Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

M4 Macs Unable to Run macOS VMs Earlier Than Ventura 13.4

anshuvorty said:
Just add yet another wrinkle to the addage or user experience where macOS isn't really a legacy OS or an OS that supports legacy usage; it isn't like Windows where the UI might be modern and pretty but still allows for decades and decades of older software to run quite nicely; on macOS, you are lucky if you can run anything older than 2-3 years...this is yet another example of that.

So, I am not really surprised at this development; Apple wants its users and its developers to constantly be on the cutting edge in terms of hardware and software. If you want Unix/Linux legacy compability, macOS isn't where you will find it, you will be better off using an Open Source Unix/Linux OS instead...
Click to expand...

I was with you until the last sentence. I still partially agree, but the hard part of Linux has always been hardware. There's nothing in this post about Linux. You can still run Linux on macOS. They have shied away from true GPL software, but you can still run and compile code made for Linux. If you really want Linux then of course just run Linux, and get a computer with hardware that's fully supported.

Arm throws another curve into this on all sides. And the 64 bit transition. It's really all about hardware at this point. If you want "legacy" support, you need "legacy" hardware. I lived through the PC era in the 90s into the mobile era to whatever era this is now. Believe me, I feel the pain. But the hardware improvements these days are good and we have largely lost the freedom war.

I hope we are all buying from System76 and donating to Debian / FSF / LibreOffice etc...
 
  • Like
  • Angry
Reactions: neomorpheus, NetMage and TechnoMonk
purush said:
I have a new M4 Mac mini. I have a macOS 10.4 Tiger VM in UTM. After having read about this problem I opened UTM and started the macOS 10.4 VM to see if it was still working. No problem at all. It booted fine, not black screen. I also have a macOS 9 VM. It also works fine. So this black screen problem must be for newer versions of macOS.
Click to expand...
That's emulation, not virtualization, so it's totally different.
 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: NetMage and dricci
Reading this gives me serious doubts that AS Macs will ever get Linux support. At least with Intel Macs once Apple cutoff a Model, you could load Linux. I have a 2012 Mini running Ubuntu with no issues. Once my 2018 Mini loses support, that will also get converted to Linux.
 
  • Disagree
  • Like
Reactions: jdb8167 and phuklok1
scrapesleon said:
yeah they all losing support next year Apple want to phase out Intel Macs as quickly as possible
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but Apple has not rushed it, they would have fulfilled their usual 6-8 years of OS updates for all but the late Intel Mac Pro by September 2025.

And I'm sure Sequoia will keep getting security and critical updates, as usual, for at least 2 more years (2027).
 
  • Like
Reactions: throAU
MacRumors said:
New M4-based Macs are reportedly unable to run virtual machines of older macOS versions prior to macOS Ventura 13.4
Click to expand...
After years of practicing planned obsolescence, I guess Apple found the courage to practice... retroactive unavailability? I don't know what the term for this would be. 🤔
 
Heat_Fan89 said:
Reading this gives me serious doubts that AS Macs will ever get Linux support. At least with Intel Macs once Apple cutoff a Model, you could load Linux. I have a 2012 Mini running Ubuntu with no issues. Once my 2018 Mini loses support, that will also get converted to Linux.
Click to expand...
I just switched my 2014 Mini from Monterey to Mint 22 over the weekend. I use it as a server. It's more than fast enough for that. Mint 22 is supported to 2029.

As for Linux on the M series, Apple is not releasing the hardware specifications, or at least not all of them. It's slowing the development of Linux quite a lot as they have to reverse engineer how the hardware really works. At the moment the battery life under Linux is well short of what MacOS provides. But work is continuing, and since the M1 is still supported in Mac OS (even if Sequoia is the end of the line for 8 GB machines there are still two years of security updates to come) there is time for the Linux crowd to get the last of the hardware figured out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Heat_Fan89
attohs said:
This is a bug in the Apple Hypervisor and will be fixed with a software update very soon. Nobody bothered to ask Parallels?
Click to expand...
Too late for my needs. I needed Parallels to run some tasks that are only available in the Window environment. I am out the $70.00 for the upgrade to version 20 of Parallels.
 
So...the problem is....you can't run old OS software on your brand new computer. Having never done that I dont understand the use case but suspect is kind of niche and the thing MacRumors has drama about but 98% of normal users wouldn't ever notice or care about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jlc1978 and asdfjkl;
So Sonoma 14.X and Ventura 13.4 are supported, but nothing before that. Got it.

But... I'm genuinely wondering : Why do people seem to make a big case out of this ? In other words, how does it limit users, or why would anyone actually use VMs for older macOS versions ? Is it really popular or is it very niche ?

The only time I used VMs in my life was 20 years ago with PearPC when I wanted to run Mac OS X on my PC.
 
PsykX said:
So Sonoma 14.X and Ventura 13.4 are supported, but nothing before that. Got it.

But... I'm genuinely wondering : Why do people seem to make a big case out of this ? In other words, how does it limit users, or why would anyone actually use VMs for older macOS versions ? Is it really popular or is it very niche ?

The only time I used VMs in my life was 20 years ago with PearPC when I wanted to run Mac OS X on my PC.
Click to expand...

If you're a developer you may want to test against multiple OS versions, and rather than maintaining a fleet of MacBooks for that, or rebooting every time you want to change OS, you can just run virtual machines.

Its also handy being able to run any OS as a virtual machine so that you can inspect it, snapshot, rollback, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fingernail
lkrupp said:
I want to install COBOL on my M4! Why can’t I, Apple? Why? The spirit of Grace Hopper is channeling me. Pleased help, Apple!
Click to expand...
You can install a 1983 COBOL Plus IDE via FreeDOS under Apple silicon. It's run by emulation but will be fast enough for most purposes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NetMage
Apple needs to reinstate redbox and allow emulation of X86 environments other than macOS apps.
Microsoft purchased Connectix years ago allowing non-virtualization computers to run Windows. I thought Apple said their CPU was powerful, it should be able to emulate the chipset.
 
JosephAW said:
Apple needs to reinstate redbox and allow emulation of X86 environments other than macOS apps.
Microsoft purchased Connectix years ago allowing non-virtualization computers to run Windows. I thought Apple said their CPU was powerful, it should be able to emulate the chipset.
Click to expand...
If you want to use x64/x86 emulation, just use UTM. Apple doesn't need to introduce any new features for that.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: JosephAW and NetMage
Carlson-online said:
I imagine this is something to do with the fact that the older OS's don't support something (aka a new instruction set) in the newer M4s. rememember this is the first chip to move to armv9, plus apples custom instructions.
Click to expand...
That's usually not a problem - easily "avoided" by not using the instruction that didn't exist.

This is something in the chip that seemingly breaks backwards compatibility.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: NetMage
Incompatibility with software designed for older versions of macOS is one of the system's biggest flaws compared to Windows. This is a major reason why the vast majority of companies, gamers, and geeks won't consider switching from Windows to macOS.
 
cjsuk said:
On Thursdays, if the planets are aligned correctly, and you stand on one hand and make a mooing noise.

Seriously I think this is a meme at this point. I get the feeling people haven't worked on any long lasting products. I've got stuff that has been in production for over 30 years...
Click to expand...
Not even close to the truth. In fact ~I can't even see the shadow cast by the truth standing next to your statement.
I'd rather have a PITA method that allows me to get my job done than no method at all.
 
Heat_Fan89 said:
Reading this gives me serious doubts that AS Macs will ever get Linux support. At least with Intel Macs once Apple cutoff a Model, you could load Linux. I have a 2012 Mini running Ubuntu with no issues. Once my 2018 Mini loses support, that will also get converted to Linux.
Click to expand...
Don't forget OpenCore boot loader, which can get newer OSes running on old hardware. I have Sequoia running on my 2012 Mac mini very successfully, no issues at all.
 
It's this kind of thing that makes me miss the Intel era. I could virtualize all kinds of Windows games on my 2016 MBP using PlayOnMac, and I had a lot of older 32 bit games that also still worked until I updated to Catalina. I might still downgrade it to 10.14 since I haven't felt like getting rid of it and it still works...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back