M4 Pro Mac mini - form over function?

[Peter_M]

Hi,


I've been waiting for the "right" next Apple desktop to come along, still using my 2018 i7 Mac Mini.

Now with M4 Pro we get 10 performance cores + 64gb RAM, that's great stuff.

However, it seems yet again Apple is overdoing the segmentation of their products. The Mac Mini is a great option for those of us, that only need a powerful CPU (vs. GPU) for stuff like Logic Pro etc.

Why is the new Mac Mini so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M4 Pro chip during sustained high CPU loads. There is a heat pipe there, but that's pretty much it.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a glorified iPad in a box for Office and Internet surfing, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Mini 30-40% larger, and it would still be small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

I'd definitely wait for the reviews on this one, for anything beyond Office work and web browsing...

 

[russell_314]

I believe there’s another article here talking about how it actually cools well. Everything has compromises so yes, I’m sure Apple compromised some cooling for the form factor. If they didn’t compromise, it would look like a Mac Pro.

I suspect this isn’t meant to replace the Mac Studio so if you’re doing some heavy duty work, you might want to wait for the M4 version of that.

 

[Steve121178]

I’d imagine Apple’s engineering team have done their homework regarding the heat dissipation.

As for form over function, I don’t think they’ve really compromised here. It’s clear the Pro chip is the limit for this product line, so as long as it doesn’t throttle due to overheating then it’s all good.

 

[Peter_M]

I believe there’s another article here talking about how it actually cools well. Everything has compromises so yes, I’m sure Apple compromised some cooling for the form factor. If they didn’t compromise, it would look like a Mac Pro.

I suspect this isn’t meant to replace the Mac Studio so if you’re doing some heavy duty work, you might want to wait for the M4 version of that.

See, this is the kind of Apple apologetics I don't get, with all respect obviously. So, if Apple had made the Mac Mini slightly larger, instead of overdoing the size reduction for the "wow-factor" during their presentation, you might as well get the Mac Pro? Seriously...

This is (most likely) Apple creating a problem that didn't need to exist. Just like with the previous MacBook Pro machines, which were so thin they become overly hot and uncomfortable to use, including the awful butterfly keyboard.

Don't get me wrong, I want it to succeed, as the Pro chip makes more sense for my audio/music work. Maybe Apple did some engineering "magic" on the new Mac Mini, but that seems unlikely given the limitations of heat transfer mechanics.

 

[haruhiko]

Uhhh how can anyone be sure it does or does not thermal throttle at this stage. I think not until real people getting real machines on 8 Nov. I won’t trust YouTube reviewers who receive review machines from Apple.

The M4 model should be fine though. The enclosure size should have no problem. M4 Pro may be pushing the limit, but it’s still not the Max or Ultra chip. So even if there is the risk of throttling… I guess it won’t be severe. But yeah if we have any doubt, wait after 8 Nov

 

[Elcuria]

Hi,


I've been waiting for the "right" next Apple desktop to come along, still using my 2018 i7 Mac Mini.

Now with M4 Pro we get 10 performance cores + 64gb RAM, that's great stuff.

However, it seems yet again Apple is overdoing the segmentation of their products. The Mac Mini is a great option for those of us, that only need a powerful CPU (vs. GPU) for stuff like Logic Pro etc.

Why is the new Mac Mini so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M4 Pro chip during sustained high CPU loads. There is a heat pipe there, but that's pretty much it.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a glorified iPad in a box for Office and Internet surfing, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Mini 30-40% larger, and it would still be small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

I'd definitely wait for the reviews on this one, for anything beyond Office work and web browsing...

You’re correct, let’s wait for the teardown, the real world testing, etc before we make claims we can’t possibly back up.

 

[russell_314]

See, this is the kind of Apple apologetics I don't get, with all respect obviously.

I don’t get people that think if you’re not critical of Apple then you’re some sort of a then you’re some sort of Apple apologist. I have my criticisms of Apple products and even the company.

So, if Apple had made the Mac Mini slightly larger, instead of overdoing the size reduction for the "wow-factor" during their presentation, you might as well get the Mac Pro? Seriously...

Yes, because even the Mac mini is a compromise. It’s not going to have the same cooling power as if they put the chip in something like a Mac studio or a Mac Pro. Hence why they still make the Mac Studio and Mac Pro. Of course with the regular M4 is probably not a compromise but when you go for the higher end Pro chips, it’s going to be.

This is (most likely) Apple creating a problem that didn't need to exist. Just like with the previous MacBook Pro machines, which were so thin they become overly hot and uncomfortable to use, including the awful butterfly keyboard.

I’ve never used the butterfly keyboard, MacBook Pro, but I’ll take your word for it because I’ve heard enough complaints. That was Jony Ive and he’s gone so that phase of Apple is over. Some people liked that, but I was not one of them.

Don't get me wrong, I want it to succeed, as the Pro chip makes more sense for my audio/music work. Maybe Apple did some engineering "magic" on the new Mac Mini, but that seems unlikely given the limitations of heat transfer mechanics.

I suspect it’s going to be fine for 99.9% of users. If you’re finding yourself to be in that .01% that needs the extra power then you would be better served by the Mac Studio. If you’re using this for some sort of professional production use, I don’t think you’re going to be the intended user. I suspect this is strictly meant for home use for the average person.

Making it smaller, isn’t about the wow factor in the presentation. Most people buying a Mac don’t watch the presentations. It’s about people wanting a smaller computer that takes up less space on their desk. People that had the iMac weren’t even happy with having a Mac mini on their desk.


Also, I think a lot of this is because of certain YouTube channels being overdramatic about CPU temperatures. Yes high temperatures will cause the CPU to throttle, but it’s never going to get to the temperature where it damages it. With that throttling, the question is how does that affect the speed? Soon we’re going to see benchmarks comparing this to the older larger version of the Mac mini and so we will have a comparison. I would be shocked if it wasn’t faster.

 

[Peter_M]

You’re correct, let’s wait for the teardown, the real world testing, etc before we make claims we can’t possibly back up.

Yes, fingers crossed. Hopefully the M4 Pro will work well in the Mac Mini.

Buying a Mac Studio would be plan B, but there's another 6 months to wait for that one. (I'm not paying full price for a product that is two generations behind the latest offerings, esp. considering how expensive it is. Also higher single core performance is preferable working with programs like Logic Pro.)

Also, I think a lot of this is because of certain YouTube channels being overdramatic about CPU temperatures. Yes high temperatures will cause the CPU to throttle, but it’s never going to get to the temperature where it damages it. With that throttling, the question is how does that affect the speed? Soon we’re going to see benchmarks comparing this to the older larger version of the Mac mini and so we will have a comparison. I would be shocked if it wasn’t faster.

If you want to keep the machine for 6-7 years or more (which is true in my case), high temperatures might negatively impact longevity by unnecessary wear and tear on the components (big temperature swings). Also with throttling, you get less performance obviously.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

A lot of speculation here. No one has reported any real world testing, so it’s safe to say we can say one way or the other.

However, given that the M4 architecture is far more power efficient than even the M2, we shouldn’t compare this directly to older Mac mini models. The cooling solutions are relative to one-another.

 

[EugW]

Why is the Mac Studio so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M2 Ultra chip during sustained high CPU loads.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a small Mac in a box, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Studio 30-40% larger, and it would still be reasonably small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

 

[antiprotest]

I’d imagine Apple’s engineering team have done their homework regarding the heat dissipation.

This is exactly what you can't assume based on some of the devices in recent years, and as recent as the iPhone 15 series. The era of "Apple knows best" has long past.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Yes, fingers crossed. Hopefully the M4 Pro will work well in the Mac Mini.

Buying a Mac Studio would be plan B, but there's another 6 months to wait for that one. (I'm not paying full price for a product that is two generations behind the latest offerings, esp. considering how expensive it is. Also higher single core performance is preferable working with programs like Logic Pro.)




If you want to keep the machine for 6-7 years or more (which is true in my case), high temperatures might negatively impact longevity by unnecessary wear and tear on the components (big temperature swings). Also with throttling, you get less performance obviously.

These aren’t Intel chips. I have been blasting my M1 Max at high loads since launch, it’s as good as new. I keep my Mac’s 8 years. 2019 MBP was an exception, throttled too much and was a space heater. Got rid of it as soon as M1 Max launched. Buy one to test it, speculating everything that can go wrong brings misery.

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

I believe there’s another article here talking about how it actually cools well. Everything has compromises so yes, I’m sure Apple compromised some cooling for the form factor. If they didn’t compromise, it would look like a Mac Pro.

I suspect this isn’t meant to replace the Mac Studio so if you’re doing some heavy duty work, you might want to wait for the M4 version of that.

Especially those still needing USB-A ports.

Yes, I know everything is going USB-C.

But if I add the cost up of switching out my USB-A gear just to have it fit into the M4 Pro mini's I/O, then the higher costs for a M4 Max Studio (basic configuration) might cost me less in total and then also provide a little more CPU/GPU power.

*Assuming Apple doesn't kill USB-A on all upcoming Macs to lower manufacturing costs (making one type of port vs. two different kinds will lower costs. Especially considering that Apple now needs USB-C components for nearly every product they make).

Which begs the question, would a (discounted, sold at retail) M1 or M2 Mac Studio or Mac Pro maybe be a better deal than these M4 Pro minis? If one doesn't want Apple Intelligence?

 

[Thirio2]

Why has no one mentioned the elephant in the room; the power button on the bottom, and worse yet, in the back? So when the Magic Mouse dies you can’t wake your machine until you turn the mouse upside down to charge it long enough to get it to work.

 

[Peter_M]

Why is the Mac Studio so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M2 Ultra chip during sustained high CPU loads.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a small Mac in a box, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Studio 30-40% larger, and it would still be reasonably small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

Really?

 

[TechnoMonk]

Why is the Mac Studio so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M2 Ultra chip during sustained high CPU loads.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a small Mac in a box, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Studio 30-40% larger, and it would still be reasonably small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

You win the internet today. I haven’t bought an Apple workstation or desktop for more than a decade. If Apple can put an M4 ultra with 256GB or 512 GB Ram in a studio, I would buy it. My AmD/Nvidia workstation can retire, which takes too much space and power. It’s amazing that studio with M2 Ultra works as good as a much larger M2 Ultra Mac Pro.

 

[Peter_M]

Especially those still needing USB-A ports.

Yes, I know everything is going USB-C.

But if I add the cost up of switching out my USB-A gear just to have it fit into the M4 Pro mini's I/O, then the higher costs for a M4 Max Studio (basic configuration) might cost me less in total and then also provide a little more CPU/GPU power.

*Assuming Apple doesn't kill USB-A on all upcoming Macs to lower manufacturing costs (making one type of port vs. two different kinds will lower costs. Especially considering that Apple now needs USB-C components for nearly every product they make).

Which begs the question, would a (discounted, sold at retail) M1 or M2 Mac Studio or Mac Pro maybe be a better deal than these M4 Pro minis? If one doesn't want Apple Intelligence?

Yeah, granted using a dongle isn't that bad with a desktop computer (though unnecessary). Depends on the usage I guess.

The M2 Mac Studio or Mac Mini are still great computeres. However, for making music in Logic Pro, having higher single core performance helps with low audio latency, which is preferable when doing keyboard parts with software instruments.

Here in Europe the prices have gotten so high now, many of us have to think long term (6-8+ years) with our Apple purchases. Buying two year old tech becomes less attractive then. Who knows, maybe Logic Pro 12 will use the Apple Intelligence features?

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

A lot of speculation here. No one has reported any real world testing, so it’s safe to say we can say one way or the other.

However, given that the M4 architecture is far more power efficient than even the M2, we shouldn’t compare this directly to older Mac mini models. The cooling solutions are relative to one-another.

Agree.

Considering how thin, powerful and active cooling free M4 iPads Pro are and still run quite cool, I wouldn't worry too much about Macs with chips that are about as powerful as those in the M4 iPads Pro that do have active cooling.

It's also worth considering that this is the most drastic redesign of Mac mini ever(?) and the first one since the moved to Apple's silicon.

I'm not saying that I know performance wouldn't be a bit better in the former, bigger chassis. But I also know that there was no need for all that empty space in there, and that many of us cannot escape the pre-Apple Silicon mindset of how computers have to meet a certain size or die from overheating.

I don't think the lack of size is Apple's engineers failing. I think it's Apple making production more efficient and flexing on the entire desktop computer market with a product that defies all the negative assumptions Apple has had to face pre Apple Silicon of its throttling and overheating, weak but pretty computers.

 

[hagjohn]

Hi,

I've been waiting for the "right" next Apple desktop to come along, still using my 2018 i7 Mac Mini.

Now with M4 Pro we get 10 performance cores + 64gb RAM, that's great stuff.

However, it seems yet again Apple is overdoing the segmentation of their products. The Mac Mini is a great option for those of us, that only need a powerful CPU (vs. GPU) for stuff like Logic Pro etc.

Why is the new Mac Mini so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M4 Pro chip during sustained high CPU loads. There is a heat pipe there, but that's pretty much it.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a glorified iPad in a box for Office and Internet surfing, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Mini 30-40% larger, and it would still be small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

I'd definitely wait for the reviews on this one, for anything beyond Office work and web browsing...

I'm waiting to see what the reviews are for the device before ordering. Like you, I'm worried about the new size and what impact that will have on cooling and throttling.

 

[Macalway]

I'm not worried. If it makes noise I'll return it. It's probably silent even under some stress, at least the base model. It doesn't support a Max, probably for this reason.

And this is coming from an Intel Nuc user who switched to a Akasa passive cooled case. The Nuc was loud, and this looks just like it!

All the Nuc clones are loud, but this is Apple.

Point here is really Apple's notebooks are silent when almost all the others make noise. Same logic applies here. Only Microsoft seems to have a grip on this, comparable to Apple, from my experience. There are others of course.

 

[G5isAlive]

Hi,


I've been waiting for the "right" next Apple desktop to come along, still using my 2018 i7 Mac Mini.

Now with M4 Pro we get 10 performance cores + 64gb RAM, that's great stuff.

However, it seems yet again Apple is overdoing the segmentation of their products. The Mac Mini is a great option for those of us, that only need a powerful CPU (vs. GPU) for stuff like Logic Pro etc.

Why is the new Mac Mini so ridiculously small? Unless Apple has pulled off some engineering marvel, there's simply no way to effectively offload the necessary heat from the M4 Pro chip during sustained high CPU loads. There is a heat pipe there, but that's pretty much it.

This will most likely end up being a very hot computer easily reaching 100+ Celsius, thus throttling the CPU, with a noisy fan ramping up and down.

I get some people want a glorified iPad in a box for Office and Internet surfing, but again Apple gets too aggressive with their design (eg. previous MacBook Pro gen). They could easily have made the new Mac Mini 30-40% larger, and it would still be small and portable, but with more beefy cooling for a silent experience, and non-throttling CPU.

I'd definitely wait for the reviews on this one, for anything beyond Office work and web browsing...

As you said to another person with a different perspective, with all respect obviously, this reads to me like another typical MacRumors comment 'Apple didn't design what I personally wanted, so clearly Apple is screwing up, when all they had to do was 'x'.' I get it, you don't want the extra cost of a Mac Studio, or maybe you just don't want to wait, but there is a sizable market that doesn't need the power of a Mac Studio, that will appreciate the more compact design (with less materials used, remember lowering the carbon footprint was also part of the design), and the low cost form factor.

People have been complaining that the mini form factor hasn't changed in a decade. Well here it is, the natural progression of the mini to separate it from the Mac Studio. You design suggestions would push it back to the Mac Studio. As for heat dissipation, people have been warning the same with the MacBook Air design that has NO fan... and yet.. the sky hasn't fallen yet. It is much cooler than the previous intel designs that did have a fan.

Your stance is aggressive and speculative. Even when the reviews come out, no doubt someone will find a situation where they can push it to a place that you will say 'see, I was right.' We have seen plenty of click bait videos like that. Thing is, they never reflect how 99.9% of users actually use the device. So I find it hard to rise up in arms and demand Apple designs us a Mac mini that is like a Mac Studio, but cheaper.

It's a good machine at a good price. Buy one and test it yourself with your work load. If it doesn't suit you, return and either wait for the studio, or try a MacBook Pro.

 

[Tago]

Especially those still needing USB-A ports.

Yes, I know everything is going USB-C.

But if I add the cost up of switching out my USB-A gear just to have it fit into the M4 Pro mini's I/O, then the higher costs for a M4 Max Studio (basic configuration) might cost me less in total and then also provide a little more CPU/GPU power.

*Assuming Apple doesn't kill USB-A on all upcoming Macs to lower manufacturing costs (making one type of port vs. two different kinds will lower costs. Especially considering that Apple now needs USB-C components for nearly every product they make).

Which begs the question, would a (discounted, sold at retail) M1 or M2 Mac Studio or Mac Pro maybe be a better deal than these M4 Pro minis? If one doesn't want Apple Intelligence?

I don`t really need the pro chip (M2), the main attraction for that one was getting rid of USB-A. I got my USB A gear as "everyone else", but I have consistently avoided hardware with USB A for years. USB C is SO overdue, and shouldn`t be present in any new gear for sale - computers, TV`s or whatever is attached to them. It`s like using T-Ford balloon tyres on a 2024 Lambo.

Those who prefers to keep their USB-A stuff will have the opportunity to keep their old machine OR getting cables covering their needs. Apple has been far far too slow abandoning both USB-A and Lightening. Should have replaced it years ago.

 

[ThailandToo]

Yes, fingers crossed. Hopefully the M4 Pro will work well in the Mac Mini.

Buying a Mac Studio would be plan B, but there's another 6 months to wait for that one. (I'm not paying full price for a product that is two generations behind the latest offerings, esp. considering how expensive it is. Also higher single core performance is preferable working with programs like Logic Pro.)




If you want to keep the machine for 6-7 years or more (which is true in my case), high temperatures might negatively impact longevity by unnecessary wear and tear on the components (big temperature swings). Also with throttling, you get less performance obviously.

I don’t think temperatures are going to be a problem. Apple knows their SoCs well. I do think it will throttle in sustained workloads. So if you need a Pro, get a Pro device not a Mac mini for sustained workloads.

 

[Tago]

As you said to another person with a different perspective, with all respect obviously, this reads to me like another typical MacRumors comment 'Apple didn't design what I personally wanted, so clearly Apple is screwing up, when all they had to do was 'x'.' I get it, you don't want the extra cost of a Mac Studio, or maybe you just don't want to wait, but there is a sizable market that doesn't need the power of a Mac Studio, that will appreciate the more compact design (with less materials used, remember lowering the carbon footprint was also part of the design), and the low cost form factor.

People have been complaining that the mini form factor hasn't changed in a decade. Well here it is, the natural progression of the mini to separate it from the Mac Studio. You design suggestions would push it back to the Mac Studio. As for heat dissipation, people have been warning the same with the MacBook Air design that has NO fan... and yet.. the sky hasn't fallen yet. It is much cooler than the previous intel designs that did have a fan.

Your stance is aggressive and speculative. Even when the reviews come out, no doubt someone will find a situation where they can push it to a place that you will say 'see, I was right.' We have seen plenty of click bait videos like that. Thing is, they never reflect how 99.9% of users actually use the device. So I find it hard to rise up in arms and demand Apple designs us a Mac mini that is like a Mac Studio, but cheaper.

It's a good machine at a good price. Buy one and test it yourself with your work load. If it doesn't suit you, return and either wait for the studio, or try a MacBook Pro.

Second that. No machines in the wild yet, thus why assume there is a heat problem? Beats me. Personally I wouldn`t mind wider and thinner, but that`s just med wanting to hide it under my desk. Keeping it on top, it is a very very good design.

 

[Analog Kid]

There is a heat pipe there, but that's pretty much it.

Maybe you didn't notice the fan?