Mac OS X 10.6 Called 'Snow Leopard', All Cocoa?

[Quillz]

::cough::Vista::cough::

Unless you're a blind troll, Vista did have many new features. The point still stands... There has yet to be a major OS upgrade that didn't feature something new. So I doubt that 10.6 will be nothing more than security/stability improvements. There needs to be something new to make it marketable and appealing to consumers.

 

[nuckinfutz]

It is small in terms of the 5-7 percent market share...


The intel transition was announced about three years ago. He should care about keeping people who bought before that happy since they're likely to keep buying a new mac every 4-6 years. You piss off customers, you lose them, and apple's not in a position to tell everyone who waits more than 3 years to upgrade to get lost.

Apple's share of desktop computing is most likely higher as browsing characteristics put Macs running Safari in higher numbers. I think people are constantly mislead by marketshare numbers and rarely do these numbers come with decent disclosure about how the numbers were tabulated.

Apple should certainly care about PPC owners but let's be honest. If 10.6 is indeed primarily stability and security improvements then PPC users aren't missing out on much. Yet ...we'll still hear the whines and moans from those who love being perpetually outraged.

 

[TheSpaz]

What does this mean for Rosetta? Does Rosetta stay and PPC machines are left out, or is Rosetta disappearing like Classic disappeared in Leopard?

 

[Slip]

For the love of god, stop playing guessing games. It's all common sense.

I'm fairly certain that's what this entire website's about. Just a hunch.

But back on topic, I'm fairly content with what's rumoured, reliability and stability are always good and ditching all of the PPC code can't hurt, let's just hope it's not a full blown £85 update...

 

[karenflower]

Oh wow. My first ever Digg Front Page!!!!!!! *is so proud*

I think Snow Leopard is a beautiful name for 10.6. There seems to be a weather theme going on here. . snow, air. . what next, iPod sunshine?

 

[TheSpaz]

Oh wow. My first ever Digg Front Page!!!!!!! *is so proud*

I think Snow Leopard is a beautiful name for 10.6. There seems to be a weather theme going on here. . snow, air. . what next, iPod sunshine?

They called it "Air" because it's almost as light as air and the fact that it's based almost entirely of wireless connectivity.

 

[Manic Mouse]

What does this mean for Rosetta? Does Rosetta stay and PPC machines are left out, or is Rosetta disappearing like Classic disappeared in Leopard?

Well Rosetta has served it's purpose, I see no reason to keep it around. The more I think about this "OS spring clean" that 10.6 is supposed to be the better an idea it sounds. Stability, performance and the removal of obsolete code all sounds good to me.

 

[Mousse]

Here's the real scoop: Remember the invite with the split Golden Gate? It means Mac OS X will be split into 2 distinct lines. The current Leopard will not be immediately discontinued or replaced. Instead, a Snow Leopard, lighter version of Leopard, will be introduced.

That's possible, since the only remaining true big cats are Clouded Leopard, Bornean Clouded Leopard, Cougar (although technically Apple already used it twice with Puma 10.1 and Panther 10.3) and Lion. The two leopards would be the lite varient, while cougar and lion the full featured version. After that, they'll have to switch to small cat (Ocelot or Lynx) or some other animal. Okay, I doubt Apple's going to fragment OSX the way MS did with Windows. I highly doubt an OSX Lite for desktop computers.

On a different topic, I don't see why some people upgrade to the latest OS when they don't have to. I'm still running Tiger on my MacBook. All the programs I need runs fine on Tiger and the latest Leopard only programs doesn't have enough must have features to warrant an upgrade. Upgrade only if you have to and you'll be happy.

 

[milo]

Apple should certainly care about PPC owners but let's be honest. If 10.6 is indeed primarily stability and security improvements then PPC users aren't missing out on much. Yet ...we'll still hear the whines and moans from those who love being perpetually outraged.

To me it mainly depends on whether apps will start requiring 10.6. I'm fine with staying on Leopard if there are no new features, but not on missing out on app updates.

Well Rosetta has served it's purpose, I see no reason to keep it around.

People will want it if they still have apps that haven't been updated. Believe it or not, there are still a few things that haven't been updated yet.

 

[emulator]

People will want it if they still have apps that haven't been updated. Believe it or not, there are still a few things that haven't been updated yet.

well, then people should stay with 10.4 or 10.5

I just don't get it why people panic for Intel only OS. if you don't want to upgrade hw, just stay with 10.5. and in reality, point releases should have been minor updates anyway, apple feed everyone with their major release point versioning while it should not have been like that.

 

[milo]

well, then people should stay with 10.4 or 10.5

Not the best option when some apps aren't universal but others require the latest OS. Hopefully by the time 10.6 ships, everything I need will be universal.

But this is getting off topic, the rumor doesn't say they're dropping rosetta, does it?

 

[nxtort]

No point in getting worked up until an official release from Apple, but I would hate to see Quad G5's not running the latest OS.

well, then people should stay with 10.4 or 10.5

I just don't get it why people panic for Intel only OS. if you don't want to upgrade hw, just stay with 10.5. and in reality, point releases should have been minor updates anyway, apple feed everyone with their major release point versioning while it should not have been like that.

 

[bobertoq]

Yep.

Better be FREE or somebody's gonna get sued...


You can't sell a fix. Period.

And who will be suing apple?

A fix can be sold, and this rumor is not a 'fix' it's an 'improvement'. big difference.

 

[Eric S.]

Funny, I'm running Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 on a Pentium4 based PC, and it runs faster and smoother than Windows XP, and as stable as XP ever did.

But it still sucks.

 

[SkyBell]

How is a G5 running Leopard useless? You are out the park on this one. PPC support will be lucky to survive 10.6 and it's certainly not going to be in 10.7. Apple is not going to jump from 10.7 to 11.0 that's nonsensical.

Where did I say it was useless? iMac G3's running OS 8 aren't useless, they're capable in many ways, just like a G5 running Leopard would be. I'm saying it makes no sense to drop support for such a powerful machine. Like I said, put yourself in their shoes. You have a 2.5 GHz computer, extremely powerful and capable, and yet, you can't run the latest OS, even though you know your machine could do it with ease. Wouldn't you be more then a little ticked off? Apple is NOT going to drop PPC until at least 10.7.

Oh, and Apple jumping from 10.7 to 11.0? Totally possible. They jumped from 8.6 to 9.0, and no one thought that was "nonsensical".

 

[nuckinfutz]

Where did I say it was useless? iMac G3's running OS 8 aren't useless, they're capable in many ways, just like a G5 running Leopard would be. I'm saying it makes no sense to drop support for such a powerful machine. Like I said, put yourself in their shoes. You have a 2.5 GHz computer, extremely powerful and capable, and yet, you can't run the latest OS, even though you know your machine could do it with ease. Wouldn't you be more then a little ticked off? Apple is NOT going to drop PPC until at least 10.7.

Oh, and Apple jumping from 10.7 to 11.0? Totally possible. They jumped from 8.6 to 9.0, and no one thought that was "nonsensical".

You may be right Cassie. However if Apple keeps PPC support into 2010 they are fools. People that purchased G5 in mid 2006 knew they were buying a Lame Duck computer as Apple had announced the transition to intel. If Apple delivers a 10.6 yet includes few new technologies then there's really no reason for PPC to get overly upset because any optimizations done today will be for Intel anyways. Universal Binary is a cool bridge feature for apps but it does create more work for developers and as Intel Macs start to dominate PPC in numbers developers will have less and less incentive to go UB.

You are correct about the OS jump. Apple could announce OS X 31 tomorrow. However what is nonsensical is to think they'll jump to XI when they've charged for every point release (including a nominal fee for 10.1).

We'll pick this up again next week and see where things fall regarding PPC support. I'm giving you 60% odds that PPC survives if 10.6 is previewed.

 

[Manic Mouse]

Where did I say it was useless? iMac G3's running OS 8 aren't useless, they're capable in many ways, just like a G5 running Leopard would be. I'm saying it makes no sense to drop support for such a powerful machine. Like I said, put yourself in their shoes. You have a 2.5 GHz computer, extremely powerful and capable, and yet, you can't run the latest OS, even though you know your machine could do it with ease. Wouldn't you be more then a little ticked off? Apple is NOT going to drop PPC until at least 10.7.

Of course it does. Why spend time and effort developing for a dead platform and architecture just for the few that might buy the OS? Apple improve their OS to sell computers primarily, and to make people upgrade secondarily.

"Snow Leopard" is supposedly going to be about cleaning up the code and optimising it, providing a firm base for future versions of the OS (ie: 10.7). Why bother doing that for a dead architecture that will be dropped for future OS iterations anyway.

Snow Leopard will be about making the OS run like lightning on INTEL machines (for the future). There's no point releasing such an OS on PPC or spending the time developing it for PPC. You might want Apple to develop 10.6 for PPC, but that's irrelevant to Apple.

And if they don't release 10.6 in PPC form how will it make your current computer any less capable than it is now? If it suits your needs now the fact that a newer OS is out will not change that.

 

[milo]

Of course it does. Why spend time and effort developing for a dead platform and architecture just for the few that might buy the OS? Apple improve their OS to sell computers primarily, and to make people upgrade secondarily.

Why? Because of the people who might buy the OS. And because that group may not be as "few" as you suspect, and because that group probably includes a decent number of people who are using the "pro" machines and don't want to piss them off. To take your philosophy to an extreme, why support any machines beyond the ones currently for sale? After all, the other ones are all "dead", right?

It makes sense only if people actually upgrade their machines.

It doesn't make sense if it annoys a big enough portion of the current user base and they go with another option instead of upgrading.

Without knowing more details it's hard to say which would be greater. There's something to be said for keeping customers happy, but I guess that's more long term thinking instead of going for the quickest buck.

To be honest, I have been looking at buying a new mac fairly soon, but if they're dropping support for machines this quickly, it makes me more inclined to put it off as long as I can, to see what ends up happening with their support.

 

[Manic Mouse]

Why? Because of the people who might buy the OS. And because that group may not be as "few" as you suspect, and because that group probably includes a decent number of people who are using the "pro" machines and don't want to piss them off. To take your philosophy to an extreme, why support any machines beyond the ones currently for sale? After all, the other ones are all "dead", right?

It makes sense only if people actually upgrade their machines.

It doesn't make sense if it annoys a big enough portion of the current user base and they go with another option instead of upgrading.

Without knowing more details it's hard to say which would be greater. There's something to be said for keeping customers happy, but I guess that's more long term thinking instead of going for the quickest buck.

To be honest, I have been looking at buying a new mac fairly soon, but if they're dropping support for machines this quickly, it makes me more inclined to put it off as long as I can, to see what ends up happening with their support.

And how would a release designed to improve Intel performance and clean up the code-base for those machines be of any use to PPC owners? If 10.6 isn't going to introduce any new features, you're not going to be missing out on anything (that would reasonably affect you).

And your comparison is a strawman as current macs aren't like PPC, which is a dead architecture (at least as far as Macs go). Optimising the OS for Intel and cleaning out legacy (ie: PPC) code will have benefits for the future. Doing this for PPC will not.

Your current PPC machine will run just as well regardless of whether a new OS is out or not, and you won't be missing out on any new features. The entire point of 10.6 (if these rumours are true) is to clean up the OS for the future, I fail to see how this would be helpful (or a wise use of resources) on an architecture that has no future.

 

[Eric S.]

And how would a release designed to improve Intel performance and clean up the code-base for those machines be of any use to PPC owners? If 10.6 isn't going to introduce any new features, you're not going to be missing out on anything (that would reasonably affect you).

And this is exactly the argument that Apple will use - "well you PPC guys don't need this anyway." Then when 10.7 comes out they'll say, "everyone knows we already dropped PPC support." It ties it up in a nice little bow for them - minimum of user complaint.

And your comparison is a strawman as current macs aren't like PPC, which is a dead architecture (at least as far as Macs go).

It will only be "dead" because Apple marketing says so, not for any actual technical reason. The OS will still run if they would just compile it. Yes, that would involve testing overhead, but there's something to be said for doing the right thing for your customers. We're seeing that attitude exponentially decreasing from Apple lately.

Optimising the OS for Intel and cleaning out legacy (ie: PPC) code will have benefits for the future. Doing this for PPC will not.

What optimizations? What benefits?

Your current PPC machine will run just as well regardless of whether a new OS is out or not, and you won't be missing out on any new features.

Until 10.7 comes out.

The entire point of 10.6 (if these rumours are true) is to clean up the OS for the future, I fail to see how this would be helpful (or a wise use of resources) on an architecture that has no future.

Obviously since it doesn't adversely affect you, you fail to see how it would be helpful.

 

[BenRoethig]

"Snow Leopard" is supposedly going to be about cleaning up the code and optimising it, providing a firm base for future versions of the OS (ie: 10.7). Why bother doing that for a dead architecture that will be dropped for future OS iterations anyway.

Contrary to what you may believe, we're not doing an OS9-OSX type overhaul any time soon. More flash and features will be added, but underneath a lot of things don't change.

 

[SkyBell]

Of course it does. Why spend time and effort developing for a dead platform and architecture just for the few that might buy the OS? Apple improve their OS to sell computers primarily, and to make people upgrade secondarily.

Sure, they're a hardware company first, a software company second. No one's debating that.

"Snow Leopard" is supposedly going to be about cleaning up the code and optimising it, providing a firm base for future versions of the OS (ie: 10.7). Why bother doing that for a dead architecture that will be dropped for future OS iterations anyway.

Even though PPC is basically, yes, dead, there are more then a few people who still use a PPC machine as their main, including me. I have no intentions to get 10.6, as my machine probably won't be supported anyway, but those who run upper-end G4's and G5's will be royally tcked off if they're not supported. I think Apple isn't greedy enough to make people buy a new machine just because they think PPC is on its way out.

Snow Leopard will be about making the OS run like lightning on INTEL machines (for the future). There's no point releasing such an OS on PPC or spending the time developing it for PPC. You might want Apple to develop 10.6 for PPC, but that's irrelevant to Apple.

And if they don't release 10.6 in PPC form how will it make your current computer any less capable than it is now? If it suits your needs now the fact that a newer OS is out will not change that.

Like I said, I personally don't care about 10.6, or even 10.5 for that matter. Also like I said, there are hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people out there who still use PPC on a daily basis.

Let me ask you a question. Do you need 10.6? No. Do you need 10.5? No. Nobody needs any of this stuff. Heck, do we need a GUI? No, but it makes our lives a lot easier, right? Features that let us do things faster and better right? But we don't actually need this stuff. But as long as these things are being developed, people are going to want it. People who are on PPC, at least a few of them, are going to want it. Their machines are good enough to run 10.6, so why not let them have it?

 

[jf8]

Yep.

Better be FREE or somebody's gonna get sued...


You can't sell a fix. Period.

Yes they can. Apple and Microsoft usually don't charge for major bugfix packs (point releases, service packs), but they could if they wanted to. This move wouldn't be very popular with their customers, though.

Some vendors will require a support contract beyond a certain amount of time for any updates at all, while others choose to release free fixes for major security issues only. For example, enterprise versions of Red Hat and SuSe require a subscription for bugfixes.

 

[Little Endian]

PowerPC is far from dead

Well it's been almost 2.5 years since apple started introducing intel based machines and almost 2 years since they stopped producing PowerPC based machines. I wonder how much of the Mac user base is on Intel after 2.5 years? If anyone knows please let us know.

I reckon though that intel based machines still make up less than 50% of the mac user base. I think Power PC still makes up more than half of Mac users and 6 months from now in Jan 2009 Power PC will still make up about half the mac users out there. If PowerPC is dropped in the next revision of OSX it will be sad indeed. I still use classic applications from time to time on my G5 and I still rely on Rosetta on my Core 2 Duo imac and MacBook Pro.

BTW even after 2.5 years since Apple's switch to Intel my nearly three year old quad core 2.5Ghz G5 still thrashes my 2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo intel machines as if they were rag dolls. PowerPC is far from dead performance wise especially the late model PowerMac G5s. The only machines that Apple currently offers that can beat my G5 is the Mac Pro line and even then my G5 still holds it's own when running non UB apps.

 

[SkyBell]

Well it's been almost 2.5 years since apple started introducing intel based machines and almost 2 years since they stopped producing PowerPC based machines. I wonder how much of the Mac user base is on Intel after 2.5 years? If anyone knows please let us know.

I reckon though that intel based machines still make up less than 50% of the mac user base. I think Power PC still makes up more than half of Mac users and 6 months from now in Jan 2009 Power PC will still make up about half the mac users out there. If PowerPC is dropped in the next revision of OSX it will be sad indeed. I still use classic applications from time to time on my G5 and I still rely on Rosetta on my Core 2 Duo imac and PowerBook.

BTW even after 2.5 years since Apple's switch to Intel my nearly three year old quad core 2.5Ghz G5 still thrashes my 2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo intel machines as if they were rag dolls. PowerPC is far from dead performance wise especially the late model PowerMac G5s. The only machines that Apple currently offers that can beat my G5 is the Mac Pro line and even then my G5 still holds it's own when running non UB apps.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This guy still loves his PPC machine, has zero reason to replace it. And he shouldn't have to repplace it just to run 10.6 Apple, us PPC users will upgrade eventually, just give us a little time. You need to support us for just a little while longer!