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Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Apple is not "artifically disabling" support for Mac OS 9. They're removing extraneous OS 9 support from the firmware and the ROMs so that everything's more efficient.

We heard the same uproar when our beloved ADB, serial and SCSI was lacking in the original iMac. "Waah, my MacAlly Ergonomic Extended Keyboard won't work anymore! I can't use my old scanner or printer!" Get over it. Apple needs to push the envelope and innovate. If you want new hardware, get new software, and get on the damn boat already!

I will point out that there are solutions to lots of the problems you mentioned. Keyspan USB adapter, anyone?

Now, if some third party wanted to go the distance and make new machines bootable in OS 9, why I'd be the first in line to buy such a product. Even if that were "basic" OS 9 functionality -- i.e., no ambient light keyboard, no Firewire800, no Bluetooth. For me, no problem! I could ride that out until OS X matures (read: OS X becomes streamlined and Apple offers us the opportunity to not have to put up with the CPU and GPU intensive GUI, smoothed fonts which I despise, etc).

It's all well and good to have these nice things that make people go "ooooh" and "aaaah." But shouldn't true power users have the choice to turn these things off in the name of productivity? Everyone remembers Greg's Buttons (I think that was the name) back in OS 8 -- it gave the Finder many of the traits that came to be in OS 9. And it took a performance hit on your machine as well. So people CHOSE whether to enjoy the aesthetics or to enjoy the faster speed. I want such a choice when it comes to OS X.
 
Okay. Anyone remember when System 6 was faster than System 7? Were you mad when Apple made systems that wouldn't run System 6? The more and more powerful the computer itself gets, the less it matters that you have a lot of OS overhead. If you want minimal overhead and maximum performance, run some command-line shell over a Linux distribution on an Athlon.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Okay. Anyone remember when System 6 was faster than System 7? Were you mad when Apple made systems that wouldn't run System 6? The more and more powerful the computer itself gets, the less it matters that you have a lot of OS overhead. If you want minimal overhead and maximum performance, run some command-line shell over a Linux distribution on an Athlon.

osx is bweetifull to look at but i agree with john123 that it could be streamlined to be faster
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Okay. Anyone remember when System 6 was faster than System 7? Were you mad when Apple made systems that wouldn't run System 6? The more and more powerful the computer itself gets, the less it matters that you have a lot of OS overhead. If you want minimal overhead and maximum performance, run some command-line shell over a Linux distribution on an Athlon.

Noobs....

As I said in my first post, X is radically different because it marks a complete departure from 6, 7, 8, and 9. Each of those built incrementally upon their predecessors.

Second, I don't think my requests are that unreasonable. The option to turn off elements in the GUI so that we don't all have to suffer the performance hit if we don't want to? The ability to have the Apple menu back instead of the Dock? These are not monumental things to ask. It's ridiculous that to get functionality such as Windowshade and the Apple menu we have to download a third party haxie...

It is a classic case of ARTIFICIAL product differentiation.
 
In the back corner of my mind, when Apple decided to stop supporting OS 9 booting, I thought that they had a new version of Classic coming...one that would give all Classic apps instant execution (no starting Classic - either loading it as a startup kernel, or just running like a Carbon app), the Aqua interface, and all that jazz. They'd be slower, possibly, but still better than that current shlock of Classic we run now.

But, I guess not.
 
Originally posted by john123

As I said in my first post, X is radically different because it marks a complete departure from 6, 7, 8, and 9. Each of those built incrementally upon their predecessors.

Second, I don't think my requests are that unreasonable. The option to turn off elements in the GUI so that we don't all have to suffer the performance hit if we don't want to? The ability to have the Apple menu back instead of the Dock? These are not monumental things to ask. It's ridiculous that to get functionality such as Windowshade and the Apple menu we have to download a third party haxie...

It is a classic case of ARTIFICIAL product differentiation.

Mac OS 9 is based upon the original System and Finder included with the Macintosh 128k, which were designed to run one application at a time, in black and white, on a Motorola 68000 processor. System 6 introduced MultiFinder (a hack for running muliple applications at once) while System 7 introduced color and true (albeit primitive) multitasking.

Mac OS X is based upon BSD Unix.

That's not "artificial" product differentiation. It is a "complete departure" because System 7 wasn't hacking it anymore. Doesn't anyone here remember the real reason for Mac OS X? Don't we remember Copland? We needed protected memory, preemptive multitasking, dynamically allocated memory, symmetric multiprocessing, and all the other hallmarks of a "modern operating system". At the same time, Apple created a revolutionary and innovative user interface that was a quantum leap in both usability and aesthetics.

As for that interface: OS X does have an Apple menu. Oh, you meant to launch applications from. Heh. How quaint. You probably think the designated hitter rule was the death of baseball too.

The Dock is a massive improvement. Every day, I just start up the programs I use every day by clicking all the way across my Dock. For any other programs, I have LaunchBar, which I hope Apple buys out and integrates into the OS.

As for WindowShade: again, how quaint! What are you running your resolution at, 640 by 480?? It's not that hard to minimize, folks. And you can even resize the Dock. Do you really want big ol' title bars all over the screen when you can just have your windows in a little box in the Dock?

Your arguments were heard in 2001, and you were proven wrong. Stagnation will never defeat innovation. If you want yesterday's technology, use Windows. I'm running a 400 MHz iMac, and Jaguar is plenty fast for me. Of course, I have some things set so it'll run faster, like the Scale effect when minimizing. I just turned off text smoothing for 12 point or smaller fonts, but it was ugly, so I switched back. It wouldn't be unreasonable to allow you to totally turn off text smoothing, but that's availible in the Terminal and makes everything ugly as sin, so I can understand Apple's decision not to allow that.

The performance hit is there just because it's a more sophisticated OS, not because of various GUI elements. My OS 9 System Folder is less than 300 megs, but the OS X System is well over 700 megs. There's just more there, and you can't optimize that out of existence.

Originally posted by john123

It's all well and good to have these nice things that make people go "ooooh" and "aaaah." But shouldn't true power users have the choice to turn these things off in the name of productivity? Everyone remembers Greg's Buttons (I think that was the name) back in OS 8 -- it gave the Finder many of the traits that came to be in OS 9. And it took a performance hit on your machine as well. So people CHOSE whether to enjoy the aesthetics or to enjoy the faster speed. I want such a choice when it comes to OS X.

"True power users" have been disabling these things in the Terminal ever since Public Beta.

(Multiple edits to consolidate what would have been a triple post)
 
Response to Phil Of Mac


Mac OS X is based upon BSD Unix.

That's not "artificial" product differentiation. It is a "complete departure" because System 7 wasn't hacking it anymore....
As for that interface: OS X does have an Apple menu. Oh, you meant to launch applications from. Heh. How quaint. You probably think the designated hitter rule was the death of baseball too.


You missed the entire point of what I said. I was commenting on the features -- such as the limitation on the Apple menu and the forced use of the Dock. (I'll point out that under System 8, you could get something very similar to the Dock IN ADDITION TO the Apple menu. Greg's Buttons, anyone?)

Incidentally, the DH does ruin baseball and is why NL baseball is much more exciting than AL baseball.



As for WindowShade: again, how quaint! What are you running your resolution at, 640 by 480?? It's not that hard to minimize, folks. And you can even resize the Dock. Do you really want big ol' title bars all over the screen when you can just have your windows in a little box in the Dock?


1280x854 -- standard resolution on the new PowerBooks. Minimizing eliminates your ability to see what's on your screen simultaneously. It also requires you to take the time to go to the bottom of your screen to bring the window back up. And you have to run your cursor over a series of tiny thumbnail windows to find the one you want. If you are web browsing, for example, and a site doesn't name its pages uniquely, that poses a really annoying problem. The process is much quicker by collapsing window menu bars. So do answer your question, YES, I want "big ol' title bars all over the screen." So do lots of other people -- hence the popularity of the WindowShade haxie.



Your arguments were heard in 2001, and you were proven wrong.


Proven wrong? Haha, this is the most amusing part of your angry little tirade! These are opinions of style, and we are all entitled to them. If anything, the only cogent proof provided by anyone is by me and my citation of the popularity of third party hacks to the OS. Just go to versiontracker.com and read the comments on programs like WindowShade and Fruitmenu. Clearly, there are many of us who miss lots of great FEATURES from the previous OSes.


It wouldn't be unreasonable to allow you to totally turn off text smoothing, but that's availible in the Terminal and makes everything ugly as sin, so I can understand Apple's decision not to allow that.

Wasn't ugly in OS 9....



The performance hit is there just because it's a more sophisticated OS, not because of various GUI elements. My OS 9 System Folder is less than 300 megs, but the OS X System is well over 700 megs. There's just more there, and you can't optimize that out of existence.

What a waste of space. If you think bloated code isn't a reality, I'd suggest that you're not in touch with reality itself. Or, put more nicely and accurately, that you don't know much about code and programming.



"True power users" have been disabling these things in the Terminal ever since Public Beta.


And my point, which I thought was made so clearly that a retarded gorilla would understand it, was that we should not have to. It's a Mac. If I wanted to fool around with code, I'd have bought a real UNIX machine or fiddled around with DOS.

Your arrogant decision to dismiss comments like mine is very interesting, and how angry your post was brings up more questions than I can count. Most of those are far off-topic, so we'll just leave it at that.

You comment that:
We needed protected memory, preemptive multitasking, dynamically allocated memory, symmetric multiprocessing, and all the other hallmarks of a "modern operating system".
At the risk of not being sufficiently prospective and forward looking, I ask, "Why?" How many Mac users really do true multitasking? And how much of the time are they multitasking? I'd wager that given a true power user, he or she would save more time using 9 than X over the course of an average week. But that's just me, and I'm sure you'll disagree since you like to be argumentative.

Nevertheless, I still contend that limiting options is not the way for a company like Apple to maximize its profits. In case any of you failed to notice, Apple posted its second quarterly loss today. Seems to me that a company posting losses should focus on giving its customers options and not trimming its user base at the edges.
 
To me, it sounds like you just liked Mac OS 9 better. You're not accepting of change of any type. Maybe LaunchBar changed this for me, but I have no need for having apps in the Apple menu. I really suggest you get LaunchBar, it is an excellent program and is better than anything else at launching apps. Of course, LB is new and different, which you appear to despise, but oh well.

If you like the WindowShade functionality (and if you like to minimize dozens of windows at once), it's up to you to choose to get that software. It was third party before Apple got it. I should note here that when you minimize a window, the minimized window in the dock looks like a miniature version of the window itself, when and if it helps. (I'll also note that if don't multitask, like you suggest below, you wouldn't be minimizing windows anyway.)

As for font smoothing, I turned it off for 12 point fonts, and they became so amazingly hideous I immediately turned it back on. Mac OS 9 is so ugly compared to OS X, it's like going 10 years into the past.

As for "These are opinions of style, and we are all entitled to them," I would agree. Apple has opinions too, and it's rather pathetic of you to demand that they just serve your outdated tastes when you can freely download third party software to change what you want. And, very often, Apple is right in these cases. We don't *need* hard drive icons on the desktop, nor do we need an Applications Menu when we have the Dock. Those of us who actually adapted to the OS X user interface largely agree that it's better. And as for "you can't just optimize [the OS X performance hit] out of existence", I was paraphrasing a remark I read by an Apple programmer, who probably knows more than either of us.

As for "we shouldn't have to change settings in the Terminal", apart from questioning your power user status, I'd like to point out that a lot of Jaguar's features are all about changing settings without resorting to the Terminal. And where those fall short, there's third party software.

You posted:
We needed protected memory, preemptive multitasking, dynamically allocated memory, symmetric multiprocessing, and all the other hallmarks of a "modern operating system".
At the risk of not being sufficiently prospective and forward looking, I ask, "Why?" How many Mac users really do true multitasking? And how much of the time are they multitasking? I'd wager that given a true power user, he or she would save more time using 9 than X over the course of an average week. But that's just me, and I'm sure you'll disagree since you like to be argumentative.

I'm multitasking right now. I'm running 11 apps and a number of background processes. Most of us probably are as well. And as for why we need these features, "so it doesn't crash" and "so it doesn't lock up and prohibit you from switching apps when one app is busy" are really good reasons. "So I don't have to mess with memory allocations or virtual memory settings" and "so dual-processor systems are actually worth a damn" are great reasons too. If you only run one program at a time, you don't need multitasking. If you only run one program at a time, I feel very sorry for you. (And you you one only one program at a time, you're not a power user.)

(Technical note for you "power users" out there--the definition of "multitasking", is OS terms, is something like "running more than one program at once". It's slightly more technical than that, but that's the general gist of it.)

And as for why I appear agitated: I don't suffer fools well.
 
Originally posted by Phil of Mac
And as for why I appear agitated: I don't suffer fools well.

Ah, once again you resort to personal invective and ad hominem attacks. Very interesting. :) My education and IQ are both quite good, and your attempt to attack my intelligence only illustrates to me that you are increasingly aware of your own inability to answer my criticisms. That's too bad.

Back to font smoothing for the moment: one advantage you have is having an iMac. Font smoothing doesn't look quite as good on an LCD. LCDs have component pixels, and each pixel can only be one color (that color is reflected as the combination of the three subpixels). As such, OS X's fonts look a lot better on a tube than on any TFT screen.

Now, to multitasking: you don't seem to understand quite what multitasking is in the true sense of the word. True multitasking is not about having a bunch of apps open simultaneously. It's about multiple apps *concurrently* using processor cycles. Your failure to understand that led you to completely misunderstand my post, resulting in yet another angry and irrelevant tirade.

An example would be simultaneously running a filter in Photoshop, ripping tracks in iTunes, and duplicating a directory with 1000 files totaling a gigabyte of space -- all simultaneously. Try it in OS X and OS 9, respectively. It is there that OS X shines and blasts 9 out of the water...but on the other hand, how many of us do that much stuff simultaneously? Let's be honest...

If you have 11 apps open and none are doing anything, you are not really multitasking. Incidentally, I routinely run about a dozen programs at once -- very comfortably in OS 9, too. I find it more than stable for my needs, and I rarely crash. If you crash in OS 9, given that I don't crash often, maybe you should ask yourself what you aren't doing right.

Start with your computer, and go from there....
 
The performance hit is there just because it's a more sophisticated OS, not because of various GUI elements. My OS 9 System Folder is less than 300 megs, but the OS X System is well over 700 megs. There's just more there, and you can't optimize that out of existence.

I do not remember where I read it but approximately 10% of a modern GUI OS is the actual code that does the work- the rest is graphics and special effects. That's why all these new OSs- be it from Microsoft, Apple, a *nix company, or even Window Managers in Linux- are needing exponentially more disk space because all these cutesy graphics are being added, not necessarily because more features are being added. A 70 meg linux installation can do everything X can- it may not be the most efficient way of, say, editing a picture, but to say that X isn't bloated is way out of line. All the cute graphics like the super high resolution icons do nothing but waste space when standard 32x32 icons would do. I'm not criticizing the actual use of high res stuff because I'm willing to pay the price, but there is plenty of stuff that can be optimized or removed to make the X system much, much smaller.
 
Originally posted by locovaca

I'm not criticizing the actual use of high res stuff because I'm willing to pay the price, but there is plenty of stuff that can be optimized or removed to make the X system much, much smaller.

Why not just make it optional and please everyone? You'd think it's something that any competent programmer could really do within a week's time. Heck, a team of programmers working for a week could do it without a question at all. What would be the cost on that -- $100,000, max? Just think...if 30 people like myself were moved to buy the 17" PowerBook for that reason alone (and I hardly think that's a stretch), the project would have paid for itself.
 
Here we are, a faction of the computer world fractioning ourselves over an OS on our favorite platform. Gosh, this is getting scary...come on folks, let's not tear each other apart like we're posting against a bunch of PeeCee propeller heads.

"You're a jerk for not going over to OS X! Get with the program! What's your problem?"

"I'm happy with OS 9. Why should I spend a bunch of money for eye candy? Everything's working fine, what's the point? Why force me to change over at this stage of the game?"

I have people calling me all the time asking "Should I go to OS X?" As the Information Technology Liaison of my school district, when people at schools ask me this, my first question to them is "Does everything you have at your site work?" Then I ask, "Why are you asking?" 9 times out of 10, they feel they "should" go to OS X...in other words, they don't have a compelling reason because they just feel the "pressure" to change over.

The old adage here is true, and it's what I advise the schools: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." That's why I'm grateful for Apple to see the logic in keeping OS 9 bootable for at least 6 more months on the machines we typically buy. Of all the hard times that schools usually face when it comes to the ability to purchase technology, THIS HAS TO BE ONE OF THE WORST, at least in California. Education machines are STILL running 7.6.1, 8.6 and 9. Most of the software that educators enjoy run happily on those systems, especially 9. Jumping up to OS X is too prohibitive and to NOT have certain software companies jump over to X just turns off people who are looking to augment (add to) their base of machines. Sure, sure, there's "classic" but by the time all that boots up the class period is over. I'm sorry, but it's true.

And don't get me STARTED on Macintosh Manager. The difference between that and OS X (AppleShare IP and Workgroup Manager) are like night and day, and it was hard enough to train people on the former.

I'm pro Apple. Have been since '84. But I'm not endorsing nor pushing OS X down the throats of my poor schools if they don't really have a compelling need to go there, and most don't. Yet.

Apple has tried, but not hard enough, to have seminars on OS X and some mini-classes on administration of server based software. THESE NEED TO BE FREE, and more often than once every 6 months. GIVE US THE SUPPORT, and we'll love and buy you from here to Kingdom Come. But DON'T expect us to send a few people now and then to $1,500.00 a week classes to learn this "easy to use simple technology" because to the average teacher who typically is charged with administrating such a beast, it's far from easy and simple. WE CAN'T AFFORD IT, and people may sour on the whole experience, throw up their hands, and start buying Dells. I've seen it. It's real. And it sucks.

:(
 
Originally posted by voicegy
Here we are, a faction of the computer world fractioning ourselves over an OS on our favorite platform. Gosh, this is getting scary...come on folks, let's not tear each other apart like we're posting against a bunch of PeeCee propeller heads.
Agreed. There is nothing that makes feel as uneasy as that (well people switching to PeeCee maybe).
Originally posted by voicegy
"You're a jerk for not going over to OS X! Get with the program! What's your problem?"

"I'm happy with OS 9. Why should I spend a bunch of money for eye candy? Everything's working fine, what's the point? Why force me to change over at this stage of the game?"
The one thing I can say to people who don't know whether to upgrade to OSX is this: if it is a massive headache (technically or financially speaking) and you are happy about your computing experience, then don't do it. But bear in mind that as time goes by the need to get OSX will get bigger and bigger (less and less support software- and hardware-wise).
But if you can upgrade then do it!!!.

I agree with you voicegy that Apple should make an effort to make those seminars free for all those schools and everything, but telling people (individuals, not schools) to stick with OS9 when they have the possibility to move to OSX seems wrong to me: people have to understand that most of the things they find irksome in the new GUI are gonna be adressed by one haxie or another, the same way it was done in OS 9. Just saying 'this little haxie is not there I just can't move' seems a bit over the top. There are already plenty of ways to alter your OSX experience.

But anyway, sticking to OS9 without being FORCED to is like sticking one's head in the sand. I am sorry but there is no turning back and if people think that the Apple world will go back to OS 9 and ditch OS X need to get their head checked. Of course if you wanna keep your old hardware and everything running on OS9, there is nothing to prevent you from doing it (and you probably have every reason/right to do it). But I think that Apple limiting people's choice on new machines is the right way. If you want to be part of a modern Apple experience by buying new hardware, then you should be doing it on OSX.

Oh by the way john123 I know it is all a matter of taste and everything, but if Apple had stuck with OS9 and its GUI (non anti-aliased fonts, etc...), I would never have switched: it is really ugly (i mean, REALLY) when compared to OSX and would never have caught my (and some other switchers') attention in the first place. Admit it, OSX is already a much nicer (better?) computing platform than OS9 and it is only a few years old...(my opinion anyway)

My 2 cents.

NicoMan
 
Personally, I'm torn.

I have a new Dual 867 sitting next to me that I will be using predominantly under OS X when I've bought a monitor, but all of my expensive music software and VST instruments will run under OS 9 only, so to make music (why I bought this machine) I'll be rebooting.

But OS 9 is bloody unstable. I'm writing this on a Powerbook G3 that has served me well over the past 3.5 years in every respect apart from stability. I freeze up completely at least once a day, and it's not because of extensions conflicts or anything like that, because I provide support for a network of OS 9 machines that also crash with unacceptably high frequency under the load of the most basic applications.

The lack of stability of OS 9 is a joke, and that is the only reason why I won't be sorry to see it go.
 
Originally posted by john123
If you have 11 apps open and none are doing anything, you are not really multitasking. Incidentally, I routinely run about a dozen programs at once -- very comfortably in OS 9, too. I find it more than stable for my needs, and I rarely crash. If you crash in OS 9, given that I don't crash often, maybe you should ask yourself what you aren't doing right.
I understand where you're coming from. Like someone said 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. BUT let me ask you this: has it ever happened to you that in OS9 one of your 11 opened apps would crash, taking down the whole system and any unsaved data. How do you feel about the whole thing when it happens? I don't want to start a war of words (maybe I didn't understand what you meant), but you cannot seriously tell me that moving to a 'secure' modern OS (pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory being 2 of the characteristics of the new OS) is not necessary. Even if the scenario I described above never happened to you (which I doubt, but let's say for argument's sake that it never did), I keep hearing from other OS9 users that it does; and I rarely hear people saying that it does not happen often (I don't know if that is very clear...hmmm). So, as much as I would like to believe that you are the perfect user that never does anything wrong to upset his machine (!!!), I find it hard to believe.

Not that you would care about my opinion but let us be reasonable...

Nicoman
 
Originally posted by john123
At the risk of not being sufficiently prospective and forward looking, I ask, "Why?" How many Mac users really do true multitasking? And how much of the time are they multitasking? I'd wager that given a true power user, he or she would save more time using 9 than X over the course of an average week. But that's just me, and I'm sure you'll disagree since you like to be argumentative.

Have you ever listened to a song in iTunes and typed a paper, working on a photo in Photoshop, searched the internet, or burned a CD? That is multi-tasking. Sure you could do this things is OS9, but say you were working in Photoshop, and the application crashed... in OS9, it would completely crash the machine (ususally). In OSX, it would crash the application, but leave the iTunes music running without a burp. That is protected memory and true multi-tasking working together.

Another example that is not influenced by protected memory would be when you are doing something intenstive with your computer... importing a Quicktime movie into iMovie for example. In OS9, your iTunes music would start and stop playing until the movie is imported, and then will continue as normal. With the true multi-tasking, there is smooth, uninterupted music.

Multi-tasking in OS9 worked this way... the primary application (active) had the majority of the CPU. Whatever was left over was given to other applications to use... background printing, iTunes, burning CD, scanning, etc. In OSX, the CPU usage is handled by the OS. The applications all request a percentage of usage, and the OS determines which apps get how much CPU time. There is a performance hit because the OS is using the CPU to calculate, but it is not much in the long run. It is the other applications that are "slowing down" the performance of OSX. Perhaps many of those apps are system BSD thingies that you really do not need... perhaps you do. I know that the WindowServer takes a lot of performance, and if anything needs to be optimized, that is it! Take a look at ProcessViewer to see what your machine is doing.
 
Originally posted by nighthawk


Have you ever listened to a song in iTunes and typed a paper, working on a photo in Photoshop, searched the internet, or burned a CD? That is multi-tasking. Sure you could do this things is OS9, but say you were working in Photoshop, and the application crashed... in OS9, it would completely crash the machine (ususally). In OSX, it would crash the application, but leave the iTunes music running without a burp. That is protected memory and true multi-tasking working together.

Just to chime in this is how I use my computer nearly all the time. OSX just works much better for this sort of multitasking with much less of a speed hit.
 
Re: Speed

Originally posted by john123
My biggest beef with OS X is that it's noticeably slower. For the person who started in X and remained that way, I guess he/she has no real basis for comparison. But in everyday tasks -- especially pilfering around in the Finder -- 9 has X beat hands-down. Apple's advice, of course, would be to get the newest hardware, but all that does is speed up BOTH 9 and X. On my PB1Ghz/SD, 9 is still considerably faster than X, and that is the one thing that cools my jets on getting a 17" model for myself.

That's Apple's real reason for not allowing booting to 9... They don't want people to continue to be able to compare the speeds of OS9 and OSX. I wish I had the distorted perception of reality that the "OSX is faster" crack-heads do...
 
Re: Re: Speed

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


That's Apple's real reason for not allowing booting to 9... They don't want people to continue to be able to compare the speeds of OS9 and OSX. I wish I had the distorted perception of reality that the "OSX is faster" crack-heads do...

It's not that X is faster and it's not that I am trying to say that but when you are multitasking the speed hit you take with two apps and more open is much less then you do in 9. Also fore people like me with a dual processor machine. Which is quite a few people you talk to here at Macrumors. OSX is faster simply because it support the dual processors fully where as 9 maxes one processor out and barely uses the second.
 
Re: Re: Re: Speed

Originally posted by MacBandit


It's not that X is faster and it's not that I am trying to say that but when you are multitasking the speed hit you take with two apps and more open is much less then you do in 9. Also fore people like me with a dual processor machine. Which is quite a few people you talk to here at Macrumors. OSX is faster simply because it support the dual processors fully where as 9 maxes one processor out and barely uses the second.

I was being facetious and am a happy Jaguar wrestler, but in general Finder perusing, I am amazed at 9's snappiness when I'm forced to hop on a coworker's machine. :D
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac

Mac OS 9 is based upon the original System and Finder included with the Macintosh 128k, which were designed to run one application at a time, in black and white, on a Motorola 68000 processor. System 6 introduced MultiFinder (a hack for running muliple applications at once) while System 7 introduced color and true (albeit primitive) multitasking.

The original Mac OS supported color long before there were color Macs. From the very beginning, software had the ability to use either 8 or 16 colors (I forget which), though few programs actually took advantage of it. System 6 definitely had support for at least 256 colors, as the old Mac II in my parents' closet is capable of demonstrating.
 
Yea. . .

Originally posted by NicoMan

I understand where you're coming from. Like someone said 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. BUT let me ask you this: has it ever happened to you that in OS9 one of your 11 opened apps would crash, taking down the whole system and any unsaved data. How do you feel about the whole thing when it happens? I don't want to start a war of words (maybe I didn't understand what you meant), but you cannot seriously tell me that moving to a 'secure' modern OS (pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory being 2 of the characteristics of the new OS) is not necessary. Even if the scenario I described above never happened to you (which I doubt, but let's say for argument's sake that it never did), I keep hearing from other OS9 users that it does; and I rarely hear people saying that it does not happen often (I don't know if that is very clear...hmmm). So, as much as I would like to believe that you are the perfect user that never does anything wrong to upset his machine (!!!), I find it hard to believe.

Not that you would care about my opinion but let us be reasonable...

Nicoman

I agree. I remember on my OS 9 iBook, when I would try to run iTunes, AOL (yes, that's what I had back then), and AppleWorks at the same time, up popped the little bomb with a Restart button that didn't even work! The problem is a lot of people (mainly educators) don't keep up with Apple a whole lot, so they're still stuck on 8.6/9.0 (and I must admit, Apple did a great job on 9.2, hardly ever crashed), and they don't realize that a simple 64MB more RAM would improve everything, which is why so many schools are being roped into buying some $299 Dells. So although everyone is entitled to their own opinion, if you are forced to reboot at least once a month (or are just tired of OS 9), I recommend OS X as long as your computer is at least 300MHz. And john123, you must realize that maybe not every OS 9 user has 9.2 .
 
Originally posted by john123


Ah, once again you resort to personal invective and ad hominem attacks. Very interesting. :) My education and IQ are both quite good, and your attempt to attack my intelligence only illustrates to me that you are increasingly aware of your own inability to answer my criticisms. That's too bad.

Now, to multitasking: you don't seem to understand quite what multitasking is in the true sense of the word. True multitasking is not about having a bunch of apps open simultaneously. It's about multiple apps *concurrently* using processor cycles. Your failure to understand that led you to completely misunderstand my post, resulting in yet another angry and irrelevant tirade.

An example would be simultaneously running a filter in Photoshop, ripping tracks in iTunes, and duplicating a directory with 1000 files totaling a gigabyte of space -- all simultaneously. Try it in OS X and OS 9, respectively. It is there that OS X shines and blasts 9 out of the water...but on the other hand, how many of us do that much stuff simultaneously? Let's be honest...

If you have 11 apps open and none are doing anything, you are not really multitasking. Incidentally, I routinely run about a dozen programs at once -- very comfortably in OS 9, too. I find it more than stable for my needs, and I rarely crash. If you crash in OS 9, given that I don't crash often, maybe you should ask yourself what you aren't doing right.

Start with your computer, and go from there....

As for multitasking, nice save there, chief. It is absolutely correct that when a program is doing absolutely nothing, multitasking isn't going on. However, instant messenger programs, email programs, and iTunes all do things when you're not actively using them. Listening to iTunes, typing a post, and downloading software is multitasking too.

In fact, if it weren't for the way iTunes for OS 9 was programmed to overcome OS 9's multitasking difficulties, it wouldn't even work. Have you actually listened to an MP3 or even a MIDI in QuickTime Player on OS 9 as you started a program? It stops playing until the program's opened. Another thing I despise about 9 is when an application locks up, you can't switch out of it. You're stuck until it's done. It's wasted time.

As for how your 9 rarely crashes, could you quantify that? Once a week? Month? Year?

I spend an entire post attacking your criticisms and conclude with a pithy comment about your stupidity, and you accuse me of not being able to attack your criticisms? Did you even read my post? It is curious that you mention this issue first, and the actual discussion later. This entire thing is an afterthought for me, and it's truly sad you've attached this much importance to it.
 
Originally posted by john123


Why not just make it optional and please everyone? You'd think it's something that any competent programmer could really do within a week's time. Heck, a team of programmers working for a week could do it without a question at all. What would be the cost on that -- $100,000, max? Just think...if 30 people like myself were moved to buy the 17" PowerBook for that reason alone (and I hardly think that's a stretch), the project would have paid for itself.

No, not really. Apple doesn't make $3000 in *profit* on a PowerBook. It actually costs them a good deal of that to actually build the PowerBook. And they still have to pay for R&D costs. If they make a 30% margin on the PowerBooks (I think that's close to the number I read for Apple's total profit margin) they would make about $900 per 'Book--requiring roughly 110 people to each buy a 17 inch PowerBook.

No matter what Apple does, they can't "please everyone". And it's not their strategic plan to please you. They could have simply released Mac OS X as a CLI on an Athlon. That would be faster, no?
 
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