OS X Mac Gaming is Awesome!

[MacDude21]

Those who think mac gaming isn't an option are incorrect and make me mad. Macs are fine gaming computers. They run 99.5% of the games I've seen, and personally have not come across something I want that isn't compatible for mac. And worst comes to worst, you can simply BootCamp Windows.
But in terms of not being able to build your computer with OSX, yes, I agree that is sucks and think Apple should support it. It would benefit them, it's $20 more in their pocket and $100 that their competitor won't have. I personally plan to build a Hackintosh very soon due to the fact I want to get into building my own computer, and I want more bang for my buck(in terms of specs). Oh, and I'm building it for gaming.

 

[saturnotaku]

They run 99.5% of the games I've seen.

Then you've must not have seen many games.

My Steam library consists of 162 games; my origin library has 12. 55 of the former and only 1 of the latter are compatible with OS X. Several of those Mac titles are so badly optimized that they're not worth running.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

Then you've must not have seen many games.

My Steam library consists of 162 games; my origin library has 12. 55 of the former and only 1 of the latter are compatible with OS X. Several of those Mac titles are so badly optimized that they're not worth running.

Clearly, you purchased the wrong games or else you'd have more Mac ones. 😀

 

[edddeduck]

Sadly, a lot of (most?) "gamers" derive more pleasure from participating in platform/franchise/publisher/developer fanboyism or obsession over trivialities like Steam achievements than actually playing and enjoying their games. Either that or arguments over specs, as if somehow, their enjoyment of their gaming experience is directly proportional to how superior they can feel over others.

That's one more vocal on the internet group but it's in the minority. It's definitely not most gamers, these other factors you mention can help a good game succeed but the core success or failure of a title is making a good game. A popular franchise will sell well based off past glories for example but if you ship a poor game in a series then you have to make up for it with the next one or the sales will tail off and in the end the series will die.

As for the spec people you seem them more in forums but they are not most gamers, on the Mac most Steam "gamers" have a HD4000 series card! The PC Steam stats are similar the more popular cards are not the super high end ones. The high end gamer is vocal group but they are not the majority of gamers.

These days, it also seems like people buy games not because they're good (or even in spite of the fact that they're bad, or in spite of the bad consumer practices of their developers/publishers) but simply because they were offered on deep discount in a Steam sale.

I find based off experience that if a game is poor no amount of discounting will help it, however a "pretty good" game or an older AAA game with a deep discount will draw in people on the fence about buying the title. These are usually a completely different market to your main target audience who bought the game close to release on full price. You have users who want to play games, users who only buy games under a certain price, users who are atticted to flash sales etc

Game sales and the marketing around it is very complex beast, Valve spent the best part of an entire day (across various presentations) explaining just small bits of how game revenue works for them over the lifetime of differing products.

To be fair to you, I always had the impression that a large number of people who post to the MacRumors forums were actually people who blindly bash Apple products and their users... 😛

You do get a few trolls but that's the internet for you 🙂

But in terms of not being able to build your computer with OSX, yes, I agree that is sucks and think Apple should support it. It would benefit them, it's $20 more in their pocket and $100 that their competitor won't have. I personally plan to build a Hackintosh very soon due to the fact I want to get into building my own computer, and I want more bang for my buck(in terms of specs). Oh, and I'm building it for gaming.

Being a long time Mac user I can tell you this has happened before, but the "clones" that Apple did allow didn't help Apple, in fact it hurt Apple in many ways from financial through to user perception.

Apple is Apple because you have hardware and software designed to work together combined with high quality build quality so it all just works in a beautiful box. Allowing someone to hack together an (official) cheap PC and run OS X reduces the value of the entire brand.

Apple are a hardware company more than a software company so allowing people to make cheap clones doesn't help. When Apple tried it they learnt it just reduced their hardware sales and reduced the overall feel of quality Apple projected, it was a complete disaster. I can't see them ever allowing that to happen again.

Edwin

 

[knightlie]

Silly nonsense like this (a maxed out MacBook Pro from 2014 being inferior to a Windows machine from 2009? Really?) is another example of the problem here: people obsessed with the "PC Master Race" mindset, as if only people who are "hardcore" and use Windows have the right to be anointed with the holy label of "real gamer". It's eerily reminiscent of how Religious Fundamentalists feel how they can decide who is/isn't a "Real True Christian" (or "Real True Muslim", etc...)

I tend to ignore anyone describing themselves as a "real" or "hardcore" gamer - they're usually interested in fps, GPUs, DirectX and settings, and not actual enjoyment of playing the game. I play all sorts of games on my Mac, usually from GOG.com, and I like it just fine. That's what's important to me.

 

[VI™]

Those who think mac gaming isn't an option are incorrect and make me mad. Macs are fine gaming computers. They run 99.5% of the games I've seen, and personally have not come across something I want that isn't compatible for mac. And worst comes to worst, you can simply BootCamp Windows.
But in terms of not being able to build your computer with OSX, yes, I agree that is sucks and think Apple should support it. It would benefit them, it's $20 more in their pocket and $100 that their competitor won't have. I personally plan to build a Hackintosh very soon due to the fact I want to get into building my own computer, and I want more bang for my buck(in terms of specs). Oh, and I'm building it for gaming.

U mad bro? 😀

If by Mac running 99.5% of the games you've seen means that you can run Windows games on a Mac under Bootcamp, then yes, it's possible. But, it really depends on the computer. My Mac Mini with the ATI card and i5 can barely handle shadowrun. The Witcher 2 is completely unplayable at 2560x1600 resolution. The Mini does an adequate job of regular computing and photo editing at that resolution, but it's crippled when it comes to playing games and can play 50% of the games I've attempted to play on it. Now if I started downloading more games, that percentage would drop drastically.

My rMBP on the other hand is a beast, although hot and noisy. I'm playing Skyrim at high settings at the highest resolution without much of an issue. It's beautiful. If I tried to do this on the Mini, I think it would call Child Protective Services on me and have itself removed from my home.

 

[smoketetsu]

In my opinion we don't need DirectX just DirectX equivalency. Or hell, we need new better than DirectX APIs like AMD's Mantle. Other non-microsoft systems don't have or use DirectX either and they do just fine. Steambox isn't going to use DirectX. Valve is working on making OpenGL better.

With OpenGL 4.1 we are getting there as witnessed in Tomb Raider but there's always room for improvement and the Mac still hasn't fully caught up with the joneses. Partly due to middleware stuff from AMD and nvidia (physx, tressfx, etc.)

Being a long time Mac user I can tell you this has happened before, but the "clones" that Apple did allow didn't help Apple, in fact it hurt Apple in many ways from financial through to user perception.

I seem to remember clones having a reputation for being downright unstable compared to Apple's own. My local college for example had some and ended up returning them for first party computers from Apple.

 

[Solomani]

But in terms of not being able to build your computer with OSX, yes, I agree that is sucks and think Apple should support it.

Only people younger than 20 years old do not remember that back in the late 1990s, Apple did allow MacOS clones to exist. And that strategy also coincided with the near-bankruptcy and near-death of Apple Computer Inc in the late 1990s. In other words, the Mac cloning business did very little to help Apple whatsoever. The only thing that saved them was that CEO Gil Amelio was smart enough to beg Steve Jobs to return back to Apple.

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With OpenGL 4.1 we are getting there as witnessed in Tomb Raider but there's always room for improvement and the Mac still hasn't fully caught up with the joneses. Partly due to middleware stuff from AMD and nvidia (physx, tressfx, etc.)

I wish Apple would invest more money to bolster and advance OpenGL development, at least to the point where OpenGL becomes "nearly-as-good" as DirectX.

That might be one of the few things they can do to help the future of Mac gaming directly. With their billions in cash….

 

[antonis]

A big share of responsibility falls to the side of the game developing companies, though. Looking at Feral titles, the difference between windows and mac gaming fades a lot. Why can't everyone else do the same ? Because companies need to learn the mac platform better, and that's an investment they are not willing to make.

Drivers play also a big part in this, and that's just apple's and amd/nvidia responsibility.

 

[UBS28]

Mac gaming is fine for me. I only play Blizzard and some valve games anyway. I was never a big fan of titles such as Crysis on the PC.

However things could be better, such as Battlefield 3 on Mac or the latest CoD with proper multiplayer support.

 

[edddeduck]

I wish Apple would invest more money to bolster and advance OpenGL development, at least to the point where OpenGL becomes "nearly-as-good" as DirectX.

That might be one of the few things they can do to help the future of Mac gaming directly.

A big leap was made with OpenGL 4 support in Mavericks however there is still more that can be done, if we get OpenGL 4.1 -> 4.4 support you can cover pretty much all of the features needed to match DX11. It would mean we would be on parity with Windows and DX11 in almost every way (as long as DX11.1 isn't released before then 😉 )

 

[Solomani]

A big leap was made with OpenGL 4 support in Mavericks however there is still more that can be done, if we get OpenGL 4.1 -> 4.4 support you can cover pretty much all of the features needed to match DX11. It would mean we would be on parity with Windows and DX11 in almost every way (as long as DX11.1 isn't released before then 😉 )

Good advice. And I just sent Feedback to Apple, requesting that they should strongly consider integrating OpenGL 4.4 in a future Mavericks update. I strongly encourage other fellow Mac gamers here to do the same. It only takes a minute to submit feedback/requests to Apple, on their super-easy web form.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Good advice. And I just sent Feedback to Apple, requesting that they should strongly consider integrating OpenGL 4.4 in a future Mavericks update. I strongly encourage other fellow Mac gamers here to do the same. It only takes a minute to submit feedback/requests to Apple, on their super-easy web form.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Done, and done!

Although it's not just Apple that need to shape up. AMD do not conform with the Khronos Groups standards for OpenGL, and don't support 4.4 either yet according to them.

It'll take both of them, especially now with the Mac Pro to sort out OpenGL implementations.

On another note I've been playing around in Mac OS7, and DOS-Box lately. It's easy to forget how much better the Mac versions of games use to be.
Here's some screenshots I took of Starwars Dark Forces today.

 

[Irishman]

I would also add to this games that might have Mac ports but are not optimized and/or run poorly. Max Payne 3, The Witcher 2, and countless others fall into this category.

Countless?

Doubtful.

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The list of games that run on Linux (required for a true Steambox) is tiny compared to Mac OS X never mind Windows 🙂 True you can install Windows (but that's not longer a true SteamBox) it's a bit like using Bootcamp and saying you are playing Mac games. Streaming from a Mac or PC to a Steambox is interesting but is likely only good for turn based and slower paced games, anything else the lag makes it less fun to play.



Feral have supported Mac specific things for a decade now, over the years things I have personally helped add to Feral games includes:

1. iTunes pausing when dropping into game (un-pauses when you quit)
2. iChat status updates when you start playing.
3. Auto updates built into games
4. Automatic pad support PS1,2,3,4 360, GameCube, Logitech you name the pad and it will likely be supported and automatically be correctly mapped by default. We can even add in support using a plugin system if you pad isn't on the list. I think the list of pads that will map up is around ~125. 🙂
5. Retina support in most titles (all new games and every time we update an older game). The ability to scale the UI or not depends on the game engine some scale better than others.
6. Automatic crash reporting to Feral along with Support information generation to help end users if something does go wrong. It's not useful unless you have a bug but when you do it allows you to send us almost everything we need to look into the issue.
7. Screenshots with built in metadata recording the game name, your system spec and hardware and OS/Game versions.
8. Support for overlay notifications from OS X
9. Support for multiple monitors, you can always choose what monitor you want to use.
10. Some games we add in Mac extras here are a few of the examples:
"The Movies" were integrated with iTunes and iMovie so you can do things like use your iTunes music in your games editing.
"XIII" We added in every multiplayer mode and Map into XIII from all the consoles and the PC.
"Batman Arkham Asylum" The PS3 Joker mode was included on the Mac version of BMAC unlike the other consoles and PC.
"Sega Racing" Adding Online Multiplayer back into the game as it was split screen only on the PC.
11. iCloud game syncing for games with small save games (we can't on large games due to space concerns).

I am sure I can think of many more but those are a few off the top of my head, we also fix cross platform bugs when possible. 🙂 Making the Mac version better and adding in Mac specific feel and features is something I care about (as you can tell from the list I made 😉). I like to think we make Mac versions of games we don't just make Mac ports. It's a subtle difference but one that I think goes to the heart of why we do what we do.

The list of new Mac only extras that we want to do is long and we add them into our standard list of features one by one. If you have a nice feature that would make our games better just drop me a PM, I cannot guarantee it will be implemented but we do read and listen to our user base on this and other forums when looking for ideas on what we could improve or add to our games.

Edwin

Edwin,

You guys need to communicate this awesome stuff you're doing more effectively, because it's a big deal, and shows your dedication to the Mac platform, AND it shows that you GET what makes the Mac more than just another platform.

 

[edddeduck]

Edwin,

You guys need to communicate this awesome stuff you're doing more effectively, because it's a big deal, and shows your dedication to the Mac platform, AND it shows that you GET what makes the Mac more than just another platform.

Thanks, it's hard to get the word out sometimes but we are trying to make sure reviewers etc get to know what we do to the Mac versions. We might also dedicate a podcast to what makes an awesome Mac port so we can explain a little of what goes into our thought process.

A simple rule is if I (and my colleagues) are not proud to say "I worked on this game" on forums etc then it needs more polish before we ship it. It's a simple but very effective rule to tell is something is ready. We have many other more exact tests but this rule of thumb is a good barometer.

It's better to be a little late and well ported than release quicker and be unpolished.

Edwin

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Thanks, it's hard to get the word out sometimes but we are trying to make sure reviewers etc get to know what we do to the Mac versions. We might also dedicate a podcast to what makes an awesome Mac port so we can explain a little of what goes into our thought process.

A simple rule is if I (and my colleagues) are not proud to say "I worked on this game" on forums etc then it needs more polish before we ship it. It's a simple but very effective rule to tell is something is ready. We have many other more exact tests but this rule of thumb is a good barometer.

It's better to be a little late and well ported than release quicker and be unpolished.

Edwin

I certainly appreciate it as well!

You folks have done a stellar job! In fact it's one of the reasons I went and bought the game through the App Store, and not on sale through steam or getting a steam key else where.

 

[jeanlain]

Done, and done!

Although it's not just Apple that need to shape up. AMD do not conform with the Khronos Groups standards for OpenGL, and don't support 4.4 either yet according to them.
Image

Yeah AMD doesn't seem to give much importance to openGL compared to D3D. Their openGL drivers are notoriously poor compared to nVidia's, especially on linux (on OS X they may be better).
Intel is even worse. Their GPUs only support openGL 4.1, and that's might be why Apple didn't bother to support a more recent version (wild guess).

 

[erayser]

Interesting thread. I'm a fan of anything techie... so I have no issues with mac, windows, ps4, wii, or xbox. If it's tech... I want it... LOL. I do have preferences... but I have no intention of convincing anyone or justifying anything of my preferences. If you are happy with with you have... that's all that matters... right? I'm a windows pc person for gaming... and the main reason I prefer PC's is because my hobby is building and updating my rig... especially the watercooling part. I just finished my recent build (specs and links in sig) on New Years day... and it's been rock solid. Other than the building part... if games supports NVidia surround in 3 monitors, peripherals like xbox controllers, keyboards, mouse, 3D vision surround work... then I'm happy. If it doesn't work, I like tinkering and finding a solution. I guess I'm one of those that think... if things work, it seems kind of boring to me. I like to play with settings in BIOS... like cpu/memory overclocks, and bench-marking... and that's what I consider fun. It's not for everyone... but it's what I like. I even have a PS3 and PS4 because I like their exclusives.

I'm happy things are getting better for mac... and I hope things get better. I wan't mac owners to enjoy all games... no mater what platform a person prefers. I'd like to get a Mac pro someday... but my PC does everything I want for now. But a Mac is tech... and that's what I like... so maybe a future purchase. Isn't technology great??? 🙂

BTW... Looking forward to Titan Fall on PC... especially if NVidia surround is supported.😛

 

[edddeduck]

Interesting thread. I'm a fan of anything techie... so I have no issues with mac, windows, ps4, wii, or xbox. If it's tech... I want it... LOL. I do have preferences... but I have no intention of convincing anyone or justifying anything of my preferences. If you are happy with with you have... that's all that matters... right?

Well said

Edwin

 

[smoketetsu]

Yeah AMD doesn't seem to give much importance to openGL compared to D3D. Their openGL drivers are notoriously poor compared to nVidia's, especially on linux (on OS X they may be better).
Intel is even worse. Their GPUs only support openGL 4.1, and that's might be why Apple didn't bother to support a more recent version (wild guess).

In my experience neither vendors have drivers that are better than the other in all things. What I mean is, one might have bugs and incompatibilities with certain features in a game and the other might have entirely different ones with a different game. AMD drivers might be notoriously bad on Windows but not have the same problems with the games or applications that give it trouble in Windows in another system like Mac. Or they might be exposed in a different way there.

So you really can't point to one or even two operating systems and say the drivers are universally bad or even universally good. I noticed this moving from an AMD equipped Mac (the late 2009 model) to an nvidia equipped model (late 2012). I thought because people have been saying that nvidia has better OpenGL drivers that things would only be better when I upgraded but that's not the case. I traded one set of problems for another.

It's pretty useless to fanboy for one vendor or another in my opinion.

 

[smoketetsu]

I wish Apple would invest more money to bolster and advance OpenGL development, at least to the point where OpenGL becomes "nearly-as-good" as DirectX.

A thing to keep in mind here however is that there are already companies such as Valve now pushing and investing in this already. Nvidia and AMD have engineers working on extensions to improve OpenGL making it close to if not as good as a low level API from what I hear. Which by the way, Direct3D is not a low level API and vendors are trying to make competitive APIs that are better and more "open" than it.

More money wouldn't hurt though and Apple taking it even more seriously than they do now wouldn't be a bad thing. But they seem to be on the path already as noted by Edwin mentioning their 4.x support.

On the other hand IMO it's not the shot in the arm that it's made out to be as a vast majority of existing software (e.g. games) don't use it. Also, my GPU happens to be one of those ones that only support up to OpenGL4.1 according to the specs sheet. And it's nvidia... so it's not just AMD who have been shipping GPUs like that lately. OTOH I know some nvidia GPUs higher than mine have full 4.4 support.

Also, upgrading OpenGL will do no good if enough people are stragglers staying on old versions of OS X causing game publishers to only target the least common denominator. And before you start beating the drum about losing compatibility with older games I'm fully aware of this. I've been keeping everything up to date and swapping software out as necessary. Sometimes to Wine or virtualization for older games.

Not trying to poo poo OpenGL updates. I just think one should have a more realistic view of it. In the long run especially as more and more people upgrade to newer and newer hardware and software it's a good thing. Tech marches on....

BTW, as much as people like to say that OpenGL needs more work and more people to take it seriously to me it seems it has a lot more people investing and working on it than say... OpenAL has. I think sound is in more dire need of more engineers taking it seriously. I'm a sound buff and I'd like to see, no.. HEAR.. more OS X games with movie quality surround sound.

Consoles had stuff like that since the original Xbox. Hell, even some SNES games had specific support for Dolby Surround (I've had it since mid-90's). 😉 Also, Windows had 3D sound via APIs like Directsound3D since the late 90's. Even Windows games could use some work in the sound department though. Especially after they've moved towards more Xbox oriented APIs for the sound rather than DirectSound. Although games like Alan Wake use those APIs perfectly.

AMD is making hardware accelerated sound chips into their latest GPUs with enhanced 3D sound capabilities and software to go with it (TrueAudio). But I don't know if OS X support is in the cards. Also, I don't know if Nvidia is working on anything similar.

Even if you aren't a sound nut or you don't care about surround sound having a well implemented and optimized sound would benefit you as well at least from the performance standpoint. Or even just making stereo sound have better panning.

Or say you wanted to hear 3D sound via headphones and "head related transfer function". Especially if you want fully immersive sound to go with your fancy schmancy new Oculus VR headset.

 

[Stella]

> Turbine Entertainment offers LoTRO and DDO on their site.

DDO is in beta for Mac and it shows - your better off playing the windows version. Too many graphical glitches, damage isn't even displayed correctly.

 

[Janichsan]

DDO is in beta for Mac and it shows - your better off playing the windows version. Too many graphical glitches, damage isn't even displayed correctly.

Really? Still? The Mac version of DDO is out now for more than a year now and they still haven't fixed the graphical glitches it had right from the beginning?

 

[Stella]

Really? Still? The Mac version of DDO is out now for more than a year now and they still haven't fixed the graphical glitches it had right from the beginning?

Yes, still. Progress is slow.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Kingdom Come: Deliverance

It'll be using the latest Cryengine and will be on Mac as well. One of the few, if not the first game on Mac to use that engine I think.