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The NPU 'upgrade' is a bit disingenuous. The M4 is 38 TOPS at FP8 precision, the M3's 18 TOPS advertised benchmark is at FP16. Realistically the M3 gets around 30 TOPS at FP8 but Apple doesnt publish their own numbers at FP8 for it... so suddenly the comparison is a lot less impressive.

To be honest android manufacturers were caught doing similar number play. Playing devil's advocate some though advancements in ML have made higher precession less important for inferencing, I just wish they gave more apples to apples benchmarks.
 
While my M1 probably isn't going anywhere I'd appreciate seeing the comparison as well.

I thought so too. Then woke up this morning and lifted the lid on M1 MBP and no power. Tried everything, called Apple support and their advice didn’t work so genius appointment to be booked.
 
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The NPU 'upgrade' is a bit disingenuous. The M4 is 38 TOPS at FP8 precision, the M3's 18 TOPS advertised benchmark is at FP16. Realistically the M3 gets around 30 TOPS at FP8 but Apple doesnt publish their own numbers at FP8 for it... so suddenly the comparison is a lot less impressive.
To be honest android manufacturers were caught doing similar number play. Playing devil's advocate some though advancements in ML have made higher precession less important for inferencing, I just wish they gave more apples to apples benchmarks.
Does it? I was under impression the reason Apple switched to Int8 benchmarking is because Apple Intelligence quantization allowed models to run at lower precision and that newer devices had special Int8 support. I was not under impression that older NPUs saw this same speedup when using lower precision.
 


Apple today announced the first of its M4 Mac models, but how much better really is the M4 chip over its predecessor?

M3-vs-M4-Feature.jpg

The M4 chip debuted in the iPad Pro earlier this year, promising around 20% faster performance than the M3 chip in both single and multi-core tasks. All of the key differences between the two chip generations are listed below:

M3 Chip (2023–2024)M4 Chip (2024)
Made using TSMC's 3nm technology (N3)Made using TSMC's enhanced 3nm technology (N3E)
Based on iPhone 15 Pro's A17 Pro chip (2023)Based on iPhone 16's A18 chip (2024)
25 billion transistors28 billion transistors (+12%)
8-core CPU
(4 performance + 4 efficiency cores)
Up to 10 CPU cores
(4 performance + 6 efficiency cores)
4.05 GHz CPU clock speed4.3 GHz CPU clock speed
16-core Neural Engine, 18 trillion operations per second16-core Neural Engine, 38 trillion operations per second (+111%)
LPDDR5 memoryLPDDR5X memory
100 GB/s memory bandwidth120 GB/s memory bandwidth (+20%)
Dedicated display engine
GPU with standard power efficiencyMore power-efficient GPU: Maintains performance with significantly less power


Most of these upgrades, with the exception of core counts and memory bandwidth, apply to the entire selection M3 and M4 chips. Using Geekbench benchmarks, these are the approximate performance gains you can expect from the M4 chip:

Benchmark TypeM3 Chip PerformanceM4 Chip Performance (Improvement)
Single-core CPU3,0883,864 (+25.1%)
Multi-core CPU11,71115,288 (+30.5%)
Metal GPU47,46657,603 (+21.4%)


While the M4 chip features notable enhancements over the M3, such as increased CPU and GPU performance and improved efficiency, the practical differences for users upgrading from an M3 system may not be as radical as the specifications suggest. The M3 chip already delivers impressive performance and efficiency, making it a formidable contender in its own right.

The 25.1% improvement in single-core performance and 30.5% in multi-core performance highlight technical advancements, but for many users, especially those already equipped with M3-based devices, the everyday experience will likely not feel dramatically different. Tasks that benefit from single-core speeds, like launching apps and light productivity work, will be snappier, but for those accustomed to the M3's capabilities, this difference may not significantly impact their workflow.

Similarly, the 21.4% increase in GPU performance means better graphics rendering and gaming capabilities, yet users who have enjoyed the M3's performance may find these enhancements less noticeable in routine tasks. The improvements in gaming and creative applications will benefit users who are heavily engaged in graphics-intensive work, but those using the M3 might not feel compelled to upgrade solely for these reasons.

The 111% boost in the Neural Engine is a standout figure, emphasizing the chip's impressive artificial intelligence and advanced machine learning capabilities. However, for many users, especially with less demanding requirements, the difference might not justify the upgrade, especially as both the M3 and M4 chip support Apple Intelligence. That being said, the M4 chip's significantly improved Neural Engine makes it more likely to support and effectively run new Apple Intelligence and AI features as they emerge over the years.

In terms of memory bandwidth, the 20% increase allows for faster data transfer, which is beneficial for data-heavy applications. Yet, again, for users already using the M3, this improvement may not translate into a dramatic change in performance.

Ultimately, while the M4 chip certainly pushes the boundaries of what is possible in Apple's silicon, it may not represent a radical shift for those already using the M3. Instead, the M4 is likely aimed at users looking to upgrade from M1 chips or older Intel systems, where the jump in performance is far more pronounced.

For existing M3 users, the decision to upgrade may hinge more on specific needs and applications rather than a broad expectation of enhanced performance. For example, M3 Max chip users who push their system to the limit with highly intensive tasks may have good reason to upgrade. Likewise, if your current M3 or M3 Pro system seems to be insufficient for your workflow, you could consider upgrading to an "M4 Pro" or "M4 Max" device when they're available, but these upgrade paths will be unusual.

Article Link: M3 vs. M4 Chip Buyer's Guide: How Much Better Really Is M4?

More of the same M3 vs M4 wish someone would post spec's on the M4 Pro and M4 Max those are the config's I want to see. Then have to wait a few weeks for testing with application results, benchmark test are useless in general.
 
Based on iPhone 16's A18 chip (2024)
Ridiculous. The M4 came out in early May, months before the A18 (Sep/Oct). They *may* be the same cores (probably) and are certainly very close. But more true to say the A18 is based on the M4.

4.3 GHz CPU clock speed
Source? I did not see any mention of speed on Apple's web site, checking the newsroom and the tech specs page for the iMac.

More power-efficient GPU: Maintains performance with significantly less power
Isn't it also faster (20% per core)? Not sure about that. And IIRC Apple was claiming double the RT perf.

In terms of memory bandwidth, the 20% increase allows for faster data transfer, which is beneficial for data-heavy applications.
Now that's just nonsense. I mean, it literally has no semantic value. What is "data-heavy" supposed to mean? The most data-heavy application would be a database. The faster RAM has no value there (except for smaller in-memory DBs, which are therefore less "data-heavy").

What this is good for is the GPU (games, graphics/video work, etc.), and code that hits the CPU and GPU simultaneously. In fact, the CPU cores can't make use of all that bandwidth anyway, so it should make approximately no difference (latency may be slightly better or worse) for normal code - though it's possible M4 cores have better bandwidth to the SLC/memory than the M3. But that has nothing to do with the 120GB/s max memory throughput.
 
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Ridiculous. The M4 came out in early May, months before the A18 (Sep/Oct). They *may* be the same cores (probably) and are certainly very close. But more true to say the A18 is based on the M4.


Source? I did not see any mention of speed on Apple's web site, checking the newsroom and the tech specs page for the iMac.


Isn't it also faster (20% per core)? Not sure about that. And IIRC Apple was claiming double the RT perf.


Now that's just nonsense. I mean, it literally has no semantic value. What is "data-heavy" supposed to mean? The most data-heavy application would be a database. The faster RAM has no value there (except for smaller in-memory DBs, which are therefore less "data-heavy").

What this is good for is the GPU (games, graphics/video work, etc.), and code that hits the CPU and GPU simultaneously. In fact, the CPU cores can't make use of all that bandwidth anyway, so it should make approximately no difference (latency may be slightly better or worse) for normal code - though it's possible M4 cores have better bandwidth to the SLC/memory than the M3. But that has nothing to do with the 120GB/s max memory throughput.
Has Apple ever disclosed GHZ speeds for any M series chips?

 
Does it? I was under impression the reason Apple switched to Int8 benchmarking is because Apple Intelligence quantization allowed models to run at lower precision and that newer devices had special Int8 support. I was not under impression that older NPUs saw this same speedup when using lower precision.

It's a bit of everything. Int8 means you can have a smaller model, and using integer operations vs floating point operations can be faster and more efficient since they're not as computationally expensive as floating point. The tradeoff is as you stated, lower precision, which isn't as big a deal for inference.
 
I would also be interested in that comparison, even though my M1 Max MBP isn't going anywhere, as it's been perfect.
Exactly. Most of us cannot work as fast as our computers now. Apple will try to slow down macOS to fix that issue. I recommend M1 cowboys to stick to Monterey and Ventura for as long as possible. Monterey on M1 has been good to me, after a bad spell (Catalina – only tested, Big Sur – run in production).
 
Unless your work is really pushing the limits of the processor your Mac has got already, there’s little point in upgrading from one generation to the next. Instead for most users and customers that Apple targets, the upgrade would be either from Intel Macs (that are still useful) and M1 Macs (maybe). If you’re on M2 or higher there is just little reason.

That’s why comparisons are more relevant to much older hardware. Not the previous version.
 
[Answering my request for a source for MR's claim of 4.3GHz speed on the M4 iMac]
Has Apple ever disclosed GHZ speeds for any M series chips?

The link you posted states 4.41GHz, and it depends on GB getting that info right, but in any case is not dispositive since it's a test run on the base M4 MBP. The iMac has a different power profile and does not run on battery, so it's entirely plausible that it might be clocked a bit higher. It might also be clocked slower, which is what MR has claimed. But so far I have no actual data, which is why I asked for MR's source.
 
You don't buy a new computer before the technology is 4x as fast as your own. Words from my father, who was a lecturer in mainframe computing as an engineer.
Totally agree with this.I'd say use it until it cannot do the tasks for your main job (if you use the computer for work). This whole upgrade every couple of years cycle is absolutely insane.
 
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Super happy with my M3 Max MacBook Pro - I don't push it to the limit, save for the occasional delve into Final Cut Pro, so it's really an investment in durability over time for me. Really cool to see the M series of chips advancing at the rate that they are - by the time my M3 is feeling long in the tooth, the actual and perceived upgrade in speed and efficiency should be incredible. I admit I was skeptical when Apple first decided to roll its own chips, especially after the G5 to Intel transition paid off as handsomely as it did, but so far the few remaining Intel-based apps I have on my laptop have no perceivable performance degradation whatsoever. This is also the first laptop where I've not needed to have any installation of Windows available for specific tools and systems that have finally migrated to Apple silicon, which is a bonus.
I'm on M2 Pro MBP and have yet to hear the fan go off. It's a beast of a machine. I guess these M machines will work for a long while for people before the need to upgrade. I'd say the Intel Mac people should perhaps get on the M chips by now, but M1 is no slouch and does not need upgrading yet.
 
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25% and 35% CPU YoY IPC Uplift and meanwhile AMD fans are losing their minds because the 9800X3D brings a 10% IPC Uplift.

Can Apple just Start mass production PC Processors ? Buyers can pick between.

intel
amd
apple
 
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Please do a comparison of M1 vs M4. There's where we can see how ripping these new chips are between when M series chips first came out and where they are at today. Would love to see just how far they've come in terms of performance.

YOU CAN DO IT!
It's already done. Look up Geekbench 6 scores for M1. Now what I want, is M4 Pro scores!
 
More of the same M3 vs M4 wish someone would post spec's on the M4 Pro and M4 Max those are the config's I want to see. Then have to wait a few weeks for testing with application results, benchmark test are useless in general.
These will def be released with the new Macbook Pro
 
Totally agree with this.I'd say use it until it cannot do the tasks for your main job (if you use the computer for work). This whole upgrade every couple of years cycle is absolutely insane.
Absolutely right. M4 is twice that fast like my MBP 16" I9. I just get that feeling, that with every new OS that mbp is getting slower...
 
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25% and 35% CPU YoY IPC Uplift and meanwhile AMD fans are losing their minds because the 9800X3D brings a 10% IPC Uplift.

Can Apple just Start mass production PC Processors ? Buyers can pick between.

intel
amd
apple
Very good idea. But it is a different architecture. Needs mainboards etc as well. But Windows etc bootable - no problem. It will not be a Hackintosh - Apple iPC? 😂. On the other Hand - they will not do it anyway.
 
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