Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I don't think we're in much trouble if Apple has tasked IBM with automation development. It makes sense given their enterprise partnership.

I have read all sorts of opinions in this thread being presented as facts. I do like your suggestion that IBM could potentially be involved with automation development. It would be interesting to see. Having seen IBM put a Mainframe scripting language on the desktop and do it well (REXX for OS/2) gives me hope they are still that capable).

As for me, I find (my opinion) that Apple is trying to turn the home computer into an appliance and thus make it self contained and do only what Apple allows it to do under the guise of Apple knows what is best for us (we do after all, live in the age of big brother crap going on in politics).

Perhaps some brave smart person here will create an app that records akin to a key logger, has its own library and between the two creates scripts akin to an...well....an auto script (grin). I'll just end this here with a light article that questions Apple as others are proving to be more inspiring in product. https://www.thrillist.com/tech/nation/apple-commercials-problems-microsoft-samsung
 



sal-soghoian.jpg
Apple has eliminated the Product Manager of Automated Technologies role, ending Sal Soghoian's employment with the company. Soghoian revealed the news at the MacTech Conference in San Francisco, according to Mac Observer. He also posted about the news on his website, which is dedicated to the user automation community.
Soghoian was responsible for advancing a number of automation technologies for Apple, including UNIX CLI, Apple Events, JavaScript, AppleScript, Automator, Apple Configurator, scripting support for Photos, iWork, Finder, Mail and other Apple programs as well as Master for iTunes tools and Dictation Commands.

Since Apple eliminated the position, it's unclear what the move means for the future of automation technologies in macOS. Soghoian says the best thing to do for those concerned is to direct any questions or concerns to Apple.
Starting on December 1, Soghoian says he will begin considering opportunities and is available for consulting for user automation services. He also says he's optimistic about the future of user automation. "I've seen the benefits and power of individuals being able to automate critical and repetitive tasks," he wrote on his website. "Solution apps are great, emojis are fun, but there's nothing like really great automation tools."

Photo Credit: Andy Ihnatko

Article Link: Mac Automation Product Manager Sal Soghoian Leaves Apple After Position Eliminated
[doublepost=1479418878][/doublepost]I created a petition to hopefully show Apple that we want Applescript and scripting technologies to remain in the operating system. Please consider signing it and sharing it:

https://www.change.org/p/apple-keep-mac-user-automation-such-as-applescript-automator-in-mac-os-x
 
  • Like
Reactions: Canubis and phrehdd
In most companies, the responsible product manager for automation within a product would be the one for the specific product. Does Apple have some reason to have a cross-product manager for a specific feature class? Only if there is some strategic drive for uniformity, consistency, commonality, etc. Was that the case for the affected products? I'm not familiar with Apple automation; but if Apple automation is not consistent across Apple products, this guy was just taking up space.
[doublepost=1479390204][/doublepost]

I assume you never took a bit deeper look at Apple Script or Apple Event and the models and ideas behind. (Which is no big issue at all. In fact I assume most people never did although they definitely used it the one or the other way while it was working in the background silently for them. ;))
One of the ideas was for example to have all apps have a somewhat basic set of same functionality. E.g. you could tell every application to open a file with the same 1 line Apple Script. (Just like every app knows copy & paste of text and even some other types like images, formatting etc) Also, automation only really makes sense if it works between different apps and not just within 1 app. Just take the example presented in the Tiger keynote (somebody posted it here earlier). With just a few steps you can make a workflow to download all linked images from a website gallery (using Safari) to your disk (using Finder), import and create a fancy slide show video (iPhoto) and burn it to a DVD (using iDVD). For that it totally makes sense to have some consistency between apps. Especially if you do not just want users to fiddle around with completely different syntaxes per app and writing dozens lines of code, but if you're interested into building and maintaining a point-and-click automation tool like Automator that already understands all the most important apps.
 
Sal,
You introduced AppleScript to Mac users in Singapore in late 90’s I recall.
You generously gave all workshop attendees a CD of scripts which I still cherish.
It changed everything for me. I fell in love with Apple Macs (the Bondi iMac especially) when you showed how cool it was to automate.
I can’t believe Apple are so narrow minded when Siri has so much potential for automation.
I wish you well.
Michael Vallance
 
As for me, I find (my opinion) that Apple is trying to turn the home computer into an appliance and thus make it self contained and do only what Apple allows it to do under the guise of Apple knows what is best for us (we do after all, live in the age of big brother crap going on in politics).

No doubt. Anyone remember the dancing paper-clip? I think Apple's just about there.
 
I was brushing up on my Apple certs (ACTC) about 5 years ago when I saw Sal do an automation session at Apple Connect. He dazzled a room packed full of 150 pretty cynical techs essentially showcasing what Siri on the Mac might look like someday (shortly after it launched on iOS). Out of a cast of about 30 senior presenters that worked and developed for Apple he just plain stole the show. He was inspiring. He was awesome...

I regularly read Mac Rumors articles but don't typically have the time or energy to post anything. However this drove me to make this new account just to post:

Are you f_cking kidding me, Apple?
 
To be fair, Perl, Python, Ruby are not so out of date to be unusable out of the box. And in Python's case... tricky since versions are not compatible. (Look for the instructions on getting Civ IV working on OSX due to the Python update and SIP).

It might just mean they don't have any broad need for a unique department just for Automation. Even if they deprecate Applescript, doesn't mean AppleEvents will go away, they might instead give that responsibility to either the UNIX group or the folks working on Swift.
 
I was brushing up on my Apple certs (ACTC) about 5 years ago when I saw Sal do an automation session at Apple Connect. He dazzled a room packed full of 150 pretty cynical techs essentially showcasing what Siri on the Mac might look like someday (shortly after it launched on iOS). Out of a cast of about 30 senior presenters that worked and developed for Apple he just plain stole the show. He was inspiring. He was awesome...
.....
Are you f_cking kidding me, Apple?

Does a awesome demo guy make for a great product manager? He was being paid probably a very high salary for managing products, not giving demos. He could be outstanding at the latter, but if that was not his primary job...... there is a disconnect.

Should Apple have found him an educational, research demo job? Perhaps they could with a different structure. But it looking like that he got "parked" in a Product Managers job for some reason that just got skipped over while budgets were constantly growing.

Alot of this stuff doesn't make sense. Unix CLI , javascript are two fundamentally different things. The Unix shells are more of a porting issue than a classic product development track. javascript decoupled from the browser is kind of goofy. Coupling those because AppleScript has "script" in it name is not particularly useful or productive at all. I suspect there was talk of doing synergies there but a full blown product manager? Not particularly necessary, nor did super deep synergies appear over time.

I would suspect that the bulk of Unix shell and Javascript folks never really reported to him. Or if they did it was a constant drama issue for the Product managers who should have had those folks report to them. These two are only extremely superficially related.

The growing "share" / "plug in" mechanism between apps is probably a more natural place for Apple Events and Applescript to go. In short, there are probably other product managers where this stuff is a more natural fit. I wouldn't be surprised if this was actually where the coders were already organizationally assigned. It wouldn't be surprising if his slot was almost all "chief" with little to no "indians" doing day-to-day tactical stuff below him. That this was more if an idea cross-pollination position. After 10=12 years either the that seeding should have took or it didn't.

That said this does sound like lumbering HR and corporate politics. He a person with a mismatch skill set to position and instead of finding a better fit inside the company just eliminate the slot and hand out super large severance packages.
[doublepost=1479507493][/doublepost]
Yes, but nearly all of it is in overseas banks. Apple pays most of its bills in the US in US dollars. Tim has taken Apple $79B into debt in order to issue USD dividends on the stock.

They started doing it offshore too. Australia and Taiwan

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ussie-bond-market-with-two-part-bond-offering

Part of the ducking taxes everywhere scheme that is aimed at banker and lawyer employment more than technology employment ...

There is no plan to pay this debt down. It goes up every year. Tim is banking on paying the interest out of future profits. The risk is that once interest rates start rising, rolling over all that debt suddenly gets a lot more expensive, and servicing the interest starts to eat up a real chunk of change.

They should have a some plan. At least not to take anymore on. If Apples revenues go down the dividends should go down too. When start decoupling executive payouts and dividends from corporate results then there is major problem. That is the kind of crap that tanks companies long term. When the execs and investors are managing their own stock portfolio as opposed to managing the company, then the company tends to get thrown under the bus.


Tim has made some risky gambles that SJ was flatly opposed to. That's why debt and dividends and buybacks and all the rest didn't begin until they put SJ in the ground.

SJ didn't have Ichan and some of these greenmail vultures knocking on the door either. All that mountain of cash that SJ piled up drew too much attention. Now Apple has stockholders who basically just want to loot the cash more than care about the company. There is such a thing as having too much cash and too high margins if looking to do something for the long term.


Those gambles have worked out so far, but they rely on things always being as good as they are today. Apple's business just shrank 8% year over year, and there's not much reason to believe it couldn't happen again in 2017.

Zero to $79B debt in 6 years is alot. As long as Apple holds their 30% margins and holds an order of magnitude more in cash it isn't all that risk. Apple can pay all of that off. They'd just have to pay taxes to do it. It would be expense but it isn't particularly high risk (because can cover it. just don't want to. )

Getting rid of good people throughout engineering is no recipe for future product success.

Making an actual car never did make any sense. There is some "off in the weeds" stuff that Apple is doing that doesn't make sense.

Silicon Valley has general tendency to dump the older folks for younger folks mentality. Remember that Apple had a salary suppression agreement going with Google and others for a while that is also now off the table. The bottom half of the pyramid wanting more money is going to impact the top half ( or at least the buffer between the C-level execs and that bottom half. )
 
Last edited:
I was very sad when I noticed the news. I use AppleScript and Automator regularly and my productivity would suffer if they would be removed.

I'm not sure if Craig Federighi email is sufficient without actions to improve automation, in other words I believe it when (if) I see it...
 
  • Like
Reactions: huperniketes
If Apple does not upgrade the iMac, Mac Pro and Mac Mini in 2017 - then I am seriously considering switching to the MS ecosystem - and just have my iPhone use MS Software. It seems Apple is just giving up.
 
Does a awesome demo guy make for a great product manager? He was being paid probably a very high salary for managing products, not giving demos. He could be outstanding at the latter, but if that was not his primary job...... there is a disconnect.

Should Apple have found him an educational, research demo job? Perhaps they could with a different structure. But it looking like that he got "parked" in a Product Managers job for some reason that just got skipped over while budgets were constantly growing.

You make a few unwarranted conjectures, so I'll just make one point. A product manager who knows what matters to users and can demonstrate his product's ability to deliver value in a clear manner is quite valuable to a company that has long term interest in the product and the markets served by that product.

Alot of this stuff doesn't make sense. Unix CLI , javascript are two fundamentally different things. The Unix shells are more of a porting issue than a classic product development track. javascript decoupled from the browser is kind of goofy. Coupling those because AppleScript has "script" in it name is not particularly useful or productive at all. I suspect there was talk of doing synergies there but a full blown product manager? Not particularly necessary, nor did super deep synergies appear over time.

I would suspect that the bulk of Unix shell and Javascript folks never really reported to him. Or if they did it was a constant drama issue for the Product managers who should have had those folks report to them. These two are only extremely superficially related.

You'll want to revise these incorrect opinions in the future.


More conjecturing and WAGs I haven't time to respond to, although you do make valid points on their tax-avoidance policies and Icahn.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.