who designed the SPARC processor for use in their workstations - OK, they were running a Unix variant rather than a totally original OS ...but you could say the same about MacOS (and Sun were major contributors to Unix development).

For that matter, Apple were part of the Apple/IBM/Motorola consortium who developed the PowerPC CPU, used in Macs from the mid-1990s through to 2006.

...so, along with the IBM, DEC, Commodore examples I think the answer is a pretty definite "No".
 
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bobcomer said:
The Microvax I worked on in collage fit that, it had its own form of UNIX though. Almost all the early DEC machines were all DEC. The first machine I ever worked on was a DEC PDP-8e in '73 4K of RAM!
Click to expand...

Ah yes, good stuff. Unfortunately I never had the pleasure to work on DEC machines, I only saw the PDP-8 and successors in museums. Must have been a cool experience!
 
bobcomer said:
Definitely not, there are LOTS of examples of that. IBM midrange and mainframe machines are good examples of that and they go back into the 60's and 70's. Probably before that too. Windows was actually the true anomaly where you got generic CPU's. But even Microsoft "made" their own CPU like Apple does for their Surface Pro X machines. (They don't really make them, they just designed them, and both took the design work of the ARM as a starting point!)
Click to expand...
That's a good point about the IBM machines. I mean, I was a midrange programmer for years.

I could have been more precise about the premise of my question, "has there ever been a mfgr who built the CPU, chassis and OS that you could buy off a shelf"... but I didn't want to sound too pedantic.

I came across that Thinkpad in an article and it made me wonder who had ever had such successful control over a final product. Especially a mainstream, consumer computer product.
 
ManuCH said:
Ah yes, good stuff. Unfortunately I never had the pleasure to work on DEC machines, I only saw the PDP-8 and successors in museums. Must have been a cool experience!
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You're making me feel old. :) It was cool, we've come a long way!
 
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FWIW, I can remember the days when internal components for desktop systems were all made domestically. I bought some RAM from I think it was Newer Technologies, and it was actually made in the southwest some place (California probably). So, since nearly every darn thing is made in China and has been for the last, like, 2 and a half decades, I doubt any computer maker actually "makes" anything, unless it's very specialized stuff and they have a good reason for building it here in the U.S. (or England, or Germany, or wherever).
 
ManuCH said:
If I'm not mistaken, the DEC MicroVax computers also had OS, CPU and machine all made by the same company.
Click to expand...

The regular VAX/VMS systems (1977) predated the MicroVAX (1983). But those wouldn't be considered personal systems.

You had the DEC Professional (PDP-11 based personal computer) in 1982.

There was the MicroPDP-11/23 that was around 1982 or maybe a bit earlier.

Then you had the DEC PDP-8 launched in 1965.
 
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I have an HP-67 on my desk and I think that I bought it in 1977. Wikipedia states that the CPU is proprietary and HP has owned fabs in the past.
 
steve217 said:
That's a good point about the IBM machines. I mean, I was a midrange programmer for years.
Click to expand...
That's still part of what i do. :) Though it's quite a bit different hardware-wise now -- the programming can be the same as always.
 
cmaier said:
No.

First, Apple doesn’t make the CPU. They only designed it.
Click to expand...
I mean, by this standard Apple doesn’t really ‘make’ anything. They have an R&D team that prototypes and shakes things down but they don’t own manufacturing plants anymore. All manufacturing is outsourced to third party companies. Apple does still do some final assembly on higher end machines, but even then it’s assembled with parts from outside vendors contracted by Apple. When your device is sent to the depot it’s not even Apple doing the repair, it’s a third party company.

Additionally, the ARM instruction set was not designed by Apple nor TSMC and BSD UNIX was not developed by Apple, so at what point is something considered ‘made’ by Apple?
 
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iamMacPerson said:
I mean, by this standard Apple doesn’t really ‘make’ anything. They have an R&D team that prototypes and shakes things down but they don’t own manufacturing plants anymore. All manufacturing is outsourced to third party companies. Apple does still do some final assembly on higher end machines, but even then it’s assembled with parts from outside vendors contracted by Apple. When your device is sent to the depot it’s not even Apple doing the repair, it’s a third party company.

Additionally, the ARM instruction set was not designed by Apple nor TSMC and BSD UNIX was not developed by Apple, so at what point is something considered ‘made’ by Apple?
Click to expand...

The reason I raised the distinction is because if you want to talk about chips *designed* by the same company that makes the computer, the list of companies that have done that before is much larger than the list of companies that assemble their own computers and fab their own chips. I mean, I worked at one of them (Sun). Others would include Silicon Graphics, etc.
 
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cmaier said:
The reason I raised the distinction is because if you want to talk about chips *designed* by the same company that makes the computer, the list of companies that have done that before is much larger than the list of companies that assemble their own computers and fab their own chips. I mean, I worked at one of them (Sun). Others would include Silicon Graphics, etc.
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I didn’t know Sun fabricated it’s own chips. I forgot about SGI honestly, but you’re right. No one is really integrated on a level like those companies were, but that’s in the professional sector. The last time the consumer space saw that level of integration was probably in the 8-bit era, C64 and the like.
 
iamMacPerson said:
I didn’t know Sun fabricated it’s own chips. I forgot about SGI honestly, but you’re right. No one is really integrated on a level like those companies were, but that’s in the professional sector. The last time the consumer space saw that level of integration was probably in the 8-bit era, C64 and the like.
Click to expand...
To be clear, we designed our chips at Sun, but had them fabricated by other companies. HP had PA-RISC systems, DEC had Alpha (and Vax, and PDP), SGI had MIPS, IBM had its RS-6000s, etc. Incredibly common in the workstation space. And as you note, in the 8 (and even in the 16-bit) era, it was reasonably common. It was really Windows that destroyed the model in the consumer space, at least until now.
 
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