Mac mini M1 - only 48KHz audio?

[marstan]

Well, those look like proprietary Apple video wrapper files no doubt with DRM encryption. They are probably not music files that any non-Apple player would recognize. I don't know if there is any way to convert or extract them to standard music files. Assumming you are running the same OS on each mini, if you could play these files at different sample rates on the Intel mini vs the M1 mini, then maybe Apple has got some kind of new firmware code embedded in the M1 motherboard to lock down or limit sample rates for these kinds of files. I do not know. Ask Apple.

 

[vddobrev]

Where did you get those movpkg files?

From Apple music - that is what you get when you have subscription and you download lossless or hi-res lossless.

 

[vddobrev]

Well, those look like proprietary Apple video wrapper files no doubt with DRM encryption. They are probably not music files that any non-Apple player would recognize. I don't know if there is any way to convert or extract them to standard music files. Assumming you are running the same OS on each mini, if you could play these files at different sample rates on the Intel mini vs the M1 mini, then maybe Apple has got some kind of new firmware code embedded in the M1 motherboard to lock down or limit sample rates for these kinds of files. I do not know. Ask Apple.

Running the same OS on both - Mac OS Monterey. It is not like the playback sample rate is locked down on the M1 mini, I can play any file. However, in the M1 Audio MIDI Setup, the only available rate is 48KHz, meaning everything is re-sampled to 48KHz, see:

M1 mini:

2014 Intel Mac mini:

 

[marstan]

What is the actual sample rate of your downloaded files?

Just because you have selected 192k in your 2014 mini audio midi setup doesn't mean your files are actually encoded at 192k. They may actually only be 48k but, by selecting 192k in audio midi setup, you are either instructing the system to upsample them to 192k which gains you nothing or 192k is simply the highest allowable rate and the system is actually sending the music stream at 48k or 96k or whatever it is actually encoded at. Maybe the M1 audio midi setup is limiting you to only 48k because that is what the files are actually encoded at. Even though you are using same OS on both Intel and M1 there most likely are differences in the code for each platform - perhaps the functionality of audio midi setup is different in Monterey for the M1 than Intel.

In order to isolate the problem you should play non-DRM audio files in various sample rates in standard formats (.wav .aif .m4a etc) through a music player other than iTunes and see how audio midi setup reacts.

 

[vddobrev]

What is the actual sample rate of your downloaded files?

Just because you have selected 192k in your 2014 mini audio midi setup doesn't mean your files are actually encoded at 192k. They may actually only be 48k but, by selecting 192k in audio midi setup, you are either instructing the system to upsample them to 192k which gains you nothing or 192k is simply the highest allowable rate and the system is actually sending the music stream at 48k or 96k or whatever it is actually encoded at. Maybe the M1 audio midi setup is limiting you to only 48k because that is what the files are actually encoded at. Even though you are using same OS on both Intel and M1 there most likely are differences in the code for each platform - perhaps the functionality of audio midi setup is different in Monterey for the M1 than Intel.

In order to isolate the problem you should play non-DRM audio files in various sample rates in standard formats (.wav .aif .m4a etc) through a music player other than iTunes and see how audio midi setup reacts.

My music collection is entirely Apple Music lossless or hi-res lossless, and rate varies from album to album - 44.1KHz, 48.0KHz, 96.0KHz, 176.4KHz, and 192.0KHz. This is why I have selected the highest 192KHz.

The M1 is not limiting to 48KHz based on the file played - I am trying with music that is 192KHz. It simply is a hardware limitation, and that is what this thread is all about.

Audio MIDI Setup does not react to the file played, it simply presents the available rates, which it determines by: 1) What the receiver is capable of playing/accepting; 2) What the Mac is capable of outputting.

 

[marstan]

Well, then you need to try some different software to isolate the problem and/or call Apple.

 

[vddobrev]

Well, then you need to try some different software to isolate the problem and/or call Apple.

Thanks for the help and comments, appreciated! I guess I am all in on Apple Musing iCloud Library for the convenience of the music being available on all my devices.

So then, the M1 mini is what it is...

 

[marstan]

So far, it seems all we have learned is that there is a problem on M1 outputting other than 48k sample rates for source Apple iCloud Library files to a NAD HDMI connected receiver. Not necessarily an M1 hardware problem.

 

[gigatoaster]

I suggest you ditch Apple Music and try Roon + Qobuz. I understand you want to keep Apple Music but at least try it as both Roon & Qobuz offer free trials.

Maybe your receiver (what reference is it) is Roon Ready, which would make things much easier.

Title of Page

roonlabs.com

 

[vddobrev]

So far, it seems all we have learned is that there is a problem on M1 outputting other than 48k sample rates for source Apple iCloud Library files to a NAD HDMI connected receiver. Not necessarily an M1 hardware problem.

I don't agree with you on this one, I have bolded what I don't agree with. The HDMI connection and the available rates are negotiated by the receiver and the Mac, not by the file type or the player.

Once again, the Audio MIDI Setup is a system wide setup, based on both devices connected, but it is not influenced by the type of the file played, especially for encoded audio like DD, DTS, True HD, Atmos, etc.

Both devices connected via HDMI must support the format, and only then it will appear as an option.

Try it on your Macs and tell me if Audio MIDI Setup options change based on your file format or player.

 

[vddobrev]

I suggest you ditch Apple Music and try Roon + Qobuz. I understand you want to keep Apple Music but at least try it as both Roon & Qobuz offer free trials.

Maybe your receiver (what reference is it) is Roon Ready, which would make things much easier.

Title of Page

roonlabs.com

Thanks for this, it would have been nice, but my receiver is not on the list, it is an older NAD T785 model, it is not AirPlay, BluOS or WiFi enabled. But it does power my Martin Logan speakers quite nicely.

 

[gigatoaster]

Oh too bad. But you have a great system and I can’t imagine how you must be frustrated by the mini M1. Sorry for you.

 

[vddobrev]

Oh too bad. But you have a great system and I can’t imagine how you must be frustrated by the mini M1. Sorry for you.

Indeed I am frustrated... Apple TV 4K also supports only 48KHz output... and now found the hard way M1 too. I would have not been frustrated if my older hardware 2014 Intel Mac mini and Mac Pro 2013 were also limited, but they are not!

 

[brofkand]

It's likely an issue with the audio chipset that Apple uses on their ARM machines. It's not a limitation of ARM that I'm aware of, I have a Raspberry Pi that I use as a network streamer and it can handle much higher resolutions.

It's perplexing that Apple launched Lossless/High Res with such poor support for it. But then, a lot of the company's decisions in the past several years have perplexed me. But they're doing very well so I don't question them too much.

 

[marstan]

If that is true about the audio chipset, I presume that does not affect external USB audio interfaces plugged into the M1 mini. If it did all the audio people would have sounded off by now and they haven't that I know of.

 

[phrehdd]

Indeed I am frustrated... Apple TV 4K also supports only 48KHz output... and now found the hard way M1 too. I would have not been frustrated if my older hardware 2014 Intel Mac mini and Mac Pro 2013 were also limited, but they are not!

I honestly can appreciate the frustration that Apple *intentionally* limits audio (and other items) to what they believe we would need or settle for. I can say, I have quite a bit of 96/24 files and knew I would have to work around Apple's limitations. Also, unless one has some sort of very very high end system, they may never be able to tell (and most can't) the difference between say 48/24 and 96/24 and 192/24 on up. The output often is problematic and the road traveled. Every step is more distortion and an ideal stereo setup would require you to be in a relatively small space to fully get the goodness of the audio from those high end speakers that were fed by high end audio appliances. Most people cannot tell the difference between the various higher end audio provided for surround sound other than say if the set up makes sense. CDs are 44.1/16 and most cannot distinguish between CD quality and 48/24. Sadly, I have very sensitive ears and they are not "better" just sensitive and for me, I prefer no less than 44.1/16 but in the realm of that rate and 96/24.

 

[vddobrev]

I honestly can appreciate the frustration that Apple *intentionally* limits audio (and other items) to what they believe we would need or settle for. I can say, I have quite a bit of 96/24 files and knew I would have to work around Apple's limitations. Also, unless one has some sort of very very high end system, they may never be able to tell (and most can't) the difference between say 48/24 and 96/24 and 192/24 on up. The output often is problematic and the road traveled. Every step is more distortion and an ideal stereo setup would require you to be in a relatively small space to fully get the goodness of the audio from those high end speakers that were fed by high end audio appliances. Most people cannot tell the difference between the various higher end audio provided for surround sound other than say if the set up makes sense. CDs are 44.1/16 and most cannot distinguish between CD quality and 48/24. Sadly, I have very sensitive ears and they are not "better" just sensitive and for me, I prefer no less than 44.1/16 but in the realm of that rate and 96/24.

Well, I went ahead and re-read Apple's document on Lossless Audio:

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

Quotes from the document:

• 14-inch MacBook Pro and 16-inch MacBook Pro support native playback of songs at sample rates up to 96 kHz.
• To listen to songs at sample rates higher than 48 kHz on other Mac computers, you need an external digital-to-analog converter.

So there we have it - the newer Macs have been crippled, while the older ones like my 2014 Mac mini supports audio output up to 192KHz/24bit.

 

[McScooby]

Well, I went ahead and re-read Apple's document on Lossless Audio:

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

Quotes from the document:

• 14-inch MacBook Pro and 16-inch MacBook Pro support native playback of songs at sample rates up to 96 kHz.
• To listen to songs at sample rates higher than 48 kHz on other Mac computers, you need an external digital-to-analog converter.

So there we have it - the newer Macs have been crippled, while the older ones like my 2014 Mac mini supports audio output up to 192KHz/24bit.

I'd suspect that Apple Music is crippled not the DAC, as if what you're saying is correct, then the 2014 wouldn't be able to play higher sample rates if the link (for apple music playing lossless, not lossless/hi-res in general) is right. Good find btw.

 

[MajorFubar]

What other inputs does your receiver have? You could buy a USB-to-coaxial converter and connect it that way.
The news to me is HDMI isn't limited to 48kHz, because I always assumed it was. Shows how outdated my knowledge was.
Not that I can hear any difference in anything above 44.1, to be honest. I've heard various super high res albums that sound better than their CD equivalent, but it's always because the master is better, and if I re-sample them to 44.1 they still sound just as good, to my ears. Perhaps I just don't have magic ears.
I accept that's not relevant. The point is, the Mini M1 shouldn't be limited to 48K. That's not good.

 

[vddobrev]

I'd suspect that Apple Music is crippled not the DAC, as if what you're saying is correct, then the 2014 wouldn't be able to play higher sample rates if the link (for apple music playing lossless, not lossless/hi-res in general) is right. Good find btw.

2014 Mini is perfectly capable and able to output 192KHz/24bit from Apple Music. M1 mini is not. Same OS version, Monterey 12.1.

 

[vddobrev]

What other inputs does your receiver have? You could buy a USB-to-coaxial converter and connect it that way.
The news to me is HDMI isn't limited to 48kHz, because I always assumed it was. Shows how outdated my knowledge was.
Not that I can hear any difference in anything above 44.1, to be honest. I've heard various super high res albums that sound better than their CD equivalent, but it's always because the master is better, and if I re-sample them to 44.1 they still sound just as good, to my ears. Perhaps I just don't have magic ears.
I accept that's not relevant. The point is, the Mini M1 shouldn't be limited to 48K. That's not good.

My receiver has all sorts of inputs - optical, stereo RCA, etc. I will have to check that option USB-to-S/PDIF. But I really don't have to, will just continue to use my 2014 mini as my media player. The M1 mini will be sold.

Honestly, I am not sure I hear any differences in higher than 44.1, that is not the point. What I can hear is a much degraded output of the M1 mini compared to the 2014 mini, in the sense that the same song sounds differently and worse on the M1 - less bass, less low extensions, undefined mids and vocals, and highs are harsh and not clear, to the point that they are irritating.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm trying to figure out in my head what the Mini could be doing to the digital signal to degrade the sound quite so much. It could be really bad jitter. Just re-sampling everything up/down to 48kHz wouldn't itself give rise to the deterioration you are experiencing. In fact, as you rightly point out, you would be lucky to even notice an actual audible difference.

 

[marstan]

less bass, less low extensions, undefined mids and vocals, and highs are harsh and not clear, to the point that they are irritating.

Almost sounds like bad lossy compression. Also reminds me of bad digital volume controls. But you are playing lossless files and not manipulating gain or applying any EQ so can't be those things. As above jitter maybe but that has been a solved problem for quite some time. That would leave really bad sample rate down conversion.

 

[marstan]

I noticed in that Apple lossless audio document, they mentioned an option in the Apple Music app to turn lossless on or off. Have you checked that?

 

[phrehdd]

My receiver has all sorts of inputs - optical, stereo RCA, etc. I will have to check that option USB-to-S/PDIF. But I really don't have to, will just continue to use my 2014 mini as my media player. The M1 mini will be sold.

Honestly, I am not sure I hear any differences in higher than 44.1, that is not the point. What I can hear is a much degraded output of the M1 mini compared to the 2014 mini, in the sense that the same song sounds differently and worse on the M1 - less bass, less low extensions, undefined mids and vocals, and highs are harsh and not clear, to the point that they are irritating.

My M1 is set up to use USB out to my active speakers that have a DAC within. This has so far worked well.

There is also another part of this that is missing - just because a particular item might handle 96/24 or higher, doesn't mean it does it well.

For now, I allow USB to DisplayPort for the video part of a movie and as stated, usb to my speakers. You may want to consider options to have audio out to your receiver and the video direct to your monitor or TV. Be careful with optical, as many today will work at 48 and not 96 as they should be able to do (at least on paper) but it may sound of course different than what you have now.

Perhaps a good opportunity can be had if you checked out both PLEX and Kodi forums. Though they are about their software, the OSX/MacOS forums would be a great place to start. Some fairly savvy folks can be found in each.