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Ok. Well you can disagree that 23.976fps is incorrect, but 99.9% of movies AND TV source material (either on TV or on DVD/BD) is 23.976. Probably a good time to get used to it. :)

Excuse me for butting into this side conversation, but I've been reading it and find it confusing. The original film material (assuming it is a film source) is 24fps. Prior to NTSC with monochrome TV (in the US) the rate was 30fps (60i), and the 3:2 pulldown converts without problems. With NTSC the frame rate was lowered to 29.97 to allow bandwidth for the color information. The conversion was then done by slowing the film to 23.976 and doing the pulldown. So it seems to me that material with an original film source should actually be viewed at 24fps to be true to the original. Material with an original NTSC camera source should be viewed at 23.976. European DVDs would present a problem -- do they just run the film ~4.2% faster to match the 25fps frame rate? In which case they should be viewed at 24, not 25. And what are current frame rates being used since NTSC is obsolete? I noticed that my video cam is 29.97 (why?). I also noticed that the new broadcast standard allows both 24/30 and 23.976/29.97 but what is actually used? What does Bluray use since it doesn't have to drive NTSC receivers?
 
Excuse me for butting into this side conversation, but I've been reading it and find it confusing. The original film material (assuming it is a film source) is 24fps. Prior to NTSC with monochrome TV (in the US) the rate was 30fps (60i), and the 3:2 pulldown converts without problems. With NTSC the frame rate was lowered to 29.97 to allow bandwidth for the color information. The conversion was then done by slowing the film to 23.976 and doing the pulldown. So it seems to me that material with an original film source should actually be viewed at 24fps to be true to the original. Material with an original NTSC camera source should be viewed at 23.976. European DVDs would present a problem -- do they just run the film ~4.2% faster to match the 25fps frame rate? In which case they should be viewed at 24, not 25. And what are current frame rates being used since NTSC is obsolete? I noticed that my video cam is 29.97 (why?). I also noticed that the new broadcast standard allows both 24/30 and 23.976/29.97 but what is actually used? What does Bluray use since it doesn't have to drive NTSC receivers?

It's a valid question, and I'm not trying to start a debate on what's "right" and what's "wrong," but rather what "is."

What "is" is that Blu-rays and DVDs (99.9%) of the time (and excluding some oddities in a few Blu-ray releases from Japan/Australia etc..) are encoded at 23.976hz. So OUR SOURCE is the Blu-ray - at 23.976hz. The original FILM SOURCE will almost certainly have been 24.000hz - or in other words 24fps exactly, but that's not the source that we as consumers consumers have access to. 24.000hz is not NTSC standard by which all broadcasts (in the US) adhere to, and that's why we get 23.976hz. Is the difference tiny? Absolutely. Does it make a noticeable difference to playback of a movie? Nope (essentially slowed down 0.1% for NTSC). Would it make a difference in OS X? YEP! Because you'd eliminate the frame skip every 41.6 seconds that occurs by playing 23.976hz material at OS X 24p ( which as stated is 24.000hz, not the standard 23.976hz).

In an "ideal" world we'd get 24hz-recorded material on Blu-ray etc at exactly 24p (24.000hz). It's REALLY not a big deal since a lot of modern TVs and projectors can display at 23.976hz, and so the difference between the original movie when filmed and when you watch it at home at 23.976hz on a 23.976hz-capable display is at home is the movie is exactly 0.1% slowed down. The bigger deal is the Mac mini can't do 23.976hz, which in this day and age of home theater is a joke. It undermines a huge reason for having a mini if you're a movie nut (or TV nut, or DVD nut). (I say "ideal" because you also need to look at 23.976hz as being compatible with many other standards beyond US, which is why it's used - but that's another discussion).

So, for giggles, think of it this way (if I have my calculation right):

When I watch a 2 hour 24p Blu-ray movie (i.e. 23.976hz) on my 23.976hz-capable projector with my Windows 7 Intel NUC, it takes 2 hours to watch it. The source matches the output perfectly.

When I watch a 2 hour 24p Blu-ray movie (i.e. 23.976hz) on my 24.000hz-only-capable Mac mini
to my projector (which can also output at 24.000hz), there will be a skipped frame every 41.6 seconds. In a 2 hour movie that's 173 frames skipped. If we say that 173 frames = 7.2 seconds, if my math is correct you're actually skipping 7.2 seconds of the movie (albeit one frame at a time, every 41.6 seconds).

So, if you speed the movie up 0.1% to match the frame-rate of your Mac mini, you would actually finish that 2 hour movie 7.2 seconds before I do! So there you. There's an argument for using the Mac mini at 24.000hz. You can watch more movies than I can in the same period of time. :D

When it comes to PAL, there aren't actually very many 25p movies/TV shows out there. Every movie I've bought from the UK, for example, is a 24p disc (i.e. 23.976hz). But yes, it would be sped up ~4.2% faster if it were 25p material.
 
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By the time you buy a hard drive, memory, and operating system, a NUC is every bit as expensive as a comparable mini.

And I disagree strongly with your comments on OS X. There's no way I'd trust a windows machine to run reliably 24/7, as you want for a media machine. Windows is just too flaky and virus prone.

I tried a variety of linux machines before getting the mini. They were all incredibly frustrating, with software that was infuriatingly almost there, driver issues, and things breaking on updates. My mac is perfect. It plays everything I throw at it perfectly, does AirPlay, is easy to drive and look after, and is the quietest computer I've ever owned.

By the way, the Intel NUC comes standard with a 3-year warranty. Remember to factor that in. :)
 
Wait, why are you guys running the NUC with Windows? You can go with Linux and it will be as reliable than a mini...

I dabbled in OpenELEC for Plex Home Theater, and found a lot of things didn't work or had dodgy support for it. Windows was the path of least resistance and for my limited use case (i.e. Plex) it just works. That said, if you have the patience for it, Linux is certainly an alternative.
 
Mac Mini As A HTPC

^ why not a plain and simple ubuntu install? Kodi and plex both have repositories for ubuntu. I don't like the idea of openELEC.
 
^ why not a plain and simple ubuntu install? Kodi and plex both have repositories for ubuntu. I don't like the idea of openELEC.

It comes down to ease of setup with the NUC hardware. It's really not THAT simple unless you go the Windows route, and I didn't want to spend hours and hours tweaking the NUC to my liking. With Windows 7, it was about 60 minutes from receiving it - to installing the RAM, hard drive, OS, and Plex - done.
 
I'm thinking of going all digital for movies and music. I would like to know if the highend mac mini with the 2 TB FD upgrade is a good option?. I prefer to not stream music and movies.

I have a mini, but in my opinion it's way overkill for even a full-time HTPC. Instead, I picked up an ASUS Chromebox and installed Kodi on it. With that, I can stream from my Synology 214+ or from my favorite add-ons. It's tiny, matches all my home theater stuff and is very affordable. Just another option to consider.
 
I have a mini, but in my opinion it's way overkill for even a full-time HTPC. Instead, I picked up an ASUS Chromebox and installed Kodi on it. With that, I can stream from my Synology 214+ or from my favorite add-ons. It's tiny, matches all my home theater stuff and is very affordable. Just another option to consider.

Yep. The Chromebox is a great alternative!
 
I have a mini, but in my opinion it's way overkill for even a full-time HTPC. Instead, I picked up an ASUS Chromebox and installed Kodi on it. With that, I can stream from my Synology 214+ or from my favorite add-ons. It's tiny, matches all my home theater stuff and is very affordable. Just another option to consider.


I do that with a raspberry Pi.
 
What "is" is that Blu-rays and DVDs (99.9%) of the time (and excluding some oddities in a few Blu-ray releases from Japan/Australia etc..) are encoded at 23.976hz. So OUR SOURCE is the Blu-ray - at 23.976hz. The original FILM SOURCE will almost certainly have been 24.000hz - or in other words 24fps exactly, but that's not the source that we as consumers consumers have access to. 24.000hz is not NTSC standard by which all broadcasts (in the US) adhere to, and that's why we get 23.976hz. Is the difference tiny? Absolutely. Does it make a noticeable difference to playback of a movie? Nope (essentially slowed down 0.1% for NTSC). Would it make a difference in OS X? YEP! Because you'd eliminate the frame skip every 41.6 seconds that occurs by playing 23.976hz material at OS X 24p ( which as stated is 24.000hz, not the standard 23.976hz).

Well I'm more concerned with the original source material and can I get back to that. Seems to me that if it were film I'd want to play it back at 24fps so it would have the original playing time (playing time is longer than it should be once converted to NTSC rates). If it were originally NTSC video I'd want to play it back at 23.976. So OS X would have the skipping issue for TV but not for movies.

Complicating matters, and part of my original question, is (a) what rate are modern TV shows recorded (b) played in this post NTSC age? (b) what rate are modern movies recorded? The digital broadcast standard allows for either rate.

I also have a large collection of Region 2 (Europe) DVDs for TV shows and some movies. They are all 25fps, I just verified with a few of different vintages of source material -- 1970's to current. As far as I know OS X must be able to play them at 25fps as skipping would be very obvious, unless it is playing them slower at 24fps. Looks like some measuring is in order (does the real playback time match what is recorded?) Again, if the original source was film and the playback is actually 24fps then everything would be fine again (at least for movies but not for TV shows for which the speedup would be intentional).
 
Well I'm more concerned with the original source material and can I get back to that. Seems to me that if it were film I'd want to play it back at 24fps so it would have the original playing time (playing time is longer than it should be once converted to NTSC rates). If it were originally NTSC video I'd want to play it back at 23.976. So OS X would have the skipping issue for TV but not for movies.

Complicating matters, and part of my original question, is (a) what rate are modern TV shows recorded (b) played in this post NTSC age? (b) what rate are modern movies recorded? The digital broadcast standard allows for either rate.

I also have a large collection of Region 2 (Europe) DVDs for TV shows and some movies. They are all 25fps, I just verified with a few of different vintages of source material -- 1970's to current. As far as I know OS X must be able to play them at 25fps as skipping would be very obvious, unless it is playing them slower at 24fps. Looks like some measuring is in order (does the real playback time match what is recorded?) Again, if the original source was film and the playback is actually 24fps then everything would be fine again (at least for movies but not for TV shows for which the speedup would be intentional).

Why are you more concerned about the original source material? We have no access to that. Your ACTUAL source (if we stick with USA) is TV broadcast, Blu-ray and DVD. Aside from some oddities, it's all 23.976hz. In the cinema you're seeing 24.000hz. But that's irrelevant. You can't get back to that at home. So you should be aiming for 23.976hz. OS X has the skipping issue every 41.6 seconds on both TV and Blu-ray.

Modern TV shows are recorded at 23.976hz or 24hz (depending on what cameras/settings they used). Either way, they're 23.976hz when you receive them at home.

I'm not sure about 25hz material, as any TV shows from the UK I play my projector switches to 50hz and does 2:2 pulldown for smooth playback. To play back 25hz on a 60hz display there's some more complicated conversion/pulldown going on as far as I'm aware.
 
Most broadcasters in the US are 1080i ...

Interpret that as you like. ;)

Not sure what needs interpreting? That's resolution, not refresh rate.

----------

Yes, the original material (film) is 24fps. Most digital recording is at 24fps. But to make it basically impossible... some stuff is actually recorded at 23.976 but the time code inserted is 24fps. So you THINK it is 24fps... but you don't KNOW. I think this only happens in the TV world (and low budget movies recorded with TV equipment).


For me, 24fps is the standard and my Mini fits in, I mostly watch classic films. I play back the BDROM rips at 24Hz (not by doing a 999:1 pulldown, by playing it at that rate with a 0.1% change in audio pitch... it's just a flag to change). They're my rips so I can change the time coding easily, so I do get back close to the original material.

First, MOST movies/TV shows are 23.976hz with time codes for 23.976hz. 24fps is not the standard for home use. 23.976fps is. You're having to modify your files to fit your NON-standard refresh rate output by the mini. Yeah. That means it's not standard. Period. The end.

Yes, like I mentioned earlier, you can speed up the playback if you want, but there can be some skewed audio side-effects of this, and even aside from that it's much simpler to just have a display device that matches the source in front of you.

Anyway, I think I'm done here. I've gone as far as I'm willing to in this discussion. Enjoy your mini.
 
While writing this I just texted three people in the industry that I know from my work in the industry, because time has passed since I worked in it. They are at Lucasfilm, Disney, and Pixar. They confirmed to me that they film/record at 24fps. Most movies at 4K, most TV at 2K. This is with Sony and Arri equipment... Not known to me is RED or Canon. You can believe what you want.

This would tell me I want to play back at 24 even if was slowed to 23.976 to transfer to a DVD. Do you know if broadcast TV is now actually 60i? Sure would make sense.

Now all I need to do is figure out what my Region 2 (25fps) DVD material actually plays at -- I'll do some actual measurements maybe tonight.
 
Most (not all but most) movies shot digitally in the USA today are shot at 23.976, edited at 23.976, then sped up .1% to get 24p for digital cinema projection. For TV, DVD and Bluray delivery they are left at 23.976.

I work in sound on motion pictures and we have to make certain what we record will sync to camera. 99% of the time our recorders are running at 23.976.

The Hobbit was shot at 47.952
 
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I have no idea who to believe now... maybe the people I asked have a different idea of what "most" means. Then again I know they still occasionally use film in their workflow.

There's nobody here you need to "believe." All you need to know is Blu-ray/DVD and TV shows (as a general rule) are encoded at 23.976hz, or 23.976fps. You can google that for yourself. Cinema is 24fps exactly. So when it hits our TV screens on Blu-ray etc it's slowed down 0.1% to hit that 23.976fps. That change is absolutely imperceptible when played on a 23.976hz-capable device/display, but it means that when you play said 23.976fps material on a Mac mini set to 24p (which is 24.000hz, there are issues). Some people don't care that their media skips ~170 times in a 2 hour movie. I do. It's not acceptable.

That is all. It's not disputable. You can google "Mac mini 24p" if you need more help. I've been dealing with this first-hand for YEARS, and have helped/questioned the Plex team about to how to make the Mac mini work - numerous times. This is not a new issue.

Here's a thread I created in early 2014 about the issue on the Plex message boards:

https://forums.plex.tv/index.php/topic/105323-oe-the-mac-mini-intel-nuc-dilemma/

And here's another thread on the issue, with someone else asking how to fix the 41.6 second judder:

http://www.reddit.com/r/PleX/comments/26s7w1/plex_macmini_and_24p/

And another thread on the matter, with a link to Anandtech explaining the issue, as well:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=109511

I don't know what else I can do to convince you. :)
 
Most common frame rates are 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97, 29.97DF, 30, 30DF.

Film is usually shot at an even frame rate, usually 24 for sync sound, but sometimes 25. (There are some offspeed frame rates for effects, we don't always roll sound for those.) But, there really isn't very much film being shot any more, it's more digital every day and most of that is 23.976. In the past 3 or 4 years it has practically disappeared on movies sets. Digital is faster and cheaper and many of the things that make film look like film can be added in post.

But back to what started all this, the fact OSX doesn't support 24p is a non-issue. Very little available content is delivered that way. I love my Mac Mini connected to my TV.
 
Most common frame rates are 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97, 29.97DF, 30, 30DF.

Film is usually shot at an even frame rate, usually 24 for sync sound, but sometimes 25. (There are some offspeed frame rates for effects, we don't always roll sound for those.) But, there really isn't very much film being shot any more, it's more digital every day and most of that is 23.976. In the past 3 or 4 years it has practically disappeared on movies sets. Digital is faster and cheaper and many of the things that make film look like film can be added in post.

But back to what started all this, the fact OSX doesn't support 24p is a non-issue. Very little available content is delivered that way. I love my Mac Mini connected to my TV.

Wait... what? What do you mean very little available content is "delivered" that way? :eek: I have a huge number of my Blu-rays/DVDs and TV Shows on my server, and pretty much every single one of them is 23.976hz, not 24z, just like you said!
 
I didn't read the entire thread, I'm using a base mini (late 14) as Media Centre and I'm very happy with it, even play few 4k content w/o frame drop, I don't play Dvd or BD on it only downloaded content or streamed, I don't care the fps since it's very strange some content to be faster that 30fps (top fps output at 4K for the HD5000 gpu) media player use to handle the task to sync content to hardware capabilities when exceed frame rate, but otherwise it's at the GPU where the frame are "drop" (actually the content it's rendered at 23.976/29.97/24/30/48/60 at the gpu memory but the output render circuit read this memory asynchronous at 30fps or whatever is the monitor refresh set) so all the discussion about the content fps and the mini capabilities it's absolutely irrelevant.

What actually happens when you render asynchronous content is that at some frame count if your have super eyes you'll see a frame being rendered partially when the next frame becomes fills the rest.
 
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