Mac OS X Lion Notes: iOS Scroll Bars, Any Corner Resizing, Dock Changes

[moderately]

reading incomprehension

And clearly you don't have to do that. I stopped quitting apps the second day I had my iPhone4 and I don't have any issue with peformance.

You are trying hard on managing something that has been managed and has no need to be done.

I did the same as you- how else the 76 icons in the switcher bar? If there had been blue lights on the bar I might have thought I was doing something useful. As a "recent app" list the bar is good, as a task manager it is useless and it seems unneeded for performance.

So I start to suspect that while in KnightWRX's case the blue lights are a time saver, some people may end up shutting down programs in Lion that are quiescent, thinking that they are managing memory (if the lights return unchanged).

 

[Fraaaa]

Jon- I do hope you haven't gone away yet, I am still back a page and wanted to join the fun.

I am running 4.1 on my 4g touch. Early on I thought there might be some benefit to closing out programs in the "multitasking bar" or whatever it is supposed to be called. So I did some of that. But I couldn't tell if an app was running or not and I didn't notice any improvement in speed after closing things. So I quit using it for that. Every once in a while I want to jump back to a recently used app and it is useful for that.

iOS doesn't give you any indication of which apps are running
This is the case. It takes me 19 swipes to get to the end of the "multitasking" list. So I have 76 icons in that task bar. and 56 apps installed on my device. "Useless" is a fair descriptive. Or to use your words:

If an app quit unexpectedly you'll notice that there is no window open, as I notice on my iPhone, and then clixk again to open.

If it still opening you'll have the wonderful spinning beach ball of death.

Problem solved.

The icon only bounces a few times after you open it. With programs that take a while to load up (i'm looking at mainly you, Firefox. You too Word), you then are reliant on that dot to see if they are still loading up or if they quit.

And yeah, if it quits you do have to start it again. That's the point! They take a while to load and I need to know if I have to try to start them again or if they are still loading! Without that dot, how do you propose I do that?

 

[moderately]

Fraaaa
Are you responding to me or tigress666?

 

[GnillGnoll]

Managing an offline mode that might or might not exist is more complicated than just quitting the app. You people try way too hard to justify the missing lights.

I'm not trying to justify the missing lights. I'm arguing that an "active" indicator is much more useful than a "running" indicator. And if you have the latter there is little need for the former. But to implement it right probably requires some application support.

The shortcoming in Mac OS X is that to get to more detailed information you have to keep clicking (or swiping or typing). Apple needn't copy Microsoft, but if Apple could just come up with an elegant way of displaying the more detailed information (what specific apps, windows, files and documents are open, and where they are should you wish to move to them) at a glance without having to do anything, then that would go a long way in streamlining the whole workflow for people.

The first part sounds very much like a taskbar, but to show where everything is without having to do anything seems like a recipe for wasting a lot of screen space to me.

So I have 76 icons in that task bar. and 56 apps installed on my device. "Useless" is a fair descriptive.

If you use it as a task switcher instead of a task killer, it is actually very useful.

 

[KnightWRX]

I'm not trying to justify the missing lights. I'm arguing that an "active" indicator is much more useful than a "running" indicator. And if you have the latter there is little need for the former. But to implement it right probably requires some application support.

Which again, is much more complicated that simply quitting the app altogether. Also, any kind of mecanism to "offline" apps would be different from app to app.

Again, light is on, click icon, CMD+Q. It's fast and easy and consistence for every app I know I want stopped when plugging into my office network or getting on tethering.

Seriously, what was even wrong with the lights to justify removing them ?

 

[Thunderbird]

.


The first part sounds very much like a taskbar, but to show where everything is without having to do anything seems like a recipe for wasting a lot of screen space to me.

Well, if the taskbar is any indication, it proves you don't need to waste a lot of space to have all that visual information. Besides, one could always have an auto-hide option.

 

[jasonbitesapple]

Scrollbars and little dots to show what's open are little pieces that fit perfectly into the OS. We need that stuff, or at least I do. I probably won't get Lion until my Sims series has moved on.

 

[tigress666]

If an app quit unexpectedly you'll notice that there is no window open, as I notice on my iPhone, and then clixk again to open.

If it still opening you'll have the wonderful spinning beach ball of death.

Problem solved.

No, you don't get it. I don't have a window open for quite a while and why should I have to switch to the program to see if it's opening if I can just move my mouse to the side (my launch bar is on the side) to check while I'm using an application that has already loaded? Your solution is a lot clunkier than what we have, so why do you think removing the dots is a *good* thing?!

The point is the dots do serve a purpose, taking them away takes away functionality that is a lot smoother to use, and I really don't see the benefit of taking the dots away. So basically it takes away functionality for no real reason!!!! The launch bar is much easier to see what is open than control - tab or tabbing to the app to see if the beach ball is going (not to mention it isn't always going when it's loading up the app).

Granted, hopefully Apple is smarter than that (it is just a beta) and have something to replace the dots with if they are getting rid of them. I'm glad to see Jobs acknowledge for example a touch screen monitor for a computer/laptop is not a good idea (it's awkward to use a touch screen that is standing up and it's easer to look at a screen when it's standing in front of you rather than laying on a table).

 

[MrBungleBear]

I want my...

I want my indicator "lights" - make it optional to have them or not in Prefs. I see no real value in putting in the work to remove them!

I wans to see my scroll bars at all times - not for info, really, although it helps for that too, but mostly so I can grab the scroll box/losenge and drag it around on the bar to move thru a doc quickly, especially a long doc. I don't want to have to swipe a zillion times to get half way thru a huge doc!! Again, make it optional in Prefs.

Each to their own, but this latest round of "enhancements" seems much more negative than positive for people who really want to work on their Macs! It might be nice and cosy for newbies, but I don't want to see the whole thing dumbed down for them at the expense of non-newbies losing elements of productivity and control.

Use the preferences to enable the spectrum of user needs and experience to co-exist.

G>

 

[Fraaaa]

Fraaaa
Are you responding to me or tigress666?

Sorry, yes I ment you. I don't know why tigress got quoted.

 

[Fraaaa]

No, you don't get it. I don't have a window open for quite a while and why should I have to switch to the program to see if it's opening if I can just move my mouse to the side (my launch bar is on the side) to check while I'm using an application that has already loaded? Your solution is a lot clunkier than what we have, so why do you think removing the dots is a *good* thing?!

The point is the dots do serve a purpose, taking them away takes away functionality that is a lot smoother to use, and I really don't see the benefit of taking the dots away. So basically it takes away functionality for no real reason!!!! The launch bar is much easier to see what is open than control - tab or tabbing to the app to see if the beach ball is going (not to mention it isn't always going when it's loading up the app).

Granted, hopefully Apple is smarter than that (it is just a beta) and have something to replace the dots with if they are getting rid of them. I'm glad to see Jobs acknowledge for example a touch screen monitor for a computer/laptop is not a good idea (it's awkward to use a touch screen that is standing up and it's easer to look at a screen when it's standing in front of you rather than laying on a table).

That is what you guys still can't deal with. If you want to use a program and you don't know if it is open, just click on the icon and use it. If it's open and you didn't know, you don't need to close it as it won't affect performance, this has been tested in iOS. Moreover Apple introduced the -don't worry to close your app- feature ages ago. You click on the x and the program is still open, just the window is not. Now they are doing the next step.

Look, we can argue on the lights a lot. If Apple removed it in the demo it probably will be in Lion that way.

You are just used to it because you had it for a decade, and when people are used to things, they are hard to let go. I bet you'll get use to this sometime in the future and you'll understand that you didn't need it in the first place. You'll have to give it a go.

If still can't deal with it, I bet that there will be some developer that will make a piece of program to have that back.

Don't get a headache about it.

 

[KnightWRX]

That is what you guys still can't deal with. If you want to use a program and you don't know if it is open, just click on the icon and use it. If it's open and you didn't know, you don't need to close it as it won't affect performance, this has been tested in iOS.

And again my dense friend : If I am to connect to my job's network I need to make sure Skype, amongst other apps, is closed. Not because it affects performance, not because of some kind of resource management, but because it is prohibited at my place of work.

Currently : Dot under Skype icon, click it and CMD+Q. No dot ? Plug in!
Lion : Use Mission Control/CMD+TAB or other method first which requires an input, look for Skype icon/Window. There ? Click it and CMD+Q, not there ? Plug in!

Lion adds an annoyance that wasn't there before. Sure I can still tell if the app is running or not and I can still close it down, but why remove my visual cue of it which made this so much simpler ?

The dot is useful. If you don't use it yourself, it's not harming you. But it is darn useful to tell at a glance without any input if an app is running or not. Why are you trying so hard to tell us what works or not for us ? I don't try to tell you what works for you.

Feature removal for the sake of removal is never a good thing. The dots under the apps don't even mess with any kind of dumbed down "App pause/freeze/save state" feature that people are trying to point out as the removal of the dots. You can still have an app dump its state to hard drive and freeze up with the dot there. Why you would want an entire app to freeze and dump its state on a modern desktop computer is a mystery. Most VMs for modern OSes can already page out idle apps without "freezing" them and page them in quickly when they start up again (after receiving input or after a child has returned and the parent can start processing again).

All this "freeze app and save state" thing is bull to begin with. Cooperative multi-tasking died in the 90s and even then, it was late dying thanks to Apple and Microsoft.

 

[MacKeeper-fan]

Wow, the removal of indicator lights is a really low blow... this is really frustrating what they are doing.

 

[KnightWRX]

Wow, the removal of indicator lights is a really low blow... this is really frustrating what they are doing.

Let's keep things in perspective. These are just insinuations based on screenshots. There has been no evidence that the lights are really removed (the screenshot might be doctored a bit) or that some kind of equivalent mecanism has been put in place.

Until there's an actual announcement from Apple, this is all heresay.

 

[tigress666]

Lion adds an annoyance that wasn't there before. Sure I can still tell if the app is running or not and I can still close it down, but why remove my visual cue of it which made this so much simpler ?

The dot is useful. If you don't use it yourself, it's not harming you. But it is darn useful to tell at a glance without any input if an app is running or not. Why are you trying so hard to tell us what works or not for us ? I don't try to tell you what works for you.

Feature removal for the sake of removal is never a good thing. The dots under the apps don't even mess with any kind of dumbed down "App pause/freeze/save state" feature that people are trying to point out as the removal of the dots.

Thank you!

So far I've seen arguements that I don't need the dot but I havne't seen any arguements on why the dot needs to be removed. Fine, you don't think I need the dot, I think I do. What does it harm anyone else they haev the dot? Why is it a *good* thing to remove it?! So why remove it?

On top of that, I also agree that having the scroll bars stay visible is also a good thing and I dislike the idea they are going to have them hidden. I'd say make it an option so people can choose, but I have also accepted that while I like Mac OS, unfortunately it does come with the attitude of you'll like it as it is, we don't do choice.

I guess I'll just have to choose to if Lion has anything enticing enough to make up for the bad interface changes (which as I mentioned before may not even be what we think, it is months away before they are going to release it).

 

[arkmannj]

I want my indicator "lights" - make it optional to have them or not in Prefs. I see no real value in putting in the work to remove them!

I wans to see my scroll bars at all times - not for info, really, although it helps for that too, but mostly so I can grab the scroll box/losenge and drag it around on the bar to move thru a doc quickly, especially a long doc. I don't want to have to swipe a zillion times to get half way thru a huge doc!! Again, make it optional in Prefs.

Each to their own, but this latest round of "enhancements" seems much more negative than positive for people who really want to work on their Macs! It might be nice and cosy for newbies, but I don't want to see the whole thing dumbed down for them at the expense of non-newbies losing elements of productivity and control.

Use the preferences to enable the spectrum of user needs and experience to co-exist.

G>

+1

I use the visible scroll bars all the time (moving my mouse over them to make them visible would slow me down in the things I do each day) I likewise also use the dots on the dock almost consistently (and constantly) with what I'm doing throughout the day. If I have to launch Mission Control, or move my mouse over something, etc.. that will be very disruptive to how I work. It would be like needing to pull a lever in my car each time I wanted to check what speed I was driving. I don't want to do anything, I want to just glance at the speed periodically and naturally without thinking.

 

[moderately]

I don't see the removal of the dots as an intentional thing. As apple has redefined what an open or running program is it could be that the code that triggers the dot is no longer effective. Does anyone know if this is true? I hope they are caught up in something else.

I am not so confident they will be returned. There is a benefit to the masses if they need have no concern if a program is running or open. I could see Apple thinking that like a hammer (or a toaster) you just use what is there without turning it on. I am not trying to say this is good for all, I understand there are other needs. I too hope that Apple finds a way of restoring this functionality.

fraaa- I do not think you read well before you post. In my case you are trying to solve a problem I don't have (while stating I don't have a problem- what fun!) With tigress666 and KnightWRX you are simply not paying attention.

GnillGnoll- I was being harsh. "Useless" for managing apps. It is nice as an app switcher.

 

[NickK1066]

And again my dense friend :

Previously you stated I was condescending but you do raise some interesting points:

If I am to connect to my job's network I need to make sure Skype, amongst other apps, is closed. Not because it affects performance, not because of some kind of resource management, but because it is prohibited at my place of work.

Currently : Dot under Skype icon, click it and CMD+Q. No dot ? Plug in!
Lion : Use Mission Control/CMD+TAB or other method first which requires an input, look for Skype icon/Window. There ? Click it and CMD+Q, not there ? Plug in!

I agree with network utilisation issues, however there's nothing stopping OSes from enforcing Quality of Service for network I/O inconjunction with process management.

Lion adds an annoyance that wasn't there before. Sure I can still tell if the app is running or not and I can still close it down, but why remove my visual cue of it which made this so much simpler ?

The dot is useful. If you don't use it yourself, it's not harming you. But it is darn useful to tell at a glance without any input if an app is running or not. Why are you trying so hard to tell us what works or not for us ? I don't try to tell you what works for you.

I disagree. I can see a future OSX without the trappings of computer applications of old to the point of shifting away from WIMP.
However the thorn in OSX's side is multi-monitor support. Many times I've wished that the menubar/dock switched automatically to the monitor that had the focus.. not just window switching.

Feature removal for the sake of removal is never a good thing. The dots under the apps don't even mess with any kind of dumbed down "App pause/freeze/save state" feature that people are trying to point out as the removal of the dots. You can still have an app dump its state to hard drive and freeze up with the dot there. Why you would want an entire app to freeze and dump its state on a modern desktop computer is a mystery. Most VMs for modern OSes can already page out idle apps without "freezing" them and page them in quickly when they start up again (after receiving input or after a child has returned and the parent can start processing again).

All this "freeze app and save state" thing is bull to begin with. Cooperative multi-tasking died in the 90s and even then, it was late dying thanks to Apple and Microsoft.

My view is that applications are just processing services. The MVC model permiates the entire future of MacOS where you, as a user, will only be concerned with your view of data and interacting with it. The remaining infrastructure of FS/process management/network will not be visable.

Saving of apps isn't a problem. Nothing wrong with the system offloading unused applications and data - that's what virtual memory is for now.. this is just taking it a step further.

 

[Zc456]

Seriously, what was even wrong with the lights to justify removing them ?

Nothing. In fact considering Mac OS X manages windows differently then Windows itself and most Gnome/KDE-based Linux operating systems, it was actually quite useful. Compared to other systems, if you close an application, 90% of the time the application was still running. The indicators were the only way tell if you actually quite the app.

Forgive me if that's already been said.

 

[xshawn117x]

Nothing. In fact considering Mac OS X manages windows differently then Windows itself and most Gnome/KDE-based Linux operating systems, it was actually quite useful. Compared to other systems, if you close an application, 90% of the time the application was still running. The indicators were the only way tell if you actually quite the app.

Forgive me if that's already been said.

I really hate that. I hope in Mac OS Lion they'll allow us to just quit an app completely upon pressing the red button as you stated like in M$ Windows and GNU/Linux distros.

 

[arkmannj]

I really hate that. I hope in Mac OS Lion they'll allow us to just quit an app completely upon pressing the red button as you stated like in M$ Windows and GNU/Linux distros.

I'm probably in the minority and just a bit weird, but I actually LIKE the behavior of how Mac OS X currently manages windows. I like being able to close windows but still have the program itself still running. I find myself frustrated when I can't do that in MS Windows or Linux. I'm in the habit of always Command+Q to completely quit a program.

Maybe there will be a setting where we can adjust the functionality or the red X stop-light button to each our own tastes. Of course we'd probably need to do some terminal command, or edit a plist file becasue I doubt they would just make the option show in the Appearance Settings (System Preferences) that would be way to simple .

 

[Mal]

I'm probably in the minority and just a bit weird, but I actually LIKE the behavior of how Mac OS X currently manages windows. I like being able to close windows but still have the program itself still running. I find myself frustrated when I can't do that in MS Windows or Linux. I'm in the habit of always Command+Q to completely quit a program.

Maybe there will be a setting where we can adjust the functionality or the red X stop-light button to each our own tastes. Of course we'd probably need to do some terminal command, or edit a plist file becasue I doubt they would just make the option show in the Appearance Settings (System Preferences) that would be way to simple .

You're not in the minority, and there's no way they're changing that. It's at the core of the Mac OS experience. Apple has always worked with an application model, instead of a window model, and that's not changing until and unless they do their next complete rewrite from the ground up, which I don't expect for a long time. It would require a fundamental change in the way the system is designed to alter the behavior of that function.

jW

 

[tigress666]

You're not in the minority, and there's no way they're changing that. It's at the core of the Mac OS experience. Apple has always worked with an application model, instead of a window model, and that's not changing until and unless they do their next complete rewrite from the ground up, which I don't expect for a long time. It would require a fundamental change in the way the system is designed to alter the behavior of that function.

jW

It's been that way since the very first Mac OS. I personally prefer it but I grew up that way since I grew up with Mac. It always confused me that windows users were confused that if you closed the window the application stayed open and that you had to actually tell it to quit if you wanted to quit. It had seemed to me that it made sense if you wanted to quit the app you told it to quit, not just close the window (but that was cause I grew up and took it for granted that is how it worked).

 

[hemanwomanhater]

First of all, new here. Been lurking for a while but decided to chirp in.

I really doubt it's going to be as simple as just removing the indicator lights and leaving the system to handle itself while we forget everything we've opened.

I've never used an iOS device so I can't speak with that experience, but my guess is Lion will no longer have applications running in the background at all. The Auto-Save feature pointed out in the article makes me think that when you close an application it'll quit (i.e. instead of just closing the window... where the indicator light would be useful) and instantly save itself. When you click on it again, the application will restart itself, resumed from where you were when you closed the window. I think this approach makes a lot of sense, as it would automatically unclog itself as you go without being destructive, and it would eliminate the "hassle" of having to monitor and close idle applications ourselves; if anything, I think this approach would make our computers run more efficiently.

I'm just speculating but I would guess something similar to what I propose is in the works. I'm sure Apple isn't just abandoning its multitasking demographic!

 

[Mal]

First of all, new here. Been lurking for a while but decided to chirp in.

I really doubt it's going to be as simple as just removing the indicator lights and leaving the system to handle itself while we forget everything we've opened.

I've never used an iOS device so I can't speak with that experience, but my guess is Lion will no longer have applications running in the background at all. The Auto-Save feature pointed out in the article makes me think that when you close an application it'll quit (i.e. instead of just closing the window... where the indicator light would be useful) and instantly save itself. When you click on it again, the application will restart itself, resumed from where you were when you closed the window. I think this approach makes a lot of sense, as it would automatically unclog itself as you go without being destructive, and it would eliminate the "hassle" of having to monitor and close idle applications ourselves; if anything, I think this approach would make our computers run more efficiently.

I'm just speculating but I would guess something similar to what I propose is in the works. I'm sure Apple isn't just abandoning its multitasking demographic!

Nope, certainly not with many applications. After all, most applications don't require you to have a window open to be running, doing some type of tasking. Mail, Safari, iChat, and a number of other Apple programs, not to mention many third-party programs, are all running and can be doing tasks (things like checking for new emails, downloading files, and announcing your online presence/listening for incoming chat requests) are all handled without any need for a window to be open. Apple can't just quit applications when you close a window without reworking the entire application paradigm they've had for the past 15 years, even before OS X. It simply wouldn't make sense.

However, the idea of simply not knowing if an app is running or not isn't a huge deal, but I would propose Apple may consider a third option: App indicators that show the actual action being performed. Mail, for instance, can simply display a badge when new messages arrive, and if they implement a daemon that checks for messages while the app is closed, then it doesn't matter if the app is open or not, you'll still get your notifications when it's closed (would be best if you could choose whether it checks when the app is actually quit or not, but having the option would make the app indicator irrelevant). It could also show error notifications when there were problems. Safari could show a downloading indicator (a progress bar or simply a spinning icon would work fine), and iChat can use the standard Available, Away, Idle, Offline indicators to show that it's service is active.

For a good example of this, look at Transmission. I don't really need to see the app indicator to see if it's open and working, because it puts a badge on the icon indicating upload and download rates. If every app had this, then the app indicator lights would be become basically irrelevant.

jW