M4 Mac Mini to Become Apple's Smallest Ever Computer With Complete Redesign

[Halopend]

What real advantage is there to it being smaller? You still need monitor, keyboard etc.

Pretty simple. Many people have a desktop area already (with multiple monitors even) and many offices have workstations to plug into. If you aren’t going to use it outside those spaces, this can be a cheaper alternative to a laptop that’s actually more portable as well.

Yes, there’s caveats (not much use if travelling, could complicate meetings if moving to a different space) but it’s not unreasonable for an iPad to make up the difference in those cases.

 

[straydoug]

Will the pro support 4 external monitors rather than the current 3? The pro MacBooks support 4 and I was surprised when the M2 pro mini only supported 3.

 

[SactoGuy18]

I think in the end, the M4 Mac mini will look like a Apple TV box but maybe about 35-40% larger so it could accommodate a small fan cooling system for the SoC.

 

[SJ Burnett]

I’m sure that was the very top complaint about the Mac mini … its size. ?!?

Honestly couldn’t make it up.

I would have thought more people would care about a) ports & connectivity and b) timely updates to mini line , not stagnation like what seems to keep happening to both iMac and mini line.

But no … it’s to reduce its size.

Same old Apple obsession: "Gotta be lighter! Gotta be thinner! Gotta be smaller!"

They don't give people what they want, they brainwash them with silly "designer" words like "elegant" and "minimal" so they can make people leer over what they want to sell them.

Always form over function. If it runs hotter and has a shorter life, so what? Apple hate people keeping machines over 5 years old anyway. That's "tragic", according to Tim Cook. (I'm typing this on a Mac Mini 3,1 dating from 2009 running OsX 10.9.5. It was a replacement for the one under my TV set. That one's even older. Both are still doing useful work. Eat your liver, TC.)

And when problems arise, those problems will always be OURS: never Apple's. The keyboard that people were using wrong.
The phone they were holding wrong. The laptop screen that gathered marks if you
closed it.

Sorry: I needed a rant ...

 

[turbineseaplane]

Always form over function. If it runs hotter and has a shorter life, so what? Apple hate people keeping machines over 5 years old anyway. That's "tragic", according to Tim Cook.

...and on the next slide, let's talk about the "Apple commitment to the environment!"

 

[Heat_Fan89]

Same old Apple obsession: "Gotta be lighter! Gotta be thinner! Gotta be smaller!"

They don't give people what they want, they brainwash them with silly "designer" words like "elegant" and "minimal" so they can make people leer over what they want to sell them.

Always form over function. If it runs hotter and has a shorter life, so what? Apple hate people keeping machines over 5 years old anyway. That's "tragic", according to Tim Cook. (I'm typing this on a Mac Mini 3,1 dating from 2009 running OsX 10.9.5. It was a replacement for the one under my TV set. That one's even older. Both are still doing useful work. Eat your liver, TC.)

And when problems arise, those problems will always be OURS: never Apple's. The keyboard that people were using wrong.
The phone they were holding wrong. The laptop screen that gathered marks if you
closed it.

Sorry: I needed a rant ...

Okay but do they? I own a 2012 Mini, that gets hot so I have to use Mac Fan Control to up the idle fan speed. I own a 2018 i5 Mini, same thing as it gets hot. I have a 2022 M2 Mini and that one never even gets warm. So lets see what the chassis looks like and get an indication on the thermals before we pass judgement.

As I type this on my M2 Mini, the fan is running at 1710 RPM (that's low) and my avg CPU Temp is 38c.

For comparison my 2012 Mini has its fan running at 3800 rpm and its avg CPU temp is 44c. The 2018 i5 Mini has it's fan running at 3200 rpm and the avg temp is 41c.

 

[Chuckeee]

Okay but do they? I own a 2012 Mini, that gets hot so I have to use Mac Fan Control to up the idle fan speed. I own a 2018 i5 Mini, same thing as it gets hot. I have a 2022 M2 Mini and that one never even gets warm. So lets see what the chassis looks like and get an indication on the thermals before we pass judgement.

As I type this on my M2 Mini, the fan is running at 1710 RPM (that's low) and my avg CPU Temp is 38c.

For comparison my 2012 Mini has its fan running at 3800 rpm and its avg CPU temp is 44c. The 2018 i5 Mini has it's fan running at 3200 rpm and the avg temp is 41c.

Lighter can be interpreted 2 ways:
1. Weighs less
2. Used to start ignition

🤣

 

[bzgnyc2]

Okay but do they? I own a 2012 Mini, that gets hot so I have to use Mac Fan Control to up the idle fan speed. I own a 2018 i5 Mini, same thing as it gets hot. I have a 2022 M2 Mini and that one never even gets warm. So lets see what the chassis looks like and get an indication on the thermals before we pass judgement.

As I type this on my M2 Mini, the fan is running at 1710 RPM (that's low) and my avg CPU Temp is 38c.

For comparison my 2012 Mini has its fan running at 3800 rpm and its avg CPU temp is 44c. The 2018 i5 Mini has it's fan running at 3200 rpm and the avg temp is 41c.

Interesting, my 2018 i3 Mini almost never increases it's fan beyond 1700 automatically even if I wish it would sometimes (to avoid thermal throttling which confuses efforts to performance tune code). I've taken to using Macs Fan Control to force it to high fan when running heavy loads. Under light load (e.g. local music playback) and fans automatic, it runs the fans at 1700rpm while temperatures are 35-37c.

 

[Neodym]

Okay but do they? I own a 2012 Mini, that gets hot so I have to use Mac Fan Control to up the idle fan speed. I own a 2018 i5 Mini, same thing as it gets hot. I have a 2022 M2 Mini and that one never even gets warm. So lets see what the chassis looks like and get an indication on the thermals before we pass judgement.

As I type this on my M2 Mini, the fan is running at 1710 RPM (that's low) and my avg CPU Temp is 38c.

For comparison my 2012 Mini has its fan running at 3800 rpm and its avg CPU temp is 44c. The 2018 i5 Mini has it's fan running at 3200 rpm and the avg temp is 41c.

I don't subscribe to the view that 44c would be anywhere close to being "hot". That's a perfectly average temperature and far from being dangerous for the internal components.

When we would be talking 64c or more, I could understand that cautious personalities might want to have a higher fan rpm to bring temperatures down. Personally, I'm fine as long as temps are below 75c.

But the mentioned temperatures in any Mac mini are perfectly acceptable imho and don't require manual intervention via fan control.

 

[drrich2]

I don't subscribe to the view that 44c would be anywhere close to being "hot". That's a perfectly average temperature and far from being dangerous for the internal components.

While 'hot' is generally to be considered less desirable than 'warm,' the question comes up...do we have any objective evidence as to what temp.s, whether intermittent and temporary of sustained over time, tend to make computers or specific components fail earlier?

For example, if a thousand people bought the new Mac Mini, at what internal temp.s occurring intermittently during moderate to heavy use do you think there'd be a substantial drop in the % making it to still in service at the 8-year mark?

Is all speculation, or is there data?

 

[chucker23n1]

While 'hot' is generally to be considered less desirable than 'warm,' the question comes up...do we have any objective evidence as to what temp.s, whether intermittent and temporary of sustained over time, tend to make computers or specific components fail earlier?

For example, if a thousand people bought the new Mac Mini, at what internal temp.s occurring intermittently during moderate to heavy use do you think there'd be a substantial drop in the % making it to still in service at the 8-year mark?

Is all speculation, or is there data?

CPUs shut off before they reach critical temperatures. More modern ones will also throttle.

Intel laptop CPUs usually have 100C as their cut-off. 40 is nothing for a CPU.

 

[IvyKing]

For example, if a thousand people bought the new Mac Mini, at what internal temp.s occurring intermittently during moderate to heavy use do you think there'd be a substantial drop in the % making it to still in service at the 8-year mark?

I would say 120 to 130C would be where you would see problems showing up in a few years. With the small geometries in the M series processors, it wouldn't take much to cause the P type and N type dopants to diffuse to where they were not supposed to be. Analog circuitry with a much larger process pitch can be rated for Tj's of 175C, but will degrade within a few hundred hours at 200 to 220C.

It's getting hard to find embedded microcomputers that will handle an 85C ambient.

 

[deevey]

While 'hot' is generally to be considered less desirable than 'warm,' the question comes up...do we have any objective evidence as to what temp.s, whether intermittent and temporary of sustained over time, tend to make computers or specific components fail earlier?

For example, if a thousand people bought the new Mac Mini, at what internal temp.s occurring intermittently during moderate to heavy use do you think there'd be a substantial drop in the % making it to still in service at the 8-year mark?

Is all speculation, or is there data?

I haven't been able to get my M1 Air to go past 58ºC regardless of what I throw at it. I run alot of pretty heavy apps simultaneously and thats with a 30º+ ambient temperature.

I don't think an Apple TV size M4 with even the smallest of fans would have any long term issues.

 

[Neodym]

I would say 120 to 130C would be where you would see problems showing up in a few years. With the small geometries in the M series processors, it wouldn't take much to cause the P type and N type dopants to diffuse to where they were not supposed to be. Analog circuitry with a much larger process pitch can be rated for Tj's of 175C, but will degrade within a few hundred hours at 200 to 220C.

It's getting hard to find embedded microcomputers that will handle an 85C ambient.

I seem to remember that capacitors of old had a thermal limit of 85°C (with high-quality ones going up to 105°C, newer ones even 125°C). I was under the impression that those limits basically stayed the same over the years.

 

[IvyKing]

I seem to remember that capacitors of old had a thermal limit of 85°C (with high-quality ones going up to 105°C, newer ones even 125°C). I was under the impression that those limits basically stayed the same over the years.

The limits for capacitors have pretty much stayed the same, but the upper limit for processors seem to be coming down. The 85C limit for capacitors most likely refers to the electrolytics (both Al and Tantalum), as ceramics can tolerate higher temperatures though Y5U's might be questionable.

 

[deevey]

The limits for capacitors have pretty much stayed the same, but the upper limit for processors seem to be coming down. The 85C limit for capacitors most likely refers to the electrolytics (both Al and Tantalum), as ceramics can tolerate higher temperatures though Y5U's might be questionable.

I seem to remember that capacitors of old had a thermal limit of 85°C (with high-quality ones going up to 105°C, newer ones even 125°C). I was under the impression that those limits basically stayed the same over the years.

M4 max temp appears to be the same as most any processor, 100ºC, but it will throttle the device to keep temps down far before it gets near to those levels.

Apple M4 (10-Core): benchmarks and specs | NR

Performance tests in benchmarks and full specifications of Apple M4 (10-Core) with 10 cores, 4500 MHz.

nanoreview.net

 

[artifex]

M4 max temp appears to be the same as most any processor, 100ºC, but it will throttle the device to keep temps down far before it gets near to those levels.

Apple M4 (10-Core): benchmarks and specs | NR

Performance tests in benchmarks and full specifications of Apple M4 (10-Core) with 10 cores, 4500 MHz.

nanoreview.net

If M4 Minis have fans (and they probably will, at least at the upper end), I'm always going to wonder how much of that is due to heat from leaving the power supply inside the case A ps brick would just dissipate to ambient. Might save energy. And colo hosts, when they make the rack changeover, could just build in DC support, and save a bunch more. If they don't have fans, I'm going to wonder how much throttling would have been unnecessary with a ps brick.

 

[Chuckeee]

If M4 Minis have fans (and they probably will, at least at the upper end), I'm always going to wonder how much of that is due to heat from leaving the power supply inside the case A ps brick would just dissipate to ambient. Might save energy. And colo hosts, when they make the rack changeover, could just build in DC support, and save a bunch more. If they don't have fans, I'm going to wonder how much throttling would have been unnecessary with a ps brick.

I am in favor an external power brick for repairability. I have had 2 Mac die as a result of PSU failure. Having an external power brick makes repairs much simpler. And especially for a desktop, what does it matter if there is power brick sitting somewhere.

 

[IvyKing]

If M4 Minis have fans (and they probably will, at least at the upper end), I'm always going to wonder how much of that is due to heat from leaving the power supply inside the case A ps brick would just dissipate to ambient. Might save energy. And colo hosts, when they make the rack changeover, could just build in DC support, and save a bunch more. If they don't have fans, I'm going to wonder how much throttling would have been unnecessary with a ps brick.

I would be shocked if the Mini's power supply was less than 90% efficient. Unless the Mini is putting out far more power on the USB ports, it's a safe bet that most of the heat is coming from components other than the power supply.

 

[deevey]

I am in favor an external power brick for repairability. I have had 2 Mac die as a result of PSU failure. Having an external power brick makes repairs much simpler. And especially for a desktop, what does it matter if there is power brick sitting somewhere.

IMHO if they don't go with an internal PSU, thats size cheating. I, for one 100% really do not want yet another power brick lying around the floor. I was a little pissed when they went external with the iMac - much easier to damage (something I always consider as we have cats).

An external Power brick is not any better for repairability either. Replaceability, sure. It'd be a sealed and expensive PSU like the iMac and you throw away the old one.

If they built the PSU in a similar fashion to the ATV4k it's pretty easy for a tech to replace the internal one or repair/replace components if they went bad.

 

[10anta]

What I actually want from a Mac mini:
- Monitor mountable
- Powered over USB-C
- USB A and SD card ports

What we’ll actually get:
- Smaller
- Thermal throttling

 

[turbineseaplane]

What I actually want from a Mac mini:
- Monitor mountable
- Powered over USB-C
- USB A and SD card ports

What we’ll actually get:
- Smaller
- Thermal throttling

So you'd like a small powerful flexible adaptable Mac ... not an iPad in a NUC box?

 

[10anta]

So you'd like a small powerful flexible adaptable Mac ... not an iPad in a NUC box?

For home use I’m still very happy with my base M1 Mac mini

It’s already hidden away under the desk in a drawer, but I’d consider upgrading for something more minimal

 

[artifex]

What I actually want from a Mac mini:
- Monitor mountable
- Powered over USB-C
- USB A and SD card ports

What we’ll actually get:
- Smaller
- Thermal throttling

If you want to mount on a monitor, there's already third-party VESA adapters for currently-released models. I'm sure there will be some right away for whatever they announce.