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nice post! i really liked that article.

… [Annoyingly the question as to whether you could stack RAM as something akin to a PCI board and link it into the mainboard to boost the RAM levels even higher isn't touched on]. …

that would be awesome! though i dont think PCI Express 2.0 would be speedy enough but im not too knowledgeable on this.
 
Gestures

So when are the new gestures going to be rolled out?
Even Toshiba has a TV in the labs now that can identify simple ones.
With all the patents, why the wait? Unless they're going to roll some uber webcams with l33t features, why the wait?
 
one thing that im looking forward to in snow leopard is the smaller os size. apple claims to have reduced the size of the os. i think that thats great! it gives the user more accessible hard drive space from what apple gives them.
 
one thing that im looking forward to in snow leopard is the smaller os size. apple claims to have reduced the size of the os. i think that thats great! it gives the user more accessible hard drive space from what apple gives them.

Snow Leopard is supposed to have a reduced "footprint" on the disk mainly due, as I understand it, to common library code not being reproduced in every application, and to some extent the removal of PPC code. It really has nothing to do with the size of the OS.
 
Snow Leopard is supposed to have a reduced "footprint" on the disk mainly due, as I understand it, to common library code not being reproduced in every application, and to some extent the removal of PPC code. It really has nothing to do with the size of the OS.

ooh.
now when you say that, does that have anything to do with rosetta? when looking in my activity monitor, (i just recently got a mac. im trying to learn the intricacies of it) it tells me that some processes work with a Power Pc processor. then when i try to sample the process, it tells me its using rosetta. so what im trying to get at is that with snow leopard, would less applicators have access to rosetta? would applications have to be written in the universal binary to work?
 
rosetta is an emulator for powerpc for intel macs
if you have an intel mac and you want to run a powerpc application, it is run via rosetta. it works for small apps, but big apps work craptastic.

the whole "reducing" the powerPC code (or removing it completely) means that they are encouraging the drop of ppc code in general.
so no, there wont be universal binary, there will be "intel binary".

the size isnt really doubled, the universal binary consists of two codes, but the resources are the same (images, sounds)

so in short, snow leopard will be an attempt to make mac intel only.
if 10.6 holds, we can expect that manufactures will either produce 2 different versions of the same app (one ppc, one intel) or continue doing uni binaries, or completely dropping the ppc code (not likely because ppc is still widely used)
 
the whole "reducing" the powerPC code (or removing it completely) means that they are encouraging the drop of ppc code in general.
so no, there wont be universal binary, there will be "intel binary".

the size isnt really doubled, the universal binary consists of two codes, but the resources are the same (images, sounds)

However, in the screen shots we saw following the developer release of Snow Leopard, the size of apps was dramatically reduced and the binary was still identified as "universal." The reason given for the reduced size, IIRC, was that Apple had developed a new way of delivering library code so that it did not have to be included in every application binary.

so in short, snow leopard will be an attempt to make mac intel only.
if 10.6 holds, we can expect that manufactures will either produce 2 different versions of the same app (one ppc, one intel) or continue doing uni binaries, or completely dropping the ppc code (not likely because ppc is still widely used)

I expect that software developers will very quickly drop PPC development on new products. If Apple is no longer supporting it in new OS releases, other developers will follow their lead.
 
PPC support

For those wanting - there's a decent chat going on about PPC support on this page 2 thread.
 
I expect that software developers will very quickly drop PPC development on new products. If Apple is no longer supporting it in new OS releases, other developers will follow their lead.

See this is what I don't want to see happen. Then again, I am unsure how long OS 9 was supported until they eventually dropped it. My PowerBook is still going quite strong, I am reluctant to actually give it up as I tend to use it here and there. As far as Snow Leopard goes ... I just hope the release isn't as rocky as Leopard was. What a blunder that was!
 
I am unsure how long OS 9 was supported until they eventually dropped it.

It depends on how you define "supported." The last version (9.2.2) came out in December 2001 (which was in the middle of the development cycle for 10.1). But that only contained improvements for Classic mode, i.e., it was only meant for the context of OS X.

As for which PPC Macs ran OS 9 natively, you can check this compatibility table. Of course it ran under Classic on PPC Macs through 10.4.11, meaning almost all of your classic applications were supported in a sense until Leopard's introduction less than a year ago.
 
I just want to say, this is probably the most interesting analysis post I've ever read!
t0mat0, really good writing there.. Well done!
 
I think I commented on that just a few posts back in this thread (#58).
Could that be an improved framework for apps that will run on x86/PPC on pre-10.6 releases, not necessarily related to SL running on PPCs? I heard PPC won't be supported by SL, which is hearsay so don't take my word for it.

There are already SL dev builds, btw. Do they run on PPC?
 
Could that be an improved framework for apps that will run on x86/PPC on pre-10.6 releases, not necessarily related to SL running on PPCs? I heard PPC won't be supported by SL, which is hearsay so don't take my word for it.

There are already SL dev builds, btw. Do they run on PPC?

The Snow Leopard developer release is Intel-only (i.e., it will only boot on Intel, but it does contain universal binaries), and all indications are that the final SL release will be Intel-only. (I think we certainly would have seen a developer version for PPC by now if that were not the case.)

I doubt very much that Apple will backport any significant OS changes. Intel systems can move to SL. If they were going to support these changes for PPC it would be easier to provide a SL build for PPC rather than make the huge effort to backport. PPC, it appears at present, will simply be cut loose.

IMO the "reduced footprint" is mostly about the Macbook Air and other future systems that will use SSDs, which at present have very limited storage capacity.
 
Let's throw this out there:

Would the whole rumor about the "brick" be about a discrete modular Mac system, that could take advantage of Snow Leopard?
It wouldn't take much for the XServe to take up the higher hardware limits, in terms of hard drive, memory, graphics cards/GPUs, CPUs.

It's already somewhat modular, with front loading hard drives. Also, with something like the "Promise VTrak E-Class RAID Subsystem" you can "bolt on" 12TB or so of hard drive space for a server under SL. Presuming you wouldn't be adding CPUs too dynamically if you were using XServes. However, You could use a more Mac mini modular approach, to making a cluster system that way, also.

So, could the brick be Mac Mini cluster capabilities, but able to stand alone too, or be about a Xserve, XSan like system for Snow Leopard?

Nehalem
China's PC Online has apparently got a rough benchmark ahead of IDF next month -seee here (you can run the original article through google if you google the url).

They looked at the quad-core Core i7 , a 2.93GHz Extreme 940, which is slated for ~November, and compared to the Core 2 QX9770. The Nehalem chip performed better the QX9770 processor in most benchmarks, apart from the Super PI 1.4 benchmark, and some of the games - including DirectX 9 CoD 4, Half Life 2 and CoH which is DirectX 10. I wonder what Snow Leopard can crank out of them? Will performance be better?
 
Mac Pro Snow Leopard Supercomputer, with (Gainestown 2 sockets, and some Intel Nehalem (Core i7) goodness):

I'd think it would look a little like this setup:

Youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X5uH_lR3yc

Virginia Tech 2003: G5 supersomputer - 64 bit cluster versus a custom designed supercomputer.
This was one of the first large scale system - 1100 G5s. Doing >10 TeraFloPs

Built in < 3 Weeks, add Infiniband to couple all the G5s.
$5.2 million at the time - Heck - a multi-millionaire could make one of these :D
And it had a decent bang for its buck. (Look at Virgina Tech at #3, versus Los Alamos with just 3 more Tflops, but a cool 42x the cost?) Wonder who''s going to step up to the plate?

Edit: Some More info: System X
Where: Virginia Tech
What: Mac HPC Supercomputer
Built: 2003
Teraflops: 12.25 Teraflops, (20.24 peak)
Top 500: Last ranked: #47 (November, 2006) (one of the most powerful systems categorized by TOP500 as "self made")

Compute Nodes:
  • 1100 Apple Xserve G5 cluster nodes with the following specifications:
  • Dual 2.3 GHz PowerPC 970FX processors
  • 4 GB ECC DDR400 (PC3200) RAM
  • 80 GB S-ATA hard disk drive
  • One Mellanox Cougar InfiniBand 4x HCA

Compile Nodes:
3 Apple Xserve G5 nodes with the following specifications:
  • Dual 2.3 GHz PowerPC 970FX processors
  • 4 GB ECC DDR400 (PC3200) RAM
  • 3x250 GB S-ATA hard disk drive

Storage:
SAN
6 Apple Xserve RAID units
1 Sun X4200 NFS server
Total available user stoarage: 16T

Network:
4 SilverStorm Technologies 9120 InfiniBand core switches
- 4X InfiniBand, 10 Gbps bidirectional port speed
64 SilverStorm Technologies 9024 InfiniBand leaf switches
- 4X InfiniBand, 10 Gbps bidirectional port speed
6 Cisco Systems 240-port 4506 Gigabit Ethernet switches

Compilers:
IBM XL Fortran for Mac OS X
IBM XLC for Mac OS X
gcc 3.3 for Mac OS X


Snow Leopard Update
For those special developers, an update has come through with a new build

Apple is quietly preparing to equip some of its developers with the first pre-release copies of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard since an inaugural build was issued to attendees during its annual developers conference in June, AppleInsider has learned.

People familiar with the company's plans suggest that distribution will be extremely limited, as the software is believed to have undergone a number of enhancements since its earlier appearance. Members of the vast Apple Developer Connection network are among those who are unlikely to see the new builds, they say, at least during the initial phase.

Presumably at some point they've got to start testing some of the bigger features, and in the process we might be seeing some benchmarks. More infomation before the MacBooks get a refresh (mid October?)? Wouldn't say no :)

Snow Leopard & ZFS
Quick query with those following this thread - Is this article right in saying both SL and SL Server edition will get ZFS? Arn said only SL Server was confirmed back in August here
 

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Virginia Tech 2003: G5 supersomputer - 64 bit cluster versus a custom designed supercomputer.
This was one of the first large scale system - 1100 G5s. Doing >10 TeraFloPs

Was browsing for SL news/discussion and came across your post. Since the initial release they (gotta call out my Hokies!) upgrade the system to Xserves.

http://www.arc.vt.edu/arc/SystemX/index.php

Unfortunately (?), it doens't look like they have upgraded the system since. If you could accomplish an updated version with quad quote chiped systems, I imagine the result would be significantly higher!
 
Cheers :)
Well we could guesstimate what it could be, nothing like going hypothetical and extrapolating wildy on macrumors.com ;)

The original was 1,100 standard desktop Power Mac G5s. By upgrading to 1,100 dual 2.3GHz Xserve G5s, they made it 15% faster. (Apparently doing so after "negotiating an exclusive deal with Apple to produce the custom built Macs" reference)
The rebuild cost $600,000, and they got 50 additional nodes within that price. (Apple didn't offer 2.3 GHz XServes till 2005 for other people).

The 2000 2.0 GHz was pushing out ~4.5 GigaFLoPs


(Aside: XServes insides - they are good enough to be reminded about here
Current system if they went XServe today with $6 million:


Lets max it out at the Apple Store:

1,100 XServes:

# Two 3.0GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (8-core)
# 8GB (4x2GB) (They go BTO up to 32GB)
80GB Serial ATA ADM
# Quad-channel 4Gb Fibre Channel card with PCI Express x16 riser
XSan 2
Some bits & bobs comes to around $11,000 an XServe
$6 million over $11,000 gives you about 545 of current day XServes, and a RAID susbstem thrown on top to make up the difference

545 of these could churn out ~ <insert>Teraflops.

Other systems include UCLA's 128-Dual-processor G5 Xserves called the "Dawson" Cluster and got 1.21 TeraFlops. (what they do with it here)

Some XServe reviews:
here,
Harpertown 2008 review here

Tom Yager:

But the sum of Xserve's flaws is overwhelmed by the system's unique leading-edge, user and administrator-centric engineering. Xserve is far better than the commodity server that the Intel x86 market expects. But what really blasts Apple's competition is OS X Server. The present Tiger (10.4) release is more than a match for much more expensive commercial Linux, and far more capable out of the box than Windows 2003 Server. Early next year, OS X Server Leopard (10.5) will transform Apple's already industry-leading Xserve, including the model reviewed here, into an unimaginably feature-rich native 64-bit server platform. And guess what? When you buy it, you're done paying for it, and all of the services you have to buy, build or rent with Windows, Linux or pay-as-you-go service outsourcing, are installed on every Xserve's boot drive. Call me old fashioned, but I prefer Xserve's buy once, run forever approach.

Other possibilities - Server coming to models below the Mac Pro? Of note - If a Mac Pro could be a Server with Leopard, could a late 08 or 09 iMac, or low end Mac Pro, or high end Mac mini take on that role? Apple wants 64-bit through and through - it's got the Open Group Unix certification for Leopard - so where will it go with Snow Leopard? Presumably that power could make lower end models do more things.


One area not really covered in the press yet, is that servers, alongside gamers, consumers, and pros, could get a real big juicy performance boost from Snow Leopard. And so the XServe may well be pushed to the fore a bit more than Apple's usual quiet reticence. IT does look rich but simple and powerful) - there are seemingly a lot of folks who actually are averse to this! Anyhow, just another area of Snow Leopard, which ties in with HPC. As far as I can see, OS X Server really is a great server app platform.

Will Apple be able to get it out to market before Vista is dispatched at Redmond, and Windows 7 is rolled out? WIth virtualisation, it might be a very interesting prospect for Small to Medium Businesses to run XP / Vista on virtualisation, and use an OS Server (especially with the price difference on licensing (though if anyone has a critique on that, please correct me!)) (From here it seems you could run under virtualisation on the server, WIndows Server 203 if you wanted to. Consolidating Windows servers with Xserve.


<to be filled in>

I can see a bit why they would have gone XServe over using all those Macs - Space and simplicity for one. It would be interesting to see the performance per buck comparing a cluster using say mac minis/PowerMacs, versus XServes. But that's another time.

(From this quote: "Squeezing as many cores and DIMM sockets as possible into one rack unit isn't a priority when you're scaling out for fine-grained load balancing and minimal response time to requests from users." Maybe Snow Leopard Server will be a quiet revolution. The current Leopard Server software seems seemingly nearly as easy to use as Leopard itself? Anyone agree, disagree, or see where Snow Leopard could improve? Will Apple push CalDAV? Will they do a demo like this again (6 min 50 in)? Will they open up from intranet to internet?

Having relooked at the SL Server page they actually are touting quite a few features of how Snow Leopard will really mesh with iPhones -

e.g.
Remote Access
Secure remote access to your business network has never been more critical than in today’s increasingly mobile world. Snow Leopard Server delivers push notifications to mobile users outside your firewall, and a proxy service gives them secure remote access to email, address book contacts, calendars, and select internal websites.

This could be just as much for iPhones/Touches as general Macs. For me, one of the really big uses would be to be able to assign rooms in a building to have a calendar/some similar system - to then be able to access that on the phone, and book a room - then send that information as an invite. (Redmond has it - from an old Scoble video showing them demoing their new building).

- Make the wiki/blog /podcast facilities front ended? The SL page shows a wiki running through an iPhone, so what gives?
- iCal Server 2 means calendaring & scheduling service to the iPhone - including "group and shared calendars, push notifications, the ability to send email invitations to non-iCal Server users, and a browser-based application that lets users access their calendars on the web when they’re away from their Mac.
- Address Book Server bringing to the iPhone the ability to "remotely access contact information without the schema limitations and security issues associated with LDAP"
- Could you actually push a podcast from the iPhone? Record it with a mic in, then wifi it out? It seems nearly doable - would be big for podcasting.

Heck - on the back of this, we have to remember that iPhone v3 may very well be coming quite close to WWDC 2009. i.e. the summer of 2009, where we'll have Nehalem, Snow Leopard, and maybe even an ACD/mac mini refresh.


Genius?
As an aside - Genius - Having been sorting out some of my Music Library - Will iTunes X bring decent tagging features? It would be interesting to find oiut how it works (just ID metadata? Guessing it isn't a musical fingerprint currently).
 

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Graphics chips, Apple

Predicted:
There would be early signs of preparation for Snow Leopard in 8-9 months:
No Physical Trackpad Buttons
Clickable Glass Trackpad, GPUs
MacBook Pros with Hybrid SLI, Extra Long Battery
Apple Migrating to NVIDIA Chipsets in new MacBooks

"The main two things being potentially more gestures, linking in with potentially there being no physical buttons for the MBP, and also the graphics card choice."

And what do you know - 4 finger gestures, they're updating the gestureverse e.g to switch apps, open expose.

MacBooks, MacBook Airs and the MacBook Pro will be getting a built in NVIDIA 9400M GPU - which means they'll be able to apparently drive 30-inch Cinema Display as an external monitor (via DisplayPort technology that will support an adapter for Dual-Link DVI to be able to drive a 30" monitor.

NVIDIA GeForce 9400 M - Chipset & GPU on one die - 70% is the GPU, with 16 parallel graphic cores, 54GFLoPs of graphics performance.

MacBook Pros also gets an extra, dedicated 9600M GT GPU:

With GPUs soon to become part of the power equation of a computer, the raw CPU isn't the only thing even for computation, let alone overall contribution to the power of the computer.

These 2 GPUs could
combine to support Hybrid SLI, where the integrated graphics chip would assist the GPU to boost performance when the MacBook Pro is plugged to a power socket while the dedicated chip would be shut down when the system was unplugged from power socket to lower overall graphics power consumption.

Prince McLean aka roughlydrafted.com's Daniel Eran Dilger:

Apple hasn't yet outlined if it is possible for the system to team the processing power of both GPUs for use at once, either at the present or in the future under Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, which is being designed specifically to spin processor intensive tasks off onto multiple GPUs. Snow Leopard's OpenCL intends to open up the processing potential of GPUs for general purpose math, not just video or graphics related operations.

Edit: Seems like it might be possible to now load a MacBook and MacBook Pro with 8GB of memory (though currently only 4GB would be used officially):

Also up in the air is the memory ceiling. Officially, Apple supports no more than 4GB. However, the DDR3 notebook memory necessary for an upgrade is readily available in individual 4GB sticks, theoretically permitting a well-heeled owner to load the MacBooks with as much as 8GB of RAM. Without posted support documents or technical information from NVIDIA, though, it's difficult to tell whether it's an artificial or hard-coded limit Apple mentions.

But Prince McLean put a dampner on that one here

Bumped Graphics, DDR3, Higher capacities through 4GB sticks. All a warm up to the next round of Macs, i'd say.

Edit: Possibly even the 17 inch MacBook Pro? With a month or two delay, Apple could feasibly get a Nehalem processor in there.

Dates:
IDF Taiwan (Taipei): October 20 – 21, 2008 (Atom launch/new info)
4th Quarter Earnings call, (3Q 2008 )
PDC2008 is October 27th - 30th Where Microsoft will give some details for Windows 7.
Windows Hardware Developer Central (WINHDC) is November 4th onwards.

Edit: More info on Snow Leopard and GPUs, now MSAppleM have cottoned on a bit ;)
 

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Which Mac is going to get the pre-Snow Leopard treatment next?

iMacs?
Mac Minia at MWSF? They could redesign the Mini to be a pocket rocket if they souped up the graphics...
I almost get the feeling Apple has made the engineering design side of the MB/MBP's great in this refresh, but that the innards capable of driving Snow Leopard really come in the next update, which, if you count 8-9 months, would be ~June-July 2009, just around / after WWDC. Whether the 17" MBP would get a Nehalem update we'll see. We have no clue yet as to what the current new versions of MB/MBP can do/ what hardware they can utilise (esp with Memory above 4GB, or using the NVIDIA GPUs).

Will add details, but mainly, the iMacs and Mac Pro, and even the Mini could wait till MSWF/Nehalem. Adding more graphics chips does mean some amount of reordering on the mainboard, and or elsewhere.
 
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