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Ok so why couldn't they put an extra m.2 slot for NVMe SSDs together with the soldered one? Plenty of ultrabook vendors do that with much more space constraint. So you don't have to rely on external storage when you realize you're screwed with 128GB in 2019 and can still load applications on something that can't be plugged off generating system errors.

Waiting for the apologetic answers
You can plug in any USB-C or Thunderbolt drives which will be almost as fast. And no internal storage constraints and no heating issues. Easy and cheap.
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I’ve just started shooting and editing video in fcpx. Currently using a 2015 15” i7qc mbp with 16gb ram/ssd HD. First project, dove in head first with 4K...seat of my pants. My mbp struggled but I got it done.

I will be purchasing a new 6 core mini and will upgrade ram 3rd party to 32gb. My question is to all the video people here: With all this talk of eGPU’s;using fcpx,will the new mini’s gpu be sufficient to do a simple 5 to 6 min 4K video? A few dissolves/fades and beginning and ending titles and imbedded music: maybe one or two video fx, but nothing crazy.

Thanks in advance.

You are buying a lowest possible specced mac computer without graphic card. Don't expect any miracles with 4K video, even powerful desktops with lots of fast storage and graphic cards will struggle with 4K footage. So be realistic.
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I think the concern is that 128GB sounds a bit tight even if you're planning to just use it for system/apps/temporary files and hook up an external drive for everything else. (E.g. a full Logic Pro install is ~60GB on its own, lots of other creative apps will work best if their temporary/working files directory is on the fastest drive and for good performance you don't ever want your system drive to get even close to full).

Likewise, the 8GB RAM on the i5 hex core model is a bit tight for the sort of applications that would justify choosing it over the quad core. The price difference between 8GB and 16GB in SODIMM form is about $70 consumer retail so don't pretend that charging $200 for the upgrade is anything but "money for nothing" for Apple.

So, for many customers, the realistic entry prices for both models with adequate SSD and RAM respectively are more like $1000 for quad core and $1300 for hex core unless you're really, really sure that the base specs meet your needs and you don't need any "headroom". Nobody is telling you what you can or can't buy or pay - but calling Apple's upgrades expensive and their base configurations mean is fair comment.

Its one thing to ask a premium for your products because of their perceived quality and superiority - but when your headline sticker prices turn out to be for configurations that are barely adequate without substantial upgrades, expect to be criticised for it. Also, it could backfire long term if people buy the base configuration and then find it inadequate.

Simple. If you want install huge apps like Logic Pro with all plugins or FCPX with all plugins, then don't buy 128GB version, it is as simple as that. Though one can put FCPX library on an external drive and leave the main 128GB to OS and apps only. Not sure if the user library can be fully moved to external storage, probably ok
 
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You can plug in any USB-C or Thunderbolt drives which will be almost as fast. And no internal storage constraints and no heating issues. Easy and cheap.
Easy, yes. Cheap, well, maybe not so much for a good performing solution.
 
Well, you'd have to check how many PCIe lanes you had free - there's a limited number and Apple have used up quite a lot by including 2 Thunderbolt controllers (for 4 TB ports). I'm not sure that's the reason on the Mini (which doesn't spend 16 PCIe lanes on a dGPU) - but you'd need to ask someone who actually understands motherboard design and the technical details of the Intel chipsets in question.

However, although the Mac Mini case was originally built to hold various permutations of spinning rust, SATA SSDs and optical drives, past Minis have used mobile CPUs - I think this time round Apple have filled the available space with cooling gubbins so that they can use desktop-class CPUs. Finding space for M.2. might be tight - making it user accessible even harder.

Of course, nobody held a gun to Apple's head and forced them to build the new Mini into the old box designed for the optical disc and mobile CPU era - they could have thought different and designed the whole thing around user-accessible RAM and SSD - but tooling up for those solid aluminium cases costs money.

...which brings up the final reason: a user-accessible M.2. slot would mean that Apple couldn't charge 3x the going rate for SSD upgrades - and since they charge a similar mark-up on bog standard RAM SODIMMs there's no reason that a non-user-accessible M.2. would lead to cheaper upgrades.

I think the point of the Mini is that, if you need substantial storage, you'll keep the super-fast internal SSD for system/apps/temp and get one of those nice matching 3rd party external drives designed to stack with a Mac Mini that were readily available until... er... oh, wait, until Apple released the underpowered 2014 Mini and then let it wither for 4 years and killed the demand. Still, they'll hopefully come back (in Space Grey and loaded with TB3/USB 3.1g2 goodness) now.

The 256GB SSD is probably the "sweet spot" - my main beef is that the 128GB on the entry level quad core is a bit small even for system/app/temp if you're talking about "pro" apps (if you're going to justify the $300 jump over the previous Mini by it now being "pro").

All three CPUs have x16 PCIe lanes, with x4 times 2 Thunderbolt 3 controllers, so that eats up x8 lanes there and at least x4 for the NVMe storage, although because to the way Intel advertises hows it allows the OEM to carve up the lanes, I think Apple has to use the remaining x8 lanes - https://ark.intel.com/products/134905/Intel-Core-i7-8700B-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4-60-GHz- - which I suspect they use anyways with the T2 chip versus x4 previously, which may have allowed Apple to add the HEVC Transcoding (which I suspect is just a link to the QuickSync hardware in the CPU), while the 300-Series chipset connects to the CPU via DMI 3.0.

Taking into account the 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, adding a dGPU would have eaten the other x8 lanes of PCIe as it does with the 15” MacBook Pro, forcing the T2 to run storage through the DMI 3.0 bus from the chipset to the CPU, which I really would rather it not do even if that means running an eGPU via a Thunderbolt port. Storage has almost always been my priority, even over GPU, because even weak CPUs can benefit from super fast storage storage as up until recently, the market has not seen those kind of storage speeds being shipped by default, at least not on the PC side.

No, nobody held a gun to Apple’s head to use the same chassis, but a Mac mini would not be a mini if it was made much larger and I am not even sure we would have gotten a new mini if it meant new CNC milling, instead of simply re-painting the existing chassis. It won’t surprise me if this was a condition of developing a new mini.

A user-accessible M.2 slot would mean that there would be no T2 chip in the Mac mini as Apple created its own SSD controller. Besides, giving users the option of adding their own m.2 is a bad idea all the way around. Apple would never allowed that to be used as a system drive, it that would be a recipe for disaster given the relative newness of APFS and the different levels of NVMe storage out there that would give disparate experiences. Intel makes great SSD, but a 600p NVMe doesn’t give very good Write performance. On top of which, Apple would need to write the NVMe drivers to work with the different controllers that exist. No one would follow Apple’s recommendations on what to buy and what not to buy, resulting in more tech support calls, inconsistent experience and the real possibility of data loss. Doing what they do now lowers that possibility dramatically and ensures a consistent experience speed-wise.

Yes, Apple charges too much for their upgrades, but it is not 3x too much, not given what Apple is trying to do with storage and the T2 chip.
 
I think it is time to end thinking about mini as a cheap and slow entry computer into Mac line.
It is now simply a small and quite powerful computer which just happened to reuse old Mini case. It can now have a lot of RAM, has bluetooth, wifi, thunderbol, USB3, and can have external GPU which we dreamed for the headless Mac and, you can update that GPU at your will.
So all complaints about price are quite misdirected.
 
Mmmm, interesting. I can't recall but did the other guy have an i3 model with only 4 cores? Can't recall.
No, he was showing off the more powerful i7. A complete disservice to people who bought that one expecting it to run cool and quiet under load.
 
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You can plug in any USB-C or Thunderbolt drives which will be almost as fast. And no internal storage constraints and no heating issues. Easy and cheap.
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You are buying a lowest possible specced mac computer without graphic card. Don't expect any miracles with 4K video, even powerful desktops with lots of fast storage and graphic cards will struggle with 4K footage. So be realistic.
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Simple. If you want install huge apps like Logic Pro with all plugins or FCPX with all plugins, then don't buy 128GB version, it is as simple as that. Though one can put FCPX library on an external drive and leave the main 128GB to OS and apps only. Not sure if the user library can be fully moved to external storage, probably ok

USB-C is capped at 10Gbps using Gen2, and those solutions are fast, but not the fastest. None of them are pushing 3.2GB/s that I know of right now. Even Samsung’s X5 Thunderbolt 3 solution at 2,800MB/s Read/2,300MB/s Write is still not as fast, but is closer. Of course, a 1TB model is $700.00 and the 2TB model is $1,400.00. That being said, I do not have an complaints about speed using my Sandisk Extreme Portable 500GB.

I do not think anyone is expecting miracles in 4K, but it can be done just fine, especially if you’re use proxy media in Final Cut Pro X. Premiere might not even be that bad if you are using the latest version (CC 2019)

Plenty of video have people working with 4K using Proxy Media on a 12” MacBook, so not ideal, but enough to get started and then a user can move to an eGPU should they need better rendering performance in the future.

No, the 128GB is not ideal for any sort of large Final Cut Pro X or Logic Pro X installs.
 
MacOS itself makes considerable use of the GPU so its pretty essential that the iGPU can cope with rendering the GUI across a couple of 4k displays. Still waiting for confirmation that the Intel iGPU can handle a pair of 4k@60Hz displays in scaled "looks like 2560x1440" mode (i.e. 5k downsampled by the GPU to 4k and roughly the "sweet spot" for a 27" display - same system text/icon size you'd get on an iMac - but potentially more demanding than 5k alone) well enough to give a smooth experience in regular apps. Needing a $700 eGPU fot serious 3D work is one thing, needing it to run a pair of 4k displays at the most popular scales would be disappointing.

Hopefully, Apple have thought about that and its OK - but this iGPU really is designed as entry level for Windows where 5k displays are rare and "scaled mode" isn't a thing (Windows can actually adjust the scaling system used by the system and applications to make text and icons bigger on a higher-PPI display... and if you're lucky all of your applications understand that - the Mac system is debatably better but does hit the GPU harder).

We'll see.
I do not disagree with you there...I run my SW271 scaled at 2560x1440.

Also, I have a 2015 15” MacBook Pro with just the Iris Pro 5200 that runs 4K at 60Hz just fine scaled plus the internal display. Two 4K might be stretching it a bit, but it runs the 15” Retina and the 4K pretty well.

I do wish that Intel had not given up in Iris Pro GT3/GT3e (128MB), but too late for that now.

Windows 10 scaling is horrid compared to macOS, but your point about driving a 5K is well taken.

I have to think that Apple evaluated the 28w U, 45w H and the Kaby Lake-G (goodness knows they had plenty of time) and found the 65w S to be the best trade off. Lots of people will call BS, but Apple does look at these things closely. They are formally supporting one 5K and two 4K up to more than DCI 4K, so I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Like you said, we’ll see.
 
You’re right, two at 4096x2304 and 1 via HDMI at DCI 4K@60Hz. Thanks for keeping me honest!

I've been hoping that this means 2@4K should be pretty smooth, even if 3@4K might push the limits when scaled.

Like you said, he said, we'll see.
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I am hoping that there is DisplayPort 1.2 MST support.

It'd be nice if there is - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206587 hasn't been updated since February and I haven't had a response about it from the @Applesupport twitter account (they possibly lost the Q as I asked about an S/MIME bug too, and they got caught up trying to organise a phone call)

I'm not holding my breath (or dollars, I've bought an OWC TB3 to Dual DP adapter in advance) for it to work though.
 
I am hoping that there is DisplayPort 1.2 MST support.
I have never found Apple to be very interested in
I've been hoping that this means 2@4K should be pretty smooth, even if 3@4K might push the limits when scaled.

Like you said, he said, we'll see.
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It'd be nice if there is - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206587 hasn't been updated since February and I haven't had a response about it from the @Applesupport twitter account (they possibly lost the Q as I asked about an S/MIME bug too, and they got caught up trying to organise a phone call)

I'm not holding my breath (or dollars, I've bought an OWC TB3 to Dual DP adapter in advance) for it to work though.
3x4K at UltraHD resolution is 24.9 million pixels, which is nothing to sneeze at, although I would not expect it to be smooooooth, especially at scaled resolutions simply because the tiles are so large. I would argue that at a pure @2x “Best for Display” setting, that each display will functions just fine.

I assume that MST over DisplayPort means that you want to be able to daisychain the displays together to have a single cable instead of using two ports for two displays?
 
although I would not expect it to be smooooooth,
Right - as I said, my hope is that if 3x is 'passable', 2x (what I'm planning to do) will be a lot more likely to be fine.

I assume that MST over DisplayPort means that you want to be able to daisychain the displays together to have a single cable instead of using two ports for two displays?

That was my plan. The Dell 2415Q supports it (once enabled) but I needed to buy a USB-C to DP adapter of some kind anyway, so the OWC jobbie seemed like a safe bet. I will still try it though, and report back.
 
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Right - as I said, my hope is that if 3x is 'passable', 2x (what I'm planning to do) will be a lot more likely to be fine.



That was my plan. The Dell 2415Q supports it (once enabled) but I needed to buy a USB-C to DP adapter of some kind anyway, so the OWC jobbie seemed like a safe bet. I will still try it though, and report back.

I thought so, I tried it with my 2015 15” MacBook Pro and the two Dell 2715Qs I have at work a couple of years ago, but it just would not work. Hopefully some progress has been made in this area.
 
You can plug in any USB-C or Thunderbolt drives which will be almost as fast. And no internal storage constraints and no heating issues. Easy and cheap.
You can do it (connect external drive) with all computers. The option to add internal drive is pretty handy too and Mini does not offer it. Lack of this option actually devalues the efforts made to minimize the case size. Mini with external drive instantly becomes Maxi.
 
I thought so, I tried it with my 2015 15” MacBook Pro and the two Dell 2715Qs I have at work a couple of years ago, but it just would not work. Hopefully some progress has been made in this area.

I saw a post on one of the StackExchange sites (I think?) claiming it's purely a software issue, as the same hardware booted into Windows worked with MST fine - and that was a few years ago (they referenced macOS 10.10 I think)
 
You can do it (connect external drive) with all computers. The option to add internal drive is pretty handy too and Mini does not offer it. Lack of this option actually devalues the efforts made to minimize the case size. Mini with external drive instantly becomes Maxi.
I chose a Sandisk Extreme Portable to use with my 2016 MacBook Pro and it works great while retaining a very small footprint...certainly not invisible, but very unobtrusive.
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I saw a post on one of the StackExchange sites (I think?) claiming it's purely a software issue, as the same hardware booted into Windows worked with MST fine - and that was a few years ago (they referenced macOS 10.10 I think)
I think I encountered it with El Capitan, but am still on High Siera on my work computer, so need to test it under Mojave and my 2016 MacBook Pro. Also, need to update from HS as it is truly a miserable experience with all its various quirks.
 
I have to think that Apple evaluated the 28w U, 45w H and the Kaby Lake-G (goodness knows they had plenty of time) and found the 65w S to be the best trade off. Lots of people will call BS, but Apple does look at these things closely.

That's what I hope/expect - but Apple are, I think, suffering from the constrains of what Intel offers (particularly in its GPU/CPU permutations) as well as constraints of their own making (in this case, they were clearly determined to fit it all in the same case).

From Intel's POV, the desktop chips don't warrant much of a GPU because they're either going into machines with PCIe dGPUs or basic home/office desktops which are more likely than not going to run standard HD displays. We're all getting excited about quad or hex cores in a Mini but the entire current 8th-gen "Core i" desktop range starts at 4 core for the i3 and hex core for the i5.

As you said I said - we'll see. The beloved 2012 Minis had worse GPUs - but we didn't all have 4k displays back then and certainly didn't expect them run in "scaled" mode which was effectively 5k, internally.
 
which was effectively 5k, internally.
This is why I’m hoping 24” 4K will be less problematic. I currently run a 15” retina at the higher “more space” setting, so I’ll likely use some scaling on 24, but i don’t know that I’ll need to go that high because it’s physically smaller.

As you said he said you said and I said he said you said, we’ll see.
 
This is why I’m hoping 24” 4K will be less problematic.

Yeah, "looks like 1920x1080" would be about right on a 24" and that should be easier on the GPU because its straight pixel-doubling. Wish someone would do a ~24" 16:10 screen at a retina-like resolution instead of all these letterboxy 16:9 ones...

Looking at the other thread - the RAM upgrade looks tedious, but straightforward and "non-destructive" - Wouldn't want to do it fresh out if the box, but I'd certainly consider it for a mid-life boost once the warranty was up, which would make me happier to start with the 16GB BTO and not worry about getting 32GB for "future proofing".
 
No, he was showing off the more powerful i7. A complete disservice to people who bought that one expecting it to run cool and quiet under load.
It just seemed odd to not show a power meter or graphic in the youtube video but you're right he's doing a disservice if the numbers are plain wrong. Some people could make buying decisions based on this directly such as me. I don't want a high watt using Mini under idle or low utilization as my Mini is on 24x7.
 
Geekbench 4 scores have been posted for all three (3) models - http://browser.geekbench.com/macs/434

Hard to argue that these things are underpowered, even the Core i3 which is now within striking distance of my Late 2013 Core i7 iMac in multi core and bests it soundly in single core. For so many people the Core i3 is plenty, but the Core i5 will last the average user at least 5-7 years and the Core i7 is simply icing on the cake, unless Intel has some quantum breakthrough in store for us on December 11th.
 
It just seemed odd to not show a power meter or graphic in the youtube video but you're right he's doing a disservice if the numbers are plain wrong. Some people could make buying decisions based on this directly such as me. I don't want a high watt using Mini under idle or low utilization as my Mini is on 24x7.
Read hoang77 and archer75's reports here. The i7 hits the 100 ceiling and throttles by as much as 800 mhz.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-mini-3-2ghz-i7-temps.2153133/

My i5 is going back after I get it.
 
Where did you find the information on the TB3? I would like to read this.
Honestly I'm not 100% sure now. I follow a range of tech journos and pundits on Twitter. I'm pretty sure it was from someone like Marco Arment or Steve Troughton Smith and was from the press event or subsequent hands-on session. It might have been Marco in a recent atp.fm podcast.
 
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