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+ Eleventy billion. considering what the retail cost is of NVMe SSDs are, and the massive discount Apple gets for ordering in massive quantities, the base amount they give AND what they charge for upgrades is obscene.

This is very clearly Tim Cook & Co. trying to offset lackluster sales income by increasing prices. It doesn't work. EVEN if Apple moves to their own GPUs, someone, somewhere will find a way for it to work (like Mojave works on AMD Ryzen) and more and more people (read: pros) will move towards Hackintoshes or into another OS altogether.

You are so wrong on every point.

Apple’s SSD’s are proprietary, as either chips soldered to the logic board or as proprietary daughter cards. So I’m not sure what you mean by “ordering” them.

And “more and more people will move towards...”. You really don’t understand Apple’s target market. Hint: it’s not us.
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You know as well as I do that everybody...


See... you lose all credibility in your arguments when you say blanket statements like this.

If that’s your narrow minded position then you have no concept of Apple’s target market (again, hint: it’s not us MR readers) and of who will buy this, what they’ll do with it or the value they’ll get out of it.

Nor did you understand a word I said or give any sensible argument to my points about experience and the package.
 
Apple’s SSD’s are proprietary, as either chips soldered to the logic board or as proprietary daughter cards. So I’m not sure what you mean by “ordering” them.
Once again, more excuse for Apple. Companies usually go proprietary for basically two reasons.

1) Design is mandatory
2) Profit, you have to buy the part from them if they use replaceable parts.

Sony did something similar with their PS Vita. They decided to use proprietary memory cards instead of using Micro SD cards. Why? Because you could buy a Micro SD card for 85-90% of the cost of Sony's memory cards for the PS Vita. And consumers caught on and even the Sony faithful said, hell no to the money grubbing greed.

Even if Apple uses soldered chips for their SSD's when they could have used standard PCI-e SSD storage just makes Apple look bad as money grubbers. Because you have to buy the storage from them. I'm sure there's the other excuse, just buy an external TB3 SSD and shut up. My answer is why? Why do you have to add to the cost if Apple after raised the price but instead allowed the consumer to have the choice to replace their 128GB SSD storage with a higher capacity in the future. But i'm sure the Apple excuses will continue. That's just par for the course.
 
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Come on. NVMe drives are much cheaper than Apple prices and ubiquitous nowadays. It's not some kind of alien technology only used by Apple.
A Samsung 970 Pro 1TB is top of the line and $393 on NewEgg. Apple pricing? $800, plus the 128GB default drive is removed, plus if it fails outside warranty you throw away your whole computer or are forced to boot off an external drive for eternity, plus if some other component of your computer fails, you can't take out your drive for data retrieving. SAD.
In all seriousness, I’d love to see the numbers on how the Apple SSDs stack up against the alternative nVME drives out there. Eg price/performance ratio is important here, when making generalised sweeping statements. The T2 chip acts as Apple’s proprietary SSD controller - and the numbers I’ve seen for read/write speed are impressive.
 
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Once again, more excuse for Apple. Companies usually go proprietary for basically two reasons.

1) Design is mandatory
2) Profit, you have to buy the part from them if they use replaceable parts.

Sony did something similar with their PS Vita. They decided to use proprietary memory cards instead of using Micro SD cards. Why? Because you could buy a Micro SD card for 85-90% of the cost of Sony's memory cards for the PS Vita. And consumers caught on and even the Sony faithful said, hell no to the money grubbing greed.

Even if Apple uses soldered chips for their SSD's when they could have used standard PCI-e SSD storage just makes Apple look bad as money grubbers. Because you have to buy the storage from them. I'm sure there's the other excuse, just buy an external TB3 SSD and shut up. My answer is why? Why do you have to add to the cost if Apple after raised the price but instead allowed the consumer to have the choice to replace their 128GB SSD storage with a higher capacity in the future. But i'm sure the Apple excuses will continue. That's just par for the course.

You ask why?

Because the package. And all the engineering and R&D that goes into it, and the experience. See my other replies about that.

If you don’t understand that then why are you here arguing about this stuff? Go buy a PC for half the price and leave Apple and us “fanboys” the hell alone.
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In all seriousness, I’d love to see the numbers on how the Apple SSDs stack up against the alternative nVME drives out there. Eg price/performance ratio is important here, when making generalised sweeping statements. The T2 chip acts as Apple’s proprietary SSD controller - and the numbers I’ve seen for read/write speed are impressive.
Exactly.
 
To be honest I will probably get one of these and Thunderbolt 3 a new workstation together. Using the Razer Core X + RX580 in my 2015 MBP, and this looks like a good "home" setup.

What is the cooling like under load? I suppose it cant get any hotter than my current MacBook Pro, but would love to hear how hot they get.
 
What's wrong with the eGPU choice??

Why shouldn't they maximize CPU performance internally (something you can't add externally) and let us choose whatever GPU we want externally? That seems like a much more sensible decision than crippling both to fit them internally.

Sure, make a bigger Mac that can hold both? Imagine what that would be like? I'm guessing it'll be a lot like the upcoming Mac Pro. Or you even have the choice of one with a grea GPU and the best display on the market built in -- that's called iMac or iMac Pro (depending on what other choices you might like to make). But if a display is external why shouldn't the GPU be external with it?

But some people just like to whine no matter what.
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2.5 - 3 GB/s NVMe SSDs? If not, then shut up and come back when you're willing to do a fair comparison.

People are still stuck in the 90s and early 2000s. Needing large internal storage and a GOU at all costs.

But we are in 2018. Sure eGPU will not meet 100% of the performance, but we are in an external world now. External SSDs are just as fast as internal (especially with the Samsung X5). External GPU are roughly 80% of the performance. And ANY eGPU would probably out perform any laptop grade dGPU Apple could have put in the Mini.

I need the processing power more that an internal GPU (I might not even need an eGPU for what I do). Therefore, the lower the price is, the better I will be.

I would shoot for the Xeons, but they don’t have quicksync for video rendering.
 
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Agree with your comments, but also it’s down to PCI-e lanes where Apple has chosen to allocate them to expansion via TB3 rather than tie them down to an internal dGPU.

Early reports suggest that the Mac mini has two independent 40Gbps TB3 channels, presumably shared between the 4 physical connectors. PCI-e lanes are somewhat restricted in domestic Intel CPUs so you can’t have your proverbial cake and eat it. As an eGPU users myself (on a 2016 MBP) I would say keeping expansion options open is the better long term play.
Where did you find the information on the TB3? I would like to read this.
 
You ask why?

Because the package. And all the engineering and R&D that goes into it, and the experience. See my other replies about that.

If you don’t understand that then why are you here arguing about this stuff? Go buy a PC for half the price and leave Apple and us “fanboys” the hell alone.
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Exactly.
Oh please stop it, that's just a bunch of BS. I have a full understanding of the situation, it's you who doesn't understand and is just making excuses for Apple. Here's the full understanding of the gibberish you wrote. It's called get ready for this: "designed for maximum profit".
 
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People are still stuck in the 90s and early 2000s. Needing large internal storage and a GOU at all costs.

But we are in 2018. Sure eGPU will not meet 100% of the performance, but we are in an external world now. External SSDs are just as fast as internal (especially with the Samsung X5). External GPU are roughly 80% of the performance. And ANY eGPU would probably out perform any laptop grade dGPU Apple could have put in the Mini.

I need the processing power more that an internal GPU (I might not even need an eGPU for what I do). Therefore, the lower the price is, the better I will be.

I would shoot for the Xeons, but they don’t have quicksync for video rendering.

I love the eGPU setup and the RX 580 I use powers a 34" LG Ultra Wide just fine. I am using a TB2 -> TB3 adapter as well and still works wonderfully. I understand people don't want to buy extra stuff, but the fact that I can upgrade my GPU and storage space as needed was the selling point for me.

I am probably going to get the mid range Mac Mini and see how it does for web development and some small Final Cut Pro X video rendering.
 
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Apple rarely has released a product with bleeding edge new technology. They are always a generation behind (sort of playing catch-up to PC hardware with regards to general specs). It takes them so long to develop anything that it makes it almost impossible to design for a very new CPU, for instance.
your statement is truth, however, none of us believe it HAS to be that way. Apple could innovate, and stay AHEAD of the curve for a change. That would especially be nice to see in the Pro Mac lineup.
 
Sure, the memory upgrades aren't fantastically cheap, but they're not that much more than the kits from say OWC, and honestly thats pretty much irrelevant to me. If it's considered non-user-upgradable I may as well just get it from the start.

Apple wants $600 for an upgrade to 32GB - if you go on crucial.com, you can get a pair of Micron DDR4-2666 16GB SODIMMs (quite likely exactly what Apple uses) for $286 - and the difference between that and a pair of 4GB sticks is about $210 (which is what you're paying Apple for). Apple are asking nearly three times the consumer retail price of the RAM. I.e. the Crucial prices include a decent profit margin for Crucial.

For 16GB, its $200 from Apple vs. $142 for the sticks (or $70 more than 8GB). The best you can say is that, for 16GB, the saving is not worth the hassle of DIY - but you're still being gouged.

...lets not pretend that every time you order a 16GB BTO, someone at Apple literally has to take an 8GB machine off the shelf and spend billable hours manually upgrading it.

Trouble is, if people just sit back and take those prices, Apple might think that they can perhaps gouge a bit more. At least whinge.

And yes, you know, and I know that, in commercial use, the cost of IT equipment is almost negligible if you offset it against the potential saving in labour costs. That's great if you're your own boss and your cashflow is all in the green. Work in an organisation with more than a dozen employees and you'll have to justify your purchases to a pointy-haired boss who only knows that they've been offered a bonus if they can shave 10% off the IT budget (and if that comes at a productivity cost or forces staff to buy equipment out of their own pocket that's somebody else's problem). Even if you prevail, the usual trick is for them to bounce back the requisition with a query and then take 14 days' leave.

No matter what product is released, it's "wrong" somehow for a part of this 'community'.

However that's partly an issue with the totality of Apple's current product lineup: they're becoming quite narrowly focussed on very specific requirements. Pretty much every current Mac can be summarised as "if its exactly what you want, then its exactly what you want!" -

Case in point, the 2013 MacPro cylinder (which may also have been the beginning of the trend) - it was a brilliant solution if you wanted a Final Cut Pro (or other OpenCL optimised application) "appliance" with just enough internal storage for the system and applications and already used external drives to hold your projects (I've seen video studios with PCs that worked that way). What it wasn't was the sort of "Swiss army knife" that the old Cheesegrater provided.

Apple have never offered a huge choice, but since the late 90s they've offered a carefully thought-out choice, based on Jobs' "product matrices", which always included a user-expandable tower to tick the "other" box. That went in 2013, and since then its all got a bit random with every new/revised model pared down a little bit more for the target consumer de jour (if you've ever endured a user-centred design session you'll be able to picture the fake dossier for Mr/Ms Deliberately Androgynous Name that the human experience team will have created).

Likewise the current laptops: if ultra portability and battery life is a key requirement for you, they're without match. If you don't mind lugging a somewhat heavier box if that means its the only box you have to lug then they're rather frustrating.

The problem is that Apple are also trying to maintain an ecosystem in competition with Windows/Linux and the huge, huge advantage that Windows/Linux has is that if you don't like any of the "off-the-peg" mini/laptop/all-in-one offerings you can get a "bespoke" system in which you get to select every component (maybe not milk-frothers, but close).

With Apple, if you don't like one of the limited range of sealed units the only real alternative is to dump the whole MacOS ecosystem.
 
I love the eGPU setup and the RX 580 I use powers a 34" LG Ultra Wide just fine. I am using a TB2 -> TB3 adapter as well and still works wonderfully. I understand people don't want to buy extra stuff, but the fact that I can upgrade my GPU and storage space as needed was the selling point for me.

I am probably going to get the mid range Mac Mini and see how it does for web development and some small Final Cut Pro X video rendering.

Excellent setup, and I was really surprised at the performance across TB2, I knocked around with the same setup at a VR shop a while back, almost scored one the next day!

Anyway, I can tell you, for web dev, a Mini is terrific, I used a 2012 i5 and later a i7/QC machines, and with 16GB RAM and a - by today's standards, slow - SSD in place of one of the spinners and it easily handled dozens of services running (Mongo/Postgres, multiple web instances) plus all the dev tools I could throw at it, usually concurrently (like XCode with an iPhone sim, a web/DB server for the backend, various debuggers/test tools, etc.)
 
Oh please stop it, that's just a bunch of BS. I have a full understanding of the situation, it's you who doesn't understand and is just making excuses for Apple. Here's the full understanding of the gibberish you wrote. It's called get ready for this: "designed for maximum profit".

I would have to agree. I remember when Apple started using the nvme SSDs and the performance was comparable to the Samsung equivalents (hardly surprising given Samsung was making the controllers).

Soldering them to the logic board forces the users to spend money up front buying more space than they might need.

I bought my 2011 MBP with 4GB of RAM and a 750GB 5400RPM hard disk. I upgraded it to 16GB RAM and a 512GB SSD, which Apple did not a see a penny of.

In a shrinking market (and it is, phone and computer sales are down because performance is not making big jumps), Apple are starting to chase the pennies to maintain their profitability.
 
Trouble is, if people just sit back and take those prices, Apple might think that they can perhaps gouge a bit more.

When have Apple not charged higher than retail for memory, or storage upgrades? I don't buy the "if we complain they wont do it" angle. They've been doing it since I bought my first Mac 20 years ago.

At least whinge.

Work in an organisation with more than a dozen employees and you'll have to justify your purchases to a pointy-haired boss who only knows that they've been offered a bonus if they can shave 10% off the IT budget (and if that comes at a productivity cost or forces staff to buy equipment out of their own pocket that's somebody else's problem).

Sounds like you're whinging about the wrong problem in your life.
if you don't like any of the "off-the-peg" mini/laptop/all-in-one offerings you can get a "bespoke" system in which you get to select every component

If you believe Windows or Linux is a viable option for you, then this is a choice you can make. For some, it's not worth whatever perceived benefit you may get from the greater hardware variety.

if you don't like one of the limited range of sealed units the only real alternative is to dump the whole MacOS ecosystem.

I'm well aware of the limitations of Apple's line. The current Mac Pro was also the end of being able to build a high-cpu, high-memory, meh-whatever GPU machine. And now they've brought that back, somewhat in the Mac Mini.

I'm hopeful the trend will continue further with the 2019 Mac Pro, but I'm not holding my breath. Even if it returns to being a big honking great (space-grey anodised, of course) aluminium box with quad Xeons, 6 PCI-e slots, quad nvme slots on the mainboard and 8 2.5 SATA slots, I won't be surprised in the slightest if the minimum purchase choice includes a crazy $1000 video card. I guess at least I could sell it the card to someone else.


At this point, complaining about Apple's memory prices is like complaining about airline food.
 
Excellent setup, and I was really surprised at the performance across TB2, I knocked around with the same setup at a VR shop a while back, almost scored one the next day!

Anyway, I can tell you, for web dev, a Mini is terrific, I used a 2012 i5 and later a i7/QC machines, and with 16GB RAM and a - by today's standards, slow - SSD in place of one of the spinners and it easily handled dozens of services running (Mongo/Postgres, multiple web instances) plus all the dev tools I could throw at it, usually concurrently (like XCode with an iPhone sim, a web/DB server for the backend, various debuggers/test tools, etc.)
Thanks man. Input is deff appreciated!
 
Okay, that is what is really confusing to me, you will intentionally suffer with a crappy experience over a $65 dollar subscription to office 2016 but have 0 problem throwing down 1k or more for a Mac mini? Also win10 isn't that bad, either are the updates, btw some of the updates on win10 provide some pretty cool features.

They were my thoughts too. There's even a dark mode around the corner.
 
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I was considering this, but I'm hesitant.

If I JUST upgrade the SSD, I'm paying a thousand bucks.

Compare that to a base, 256 GB SSD 5k iMac from 20017.

The RAM is more accessible, point iMac. The CPU should be about the same, it's a wash. The SSD is the same size, another wash. Now, the iMac comes with a dedicated GPU. RX570 isn't great, but it's good enough that I wouldn't need an eGPU. I wouldn't need to buy external speakers. I would get a 5k screen that probably looks a fair bit better than my 27" 1440p screen. And selling the peripherals, the price difference between iMac and Mac Mini is 'only' 800 bucks.
Good point and it may be worth looking at the 2017 iMac when deciding. I was considering getting a mini and a wide screen display, but if I am essentially getting the 5K screen for a couple hundred bucks, it might be worth going that route and sticking with 27 inches (which would require me to just plug it, rather than also needing to make space for a larger display).
 
People are still stuck in the 90s and early 2000s. Needing large internal storage and a GOU at all costs.

But we are in 2018. Sure eGPU will not meet 100% of the performance, but we are in an external world now. External SSDs are just as fast as internal (especially with the Samsung X5). External GPU are roughly 80% of the performance. And ANY eGPU would probably out perform any laptop grade dGPU Apple could have put in the Mini.

I need the processing power more that an internal GPU (I might not even need an eGPU for what I do). Therefore, the lower the price is, the better I will be.

I would shoot for the Xeons, but they don’t have quicksync for video rendering.

This is well explained.

People need to understand how things change. Apple isn't building computers with specs that give nerds something to drool over. Apple builds solutions to personal and business problems.

Those solutions are different to what they used to be, and for good reasons. Why does everything have to be in one internal case? Sure, the people stuck in the 90's want that because they're stuck there, but the rest of us don't believe that's the best solution to the actual problem any more.

I LIKE having separate pieces I can put together how I like, using external busses that are now as fast as internal busses. That's what Thunderbolt brings to the table. In my opinion that's the way it should always have been. The reason we had everything built into these large towers in the past isn't because it was the best way to do it, it's because it was the only way to do it. None of the external busses could drive graphics cards until now. None of the external busses could drive storage anywhere near as fast as internal storage. But with Thunderbolt, that's all changed. There is no reason, other than nostalgia, to have to have everything in one (quite often mostly empty) box any more.

In 2006 I had the first Mac Pro. I had that machine because it had the fastest processor and the best graphics. All the other stuff it had in it, I didn't need, but I had to have it, or a bunch of empty space for it, because it was the only machine with that much power in it. I had to cart that damn thing - mostly empty tower - back and forth between home and work because I did a lot of work from home as well as the office.

This Mac Mini is everything I would have needed then. In a fraction of the space. In 2013-14 everyone was making similar complaints about the trash can Mac Pro as they're making now about this Mac Mini. Same deal. Towers (with everything connected via internal PCI, effectively) are the past. Modular pieces connected via external busses are the present and the future. And for good reason. Now I can choose what parts I want and have them only take up the space and weight I need, not have this humongous box with mostly empty space in it.

As Whiplash says, we're in an external world now, at no significant cost to performance. Tower lovers, please move into the 21st century and get over it.
 
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You are so wrong on every point.

Apple’s SSD’s are proprietary, as either chips soldered to the logic board or as proprietary daughter cards. So I’m not sure what you mean by “ordering” them.

And “more and more people will move towards...”. You really don’t understand Apple’s target market. Hint: it’s not us.
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Does Apple own its own manufacturing facilities and manufacture SSDs or do they buy them from a third party supplier?
 
Does Apple own its own manufacturing facilities and manufacture SSDs or do they buy them from a third party supplier?
At this point, I believe they are now doing that work themselves as they can take raw NAND and either solder it to the motherboard or put it on a discrete package that plugs into the motherboard as they do with the iMac Pro. It was noted earlier in a different thread that the NAND packaging for the iMac Pro does not have a controller on it since the T2 fulfills that function, which means, unlike the SSAUX, SSUBX and Polaris SSDs, there is no Samsung controller on Apple’s most recent computers, just raw NAND and some base logic to help it communicate with the T2.
 
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At this point, I believe they are now doing that work themselves as they can take raw NAND and either solder it to the motherboard or put it on a discrete package that plugs into the motherboard as they do with the iMac Pro. It was noted earlier in a different thread that the NAND packaging for the iMac Pro does not have a controller on it since the T2 fulfills that function, which means, unlike the SSAUX, SSUBX and Polaris SSDs, there is no Samsung controller on Apple’s most recent computers, just raw NAND and some base logic to help it communicate with the T2.

Is that not the same controller that now prevents bootcamp?
 
is every journalist bought by Apple that no one is writing any critical article about the Mac Mini and complete Mac line.
Why is every one so happy to get a one year old 8th gen i7 instead of a 9th gen i7 with 8 Cores.
If i spend thousands of euros or dollars, I want to have the newest hardware with a great dedicated graphic card.
The enthusiasm for the 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, reminds me the articles of the Mac Pro in 2013. But at the end it was a dead end that is still sold for an incredible prize. For me that are just 4 USB ports - should be that standard for a desktop PC?

I really like macOS as an operating system, I love to use it, but unfortunately Apple destroying it with no strategy in the Mac line. Mostly old hardware for too high prices.

There are no 9th Generation hardware out there for the consumer. It's all 8th gen and I'm seeing 8th gen hardware coming into the corporate sector as well. 9th gen hardware won't be seen in a commonplace fashion until Q2 2019.
 
When have Apple not charged higher than retail for memory, or storage upgrades? I don't buy the "if we complain they wont do it" angle.

What I said was more like 'if we don't complain they'll charge even more'...

If you believe Windows or Linux is a viable option for you, then this is a choice you can make.

If Apple take that attitude then, this time, maybe the Mac really is doomed (or has a rose-gold-tinted future as a luxury Facebook terminal for the fashion conscious). Hate to break it but, these days, unless you're committed to something like FCPX, Logic or XCode, Windows or Linux is a viable option for you and, odds are, you won't even have to change your primary application software.

I prefer MacOS, and don't mind paying some sort of premium to use it, but that's not a blank cheque - at some point, the balance tips and having the right hardware for the job becomes more productive than having a slightly nicer GUI.
 
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