Mac Mini 2012: Samsung 840 SSD

Discussion in 'Mac mini' started by Marvin16, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. Marvin16, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013

    Marvin16 macrumors member

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    #1
    Hi I have a samsung 840 SSD (250Gb) i have had it for roughly 2 months and i just found out about TRIM but i dont understand it i have seen an app where i can turn it on i did this and it slowed down the read and right speeds of my SSD could someone please explain weather i should enable it and what effect would it have on my mac?

    Thanks Marvin16
    -------------------------------------------
    also i have just seen the new samsung 840 EVO SSD i notice that the read speed is 30Mbps more and write is 150Mbps but i dont do video or photo editing so write doesnt matter to me is it worth returning my ssd for this new one, i dont know weather i should bother as its alot of effort taking one out and putting one in some advice would be appriciated here is my current speeds ,
    http://gyazo.com/1c4d6422af62f54c30eca29548108004
     
  2. niteflyr macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    I think the overall consensus around the forum is that trim should be enabled. As for the new EVO drive vs. your current drive, the slight increase in speeds will only be measurable with the black magic test. Very unlikely to be noticeable during every day usage. I'm getting similar speeds from my Samsung 840 250GB also.
     
  3. Marvin16 thread starter macrumors member

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    #3
    Ok thanks i think i will enable trim, and good to know i dont need to upgrade

    Thanks
    Marvin16
     
  4. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #4
    The reason why people on this forum want TRIM enabled is because somebody told them. People who enable it generally do not understand the workings of their ssd at all and such people should therefore leave it alone. There are no tweaks for an ssd. You put it in your Mac, you use it. End of story. Most tweaks do nothing or cause erratic behaviour. Enabling TRIM seems to be doing the latter for some but for most others it does nothing (check out the TRIM Enabler topics). Why install something that doesn't bring any benefits at all but where you might run the risk of running into problems with your ssd? The ssd will run fine without TRIM as it has been designed to do. Especially the ones from Samsung. They know how to create a proper ssd.
     
  5. KrisLord macrumors 6502a

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    #5
    I think that's misleading... don't apple SSD's come with TRIM enabled? If so why would you not want that enabled on a 3rd party SSD?
     
  6. niteflyr macrumors 6502a

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    #6
  7. MJL macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    Wrong!
     
  8. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #8
    They come with TRIM enabled but those ssd's are OEM versions. They have a firmware that is tailored to what Apple wants. They have more control so they can match the ssd closer to OSX. Could be that for a technical reason they've disabled TRIM support and due to the many people having problems with it it seems to confirm that (there might be some cases where small changes cause these problems, timing mismatches, little things like that).

    Bit harsh to call it misleading but yes, it's strange. So is this strange urge to have TRIM. GC works fine. Wouldn't worry about using 3rd party ssd's in a Mac. Many put one in and didn't tweak anything. It still works fine, no problems there. People indeed need to learn about what TRIM and GC actually are as well as how an ssd really works. There are too much phantom stories about TRIM now.

    Somebody already listed the Wikipedia article about TRIM so I'll list the one for garbage collection (GC). Read both and read user experiences with ssd's (with and without TRIM): Garbage collection. It will make you understand why it's not the end of the world if TRIM isn't supported.

    Btw, also learn what TRIM Enabler does exactly. It's about hacking or enabling some hidden features in OSX that are undocumented and unsupported. That means there is no guarantee it will work and no guarantee it will work properly.
     
  9. MJL macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    Oh boy, you are so misinformed it ain't even funny. Enough said, I'll leave you to wallop in your misconceptions.
     
  10. jwjsr, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013

    jwjsr macrumors 6502

    jwjsr

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    #10
    Curious do your speeds go back up when u disable trim?
     
  11. Neodym macrumors 65816

    Neodym

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    #11
    While the benefits of TRIM are clearly there, i'm not sure the same can be said of using TRIM Enabler software for 3rd party drives under OSX. As has been said already, Apple's implementation of TRIM may still be lacking in some parts.

    On a 2011 MBA (not exactly sure if it was under Lion or already Mountain Lion) i had the phenomenon that the (Apple) SSD showed some 20GB free space in finder and i could not write a ~5GB file, as OSX claimed "not enough free space" on that drive. Obviously the GC/Trim mechanisms in OSX had failed there.

    When i ran into similar problems with my Hackintosh setup and Mountain Lion a year later (using TRIM enabler and a Samsung 830 SSD, which is considered very compatible), i grew reserved towards the idea of hack-enabling a software part in OSX that might still have some quirks even with factory drives.
     
  12. MrGIS macrumors regular

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    #12
    Download and install "Trim Enabler"

    Run and turn trim on.

    Problem solved..
     
  13. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #13
    Wrong, do it again but read his post properly this time (as well as what you are quoting)!

    So apparently it is not "problem solved" but "problem caused" ;)

    As time have learned us there is no need to worry about things like speed, TRIM/GC and amount of p/e cycles. These ssd's run fine and will last. You'll probably replace them sooner than they'll die and if you don't fill them up entirely there is no problem with speed. Both GC and TRIM will get the job done, if you have either of them you're fine (in theory TRIM does it a little bit better because it knows what to clear exactly whereas GC needs to calculate it (see the Wikipedia links in above posts)). No need to go mental over it.
     
  14. MrGIS macrumors regular

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    #14
    Bunk..

    Trim does not have anything to do with speed directly. It takes care of garbage collection, frees up space immediately so junk files don't cause bottlenecks later. Install and enable Trim enabler and you will be all good.
     
  15. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #15
    Another misinformed person who didn't read the listed wikipedia articles...it's getting old. Quite simple: ssd's have problems with speed when all NAND cells are filled even when they don't have to be. Both TRIM and GC clean out those cells that don't need to be filled. Period. That's all they do. How they do it is a different story and doesn't really matter. It might be if something that you do requires to be counted in nanoseconds or smaller.

    As long as you have either one of them on your ssd there is nothing to worry about. Your ssd will be fine, your family will be fine, you won't be arrested for committing some kind terrorist attack, etc. etc. Just use it and enjoy your computer. Stop panicking about these silly things.
     
  16. niteflyr macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    From the Wiki TRIM article:

    The TRIM command is designed to enable the operating system to notify the SSD which pages no longer contain valid data due to erases either by the user or operating system itself. During a delete operation, the OS will both mark the sectors as free for new data and send a TRIM command to the SSD to be marked as no longer valid. After that the SSD knows not to relocate data from the affected LBAs during garbage collection. This results in fewer writes to the flash, reducing write amplification and increasing drive life.

    You are correct in that built in Garbage Collection will also "clean out those cells". TRIM does it more efficiently with less wear on the drive. That is why I enable TRIM.
     
  17. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #17
    Anandtech has already shown that the difference between TRIM and GC is too minor. Also, there have been many sites who have done some testing regarding lifespan of an ssd when being written to on a daily basis with tons of data. None of them have seen lifespans below 10 years. What they've seen are lifespans of about 50 years and up. A Dutch website (nl.hardware.info) did some testing with the Samsung 840 (it uses TLC and has a much smaller NAND lifespan) and they drew the same conclusion.

    In the end a failure of the controller is far more likely. It is that kind of failure we should fear, not NAND going bust due to too many writes. That's why Intel is looking at the controller now and trying to make it more reliable.
    This discussion about NAND lifespan isn't new. We've had that discussion with people doing all sorts of crazy tweaks that result in barely using the ssd (why on earth did you buy one in the first place?!) because they feared that the NAND cells would go and thus their ssd would be defective. From experience and tests it became clear that we shouldn't fear.

    The best thing you can do with any ssd is to buy 'm, install 'm and use 'm as much as you possibly can. Or in simpler words: enjoy it :) Unfortunately not many people seem to be doing that. Many live in fear. They apply various tweaks and run benchmarks regularly. If something is a bit off they panic. No need for that.
     
  18. corvus32 macrumors 6502a

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    USA
    #18
    I think people baby their SSD's way to much.

    FWIW, I have a Intel 520 SSD that's been the main drive in several Windows 7, Linux, and OS X computers. It's been erased, formatted, repartitioned, and installed to so many times, but still reports the same speed and health it did over a year a ago when I bought it. If TRIM was ever enabled it was under Windows 7 by default. I never bothered enabling TRIM, noatime, or any other tweaks under Linux and OS X. I've pretty much treated it just like a mechanical hard drive. Chalk it up to excellent firmware, dumb luck, or whatever, but it has survived just fine.
     

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