Mac mini and audio 24-bit / 192kHz

[F-Train]

with headphones the left and right channels are isolated but room effects are eliminated

The whole point of open back headphones is that they do not eliminate the sound of a room.

Oh, just spend the money and get something truly excellent like the Lynx Hilo.
...
Stop buying junk; save up your money and get real engineering and performance.

Thanks for explaining to me that my Sound Devices audio interface is junk. I'll pass on eating this month so that I can purchase a Lynx Hilo [US$2300 (USB)/$2600 (Thunderbolt] and join the audiophile elite.

 

[msh]

The whole point of open back headphones is that they do not eliminate the sound of a room.

This is not the same thing as speakers in a room.
[doublepost=1544391265][/doublepost]

Thanks for explaining to me that my Sound Devices audio interface is junk. I'll pass on eating this month so that I can purchase a Lynx Hilo [US$2300 (USB)/$2600 (Thunderbolt] and join the audiophile elite.

I know nothing and make no judgements about your Sound Devices interface. I merely presented an alternative to that shiilt dac should one decide to save one's money for something better. Actually if you look at all the functions of the Lynx and the strong likelihood that you will never outgrow it it is not all that expensive in relative terms. I have found with so many things that it is actually cheaper (not to mention more satisfying) in the long term to buy higher quality albeit more expensive items than to continually replace lesser items that never really perform well.

BTW, the Lynx is not aimed at the audiophile elite market but at the professional one. And I don't automatically disdain "elite" things as long as they have real engineering and performance. Actually a lot of people think anything Apple is "elite" which you seem to have bought into. And your whining about money on an Apple forum is, uh, rich especially since you have spent quite a lot on eGPUs.

 

[OLDGUYWITHAHIFI]

I am not sure if you are only interested in output audio, but if you do any sort of recording or voiceovers you could also use something like the M-Audio M-Track 2x2. It records and monitors up to 192/24 and plugs in using USB-C.

So with the latest Mini you could plug it right into USB-C. It has 1/4" outputs that I run into a set of Mackies. Sounds pretty good to me. I use it more for just audio output and music more than anything else. It's only about $100 US.

https://m-audio.com/m-tracks/2x2

 

[F-Train]

I am not sure if you are only interested in output audio, but if you do any sort of recording or voiceovers you could also use something like the M-Audio M-Track 2x2. It records and monitors up to 192/24 and plugs in using USB-C.

So with the latest Mini you could plug it right into USB-C. It has 1/4" outputs that I run into a set of Mackies. Sounds pretty good to me. I use it more for just audio output and music more than anything else. It's only about $100 US.

https://m-audio.com/m-tracks/2x2

I think that @Maccotto has found a solution (see post #18) but your post brings back good memories. When I started recording sound to a computer, an earlier version of your M-Audio was my first purchase. It's a bargain at US$100, and unlike its most immediate Focusrite competitor can be used to record midi.
[doublepost=1544396621][/doublepost]

This is not the same thing as speakers in a room.
[doublepost=1544391265][/doublepost]
I know nothing and make no judgements about your Sound Devices interface. I merely presented an alternative to that shiilt dac should one decide to save one's money for something better. Actually if you look at all the functions of the Lynx and the strong likelihood that you will never outgrow it it is not all that expensive in relative terms. I have found with so many things that it is actually cheaper (not to mention more satisfying) in the long term to buy higher quality albeit more expensive items than to continually replace lesser items that never really perform well.

BTW, the Lynx is not aimed at the audiophile elite market but at the professional one. And I don't automatically disdain "elite" things as long as they have real engineering and performance. Actually a lot of people think anything Apple is "elite" which you seem to have bought into. And your whining about money on an Apple forum is, uh, rich especially since you have spent quite a lot on eGPUs.

The person who started this thread is using speakers that cost US$162 ex VAT. Post #14 has a photograph of his studio space, in which any gear has to work.

Given the characteristics of his studio, I suggested that he consider headphones, in particular open back headphones, and suggested a couple of DACs that might meet his needs at a price that is in the same planetary system as the price of his speakers.

Your response has been to belittle headphones and recommend a DAC that costs US$2300 or $2600, in the process effectively branding less expensive DACS as "junk".

I use Apple computers and applications, including Logic Pro X, for reasons that have nothing to do with this discussion, and in particular nothing to do with your speculation about my reasons.

I hope that you enjoyed reading my posts on eGPUs.

 

[msh]

Those are fair points. I sometimes use a little hyperbole. Remember when Steve Jobs said Apple doesn't make junk implying that anything not Apple was junk. Well that was an exaggeration and so was my use of the term. But I really do hate buying cheap stuff and try to stretch where possible to get something better. And I am not belittling headphones; they have their uses for sure they are just not a substitute for free field speakers for me no matter the room.

Now, now it is easy to go off on tangents on these forums and that's ok (up to a point). You yourself started plugging some horn loaded speakers, right? He without sin - peace now. Oh and no current interest in eGPUs but if I become interested will checkout your comments.

 

[F-Train]

Those are fair points. I sometimes use a little hyperbole. Remember when Steve Jobs said Apple doesn't make junk implying that anything not Apple was junk. Well that was an exaggeration and so was my use of the term. But I really do hate buying cheap stuff and try to stretch where possible to get something better. And I am not belittling headphones; they have their uses for sure they are just not a substitute for free field speakers for me no matter the room.

Now, now it is easy to go off on tangents on these forums and that's ok (up to a point). You yourself started plugging some horn loaded speakers, right? He without sin - peace now. Oh and no current interest in eGPUs but if I become interested will checkout your comments.

Cool.

My post (#23) about Meyer Sound's Bluehorn speakers was in response to a post from @OLDGUYWITHAHIFI in which he talked about hearing a $50,000 hifi system. Neither his post nor my response had anything to do with the thread question, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that @Maccotto purchase Bluehorn speakers

The Bluehorn is a system that I heard at the AES (Audio Engineering Society) show in October that costs almost twice as much as the one that @OLDGUYWITHAHIFI heard.

Meyer set up the demo in a separate room from the main AES space. The demo was very well-organised, running about 20 minutes with about eight people hearing it at a time.

It is the best sounding system that I have ever personally heard.

In the real world, which means that I am not running a major film studio sound stage, or doing the sound engineering for John Powell (see post #23 again) or Hans Zimmer, I'm content with the speakers that I have.

 

[madrag]

I am not sure if you are only interested in output audio, but if you do any sort of recording or voiceovers you could also use something like the M-Audio M-Track 2x2. It records and monitors up to 192/24 and plugs in using USB-C.

So with the latest Mini you could plug it right into USB-C. It has 1/4" outputs that I run into a set of Mackies. Sounds pretty good to me. I use it more for just audio output and music more than anything else. It's only about $100 US.

https://m-audio.com/m-tracks/2x2

Could you please tell me if that interface (for audio output for the Mac) allows the control of the volume from the Mac? or does it only allow it to be controled via the knob of the interface?

I suppose I would need to put the m-tracks' volume on a sweet spot with the knob, and then control the audio via the OS, is this how it works? or is the volume control greyed out?

I'm very inclined to get that M-Audio; originally I was looking for a DAC, but now I'll go for an audio interface, which has the bonus of having inputs (I still have a Presonus Firestation, but it no longer can be connected, no drivers and no Firewire, but it's a great unit and the sound is supperb, although obviously I only use it for analogue).

I plan to use the M-tracks daily for the Mac output (and sometimes to record), that's why I'm asking about the volume control from the Mac.

 

[gages]

Finally got kbd volume control working for USB output to my NAD 3020.

https://staticz.com/soundcontrol/

You need to create a multi output device in the Midi config, using the virtual driver it creates for the USB output, then the kbd keys will work.

 

[thirdsun]

Finally got kbd volume control working for USB output to my NAD 3020.

https://staticz.com/soundcontrol/

You need to create a multi output device in the Midi config, using the virtual driver it creates for the USB output, then the kbd keys will work.

But why do you need that third party tool? Multi-device outputs are a native feature of macOS and once you create one you should be able to control it without additional tools.

On a sidenote: I‘d always prefer the hardware volume controls that your device offers. That way you can be sure that the audio signal is bitstreamed, not altered in any way and actually converted by your NAD amp/dac, which is a lovely device - let it do its work. It‘s not worth discussing whether one can notice an audible difference, but additional software volume controls lead in theory to a degradation of sound quality. The lack of volume controls for digital usb outputs is actually a feature.

 

[gages]

@thirdsun I could never get the kbd volume control to work for USB output without a 3rd party utility.

Come to think of it, how does that even work, as the USB output is digital out, how does the source vary the volume of a digital output?

 

[Ploki]

The whole point of open back headphones is that they do not eliminate the sound of a room.

It's not like it bleeds into the room enough to create a reflection and bleed back into the headphones tho.

The point is that the drivers are not compressed over your ear

 

[Maccotto]

Guys I don’t know if is a problem of the sound card or the Mac mini.
I am happy from Asus xonar u7mkii but I find 2 problem:
1) if I restart Mac or I unplug and plug in the xonar, the midi tools doesn’t find the all kHz frequency but only 44-48k. I need unplug and plug in the Asus xonar again for see all frequency.

2) the sound is great and definite but when I insert the mute (I tried into a game) I listen some interference in left speaker. is it a cable problem? (I use a good red-white output for connect xonar to edifier)

 

[Ploki]

no clue. Xonar is a pretty entry-level card and red/white is probably RCA unbalanced connection, so everything goes.

 

[HDFan]

What is the provenance of the source material? Was it digitally recorded at 24 bit/192 kHz? Some material which is labeled "hi res" is actually creating using lower resolution masters so their resolution is over stated. True hi-res tracks (such as those by Blue Coast records https://bluecoastrecords.com are expensive. This is changing with Tidal streaming MQA and Qobuz (which is just entering the U.S. market - maybe is available in Italy?). Let's not get into an MQA discussion.

Assuming that you want to maximize the sound quality/Euro ratio, I would

1. Get the best headphones that you can afford. Put most of your money there. There are obviously issues using headphones vs speakers, but if headphones meet your needs you get better bang for the buck. Just be aware that identically priced headphones may sound very different, as one might be tuned for pounding bass, another might be mellow, another might be tuned for totally balanced sound. I have gone through a lot of headphones (Bose, Sennheiser, multiple Grados, Oppo, Etymotic, ...) and they are all different. Ideally you can listen to some of your source material via various headphones before you make a decision. That's very difficult here in the U.S. There is a thread on MacRumors where a whole bunch of headphones were purchased and compared.

This guy has been professionally evaluating headphones in major publications for decades:

https://www.cnet.com/pictures/wowza-the-audiophiliac-picks-the-best-headphones-from-26-to-6000/

2. Just get a simple USB DAC, such as the Meridian Explorer, AudioQuest Dragonfly Red, or something similar. As funds become available then you can see if more expensive DAC's are worth it.

3. Speakers, room treatments can then follow as funds become available. You will also know what sound you are looking for and choose speakers accordingly. My speaker criteria, for example, was to duplicate the sound that I hear at performances at my local concert hall. Took a long time to accumulate the cash to purchase them (Goldenears), but they are well worth the $ and the years I spent finding the sound I wanted.

 

[thirdsun]

@thirdsun I could never get the kbd volume control to work for USB output without a 3rd party utility.

Come to think of it, how does that even work, as the USB output is digital out, how does the source vary the volume of a digital output?

It doesn‘t really. It can’t. Your USB output is playing at the same volume as before, but now there’s an additional software volume control in your signal path. That was my point actually: I‘d personally avoid software based volume settings like your tool provides. Just to make sure that a clean, unaltered signal reaches your DAC/Amp.
[doublepost=1545487988][/doublepost]

Guys I don’t know if is a problem of the sound card or the Mac mini.
I am happy from Asus xonar u7mkii but I find 2 problem:
1) if I restart Mac or I unplug and plug in the xonar, the midi tools doesn’t find the all kHz frequency but only 44-48k. I need unplug and plug in the Asus xonar again for see all frequency.

2) the sound is great and definite but when I insert the mute (I tried into a game) I listen some interference in left speaker. is it a cable problem? (I use a good red-white output for connect xonar to edifier)

I agree with Ploki‘s answer, but just to add another point worth checking out: Are you using a USB hub to connect your audio interface? I was surprised to notice audible noise and interference when I used my SPL Crimson interface with a cheap USB 2.0 Hub (in contrast to connecting it directly to the Mini).

 

[Maccotto]

It doesn‘t really. It can’t. Your USB output is playing at the same volume as before, but now there’s an additional software volume control in your signal path. That was my point actually: I‘d personally avoid software based volume settings like your tool provides. Just to make sure that a clean, unaltered signal reaches your DAC/Amp.
[doublepost=1545487988][/doublepost]

I agree with Ploki‘s answer, but just to add another point worth checking out: Are you using a USB hub to connect your audio interface? I was surprised to notice audible noise and interference when I used my SPL Crimson interface with a cheap USB 2.0 Hub (in contrast to connecting it directly to the Mini).

I tried some times and the usb hub was the problem.
Thanks a lot

 

[Maccotto]

News.
I decided to return back the Xonar because it has 2 great cons:
1) I hate split my headsets for connect to xonar
2) headphone volume is too low
3) sometimes I need plug and unplug because Mac mini reset the interface and it finds only 44-48 kHz.

Now what Dac can I buy ?
I need headphone ampli and a good sound for gaming and hires audio.
I don’t need anymore 192 but also 96khz could be good (24-32 bits are necessary).

I need also 100% compatibility with Mac .

Another question : how is the creative ampli x7?

My budget go up until 200€ if necessary for a good Dac model

 

[thirdsun]

News.
I decided to return back the Xonar because it has 2 great cons:
1) I hate split my headsets for connect to xonar
2) headphone volume is too low
3) sometimes I need plug and unplug because Mac mini reset the interface and it finds only 44-48 kHz.

Now what Dac can I buy ?
I need headphone ampli and a good sound for gaming and hires audio.
I don’t need anymore 192 but also 96khz could be good (24-32 bits are necessary).

I need also 100% compatibility with Mac .

Another question : how is the creative ampli x7?

My budget go up until 200€ if necessary for a good Dac model

At that price range, I‘d look at entry level studio audio interfaces - Focusrite‘s Scarlett series is a popular budget choice, just to name one option. Just have a look around at Sweetwater: https://www.sweetwater.com/shop/studio-recording/audio-interfaces/

I understand, you don‘t need the recording features, but those studio interfaces, even if cheap, are still solid, clean DACs that will be much more capable than the crap Asus or Creative tries to sell you as gaming audio system. You‘ll also avoid the high price tag of DACs targeted at audiophiles.

Additional note: Thunderbolt interfaces tend to be more expensive than USB, so you probably want to look in te latter category. Also, you can ignore the number of inputs (unless you actually do any recording), which drives cost down.

 

[Maccotto]

Thx a lot.
So the creative and Asus hardware are more bad then a simple Dac?

In this days I am tested m audio 2x2 and scarlet 2i2 second gen.
M-audio has more high volume gain and it is little nice with big knob, but sound is too mixed and flat.
Scarlet is nice and with a clear sound also if in the gaming I haven’t any sorround/3D effect?
I think will stay with scarlet but I wanna change with kit (Dac+mic+headphones) because the difference is 40€. Are good The headphone’s kit ?

8 January I will receive X7 creative ampli but if you tell me is bad, I will refuse the order (300€ vs 170 € scarlet kit)

 

[thirdsun]

Thx a lot.
So the creative and Asus hardware are more bad then a simple Dac?

In this days I am tested m audio 2x2 and scarlet 2i2 second gen.
M-audio has more high volume gain and it is little nice with big knob, but sound is too mixed and flat.
Scarlet is nice and with a clear sound also if in the gaming I haven’t any sorround/3D effect?
I think will stay with scarlet but I wanna change with kit (Dac+mic+headphones) because the difference is 40€. Are good The headphone’s kit ?

8 January I will receive X7 creative ampli but if you tell me is bad, I will refuse the order (300€ vs 170 € scarlet kit)

Maybe I‘m underestimating Creative and Asus, but I don‘t associate these brands with high quality audio equipment at all. To me that‘s colorful, gimmicky gaming hardware that happens to be better than your onboard audio hardware.

Of course I don‘t know about your particular preferences. The interfaces I recommended are pure DACs - not amplifiers, no 3D pseudo surround, no EQ boosts/enhancements.

 

[Maccotto]

The scarlet 2i1 has a problem.
Yesterday I left the Mac mini into stop mode, today I wakes up it and scarlet was disconnected . I need plug and unplug usb cable for wake up the scarlet .

Do you know this problem?

 

[gages]

I am using line out on my Mini (for now). Every few days after I haven't used the machine in a few hours, the output stops. I have to unplug and then replug the line out jack. I have all the sleep functions on the Mini disabled.

 

[Maccotto]

Today I will return backk scarlet.
It is a clean music and beautiful hardware but I hate plug and unplug it every morning. My Mac disconnect it every time I stop for some hours or all night.

Nobody can resolve this problem ?

 

[Maccotto]

What about topping D30 and simila Dsd? what are the difference with scarlett? (I know that topping hasn’t headphone jack)

 

[Chiromac81]

Yes, through an external audio interface via usb or thunderbolt that supports 192kHz.

What would be the best way after that to get the audio from the Mac mink with the external interface/DAC to a stereo receiver and amp in the other room 25 feet away where the speakers are located.

Btw it’s a NAD 758 with Anthem amp and monitor audio speakers and an Apple TV 4K.
What would be best cable or approach to do this?