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Juventuz said:
I love Apple as much as the next person here, but let's be honest. We're slamming Windoze, but if we had as many users and if our OS was as popular as XP then we'd be experiencing the same problems. We're lucky that we're only 3-5% of the population of computer users, nobody really cares about us. If we were 40% then I could see us having more attacks and security updates.

I don't love Apple as much as the next person here; however, I don't believe that it would be a similar situation. Apple is not the only contributor to the operating system where Microsoft is. There are many things that are fixed prior to Apple applying the fixes to Mac OS X.

There would be more attacks, but fewer holes, and the fixes wouldn't likely cause other holes.
 
No operating system is going to be full-proof. At least concerned mac users are trying to let those in the know be notified, just up to Apple to listen and respond swiftly.

I wish we could just ignore Microsoft and stop comparing Apples to Oranges, it would save all this debate that we hear time and time again.
 
Juventuz said:
I love Apple as much as the next person here, but let's be honest. We're slamming Windoze, but if we had as many users and if our OS was as popular as XP then we'd be experiencing the same problems. We're lucky that we're only 3-5% of the population of computer users, nobody really cares about us. If we were 40% then I could see us having more attacks and security updates.
blueBomber said:
Exactly. This is why MacOS seems more secure; there are less people looking for holes.

Yes, but this is only *half* of the arguement. Yes, we would have more attacks and exploits if Apple had M$'s market share, but it would not be as bad as Windows. UNIX, and therefore Mac OS X, is more secure than Windows can ever be, or even dream about.
 
Calebj14 said:
Yes, but this is only *half* of the arguement. Yes, we would have more attacks and exploits if Apple had M$'s market share, but it would not be as bad as Windows. UNIX, and therefore Mac OS X, is more secure than Windows can ever be, or even dream about.
The BSD core of OSX is very secure - it's the Apple bits that sit on top that are the problem. They have obviously gone down the "convenience" route for their users, at the expense of secuirity. Applications automatically getting custom protocol handlers installed in your system simply by clicking a web link? What WERE they thinking?
 
Mozilla shows the same vulnerability. Why is the press focusing on Safari and IE? I would also venture to speculate that Netscape and Opera are (were) affected as well......
 
apollo8fan said:
Mozilla shows the same vulnerability. Why is the press focusing on Safari and IE? I would also venture to speculate that Netscape and Opera are (were) affected as well......

That associating protocols with applications is a system-wide setting all browsers (heck even all programs) can use might simply be too complex for them to understand.
After all it might be hard to explain that in a 5 second soundbite and still use enough buzzwords.
 
space2go said:
That associating protocols with applications is a system-wide setting all browsers (heck even all programs) can use might simply be too complex for them to understand.
After all it might be hard to explain that in a 5 second soundbite and still use enough buzzwords.

The point I'm trying to make is that Mozilla (or Netscape, or Opera, etc) users might feel an unwarranted sense of security. If the press is going to cover it, state that it's a browser-independent Mac OSX vulnerability, which it is, rather than a just browser vulnerability.

I think the reason they stated IE was its Micro$oft tie-in and Safari 'cuz it's arguably the most popular.
 
apollo8fan said:
Mozilla shows the same vulnerability. Why is the press focusing on Safari and IE? I would also venture to speculate that Netscape and Opera are (were) affected as well......

The reason is that Safari and Internet Exploder will proceed to open files after downloading them, unless the option is de-selected. The others will not do that by default or at all.
 

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Security through obscurity?

So many people seem to assert that the ONLY aspect of security is "how big a target" your OS is. If that's NOT the ONLY factor, then you can't say "Macs would have just as many security problems if more people used them."

Isn't it obvious that there ARE other aspects of security? Like design?

How likely your chosen OS is to be successfully and seriously attacked is the result of two main factors as I see it:

FLAWS
How many holes it has, how easy it is to break into, and how easy or hard it is to patch the problems quickly and without excessive cost or breaking other things. This is the biggest factor, and Microsoft clearly is the worst in this category. OS X, and UNIXes as a group, are far better.

BEING A TARGET
Oddly, security discussions/articles often not only gloss over the flaw factors, they focus on only a SINGLE target factor: Apple's smaller market share. It's true, that does make OS X a less tempting target. Undeniably. But other factors make OS X MORE tempting to hackers.

Factors that make OS X less tempting to attack:

* Fewer Macs than Windows PCs in the world
* Much more difficult to undertake
* Many people hate MS--for their monopoly crimes, and for being forced to use their often-inferior products

Factors the make OS X MORE tempting:

* Many people have a lot of jealousy/spite towards the Mac platform
* The challenge of it and prestige of succeeding
* Macs are worth the most points in cracking contests
* Cracking OS X involves some of the same skills as other UNIXes, which as a group ARE used for many high-profile targets (OS X is partly based on BSD for instance)
* Macs are themselves used for some high-profile targets--and increasingly so. Such as: educational and research institutions, biotech companies, large media/creative companies, Apple themselves, the US Army web site... and VA Tech's third most powerful supercomputer in the world.
* Mac OS X is gaining increasing and very positive attention in IT press--it's no longer off the IT radar

Given all of that, I'd say the motivation to make the first Mac OS X virus is pretty high. Not as high as for Microsoft--but not EVERY criminal programmer on the planet is going to limit themselves to just one platform. Nobody's succeeded yet in making an OS X virus or worm, but I highly doubt that NOBODY is trying. And they have had YEARS to do so.

And they'll succeed some day, maybe soon. There WILL be a first. But there will never be the constant security/privacy risks on the level that Windows users most accept. Not even if Macs catch up to Windows in user base... which won't be happening any time soon :)

So, assuming popularity vs. security is not the ONLY factor in security... is Mac actually designed better? And if so, how and why?

The short answer is that Macs are more secure because they are based on UNIX (BSD specifically), which has many flavors but none of them are as full of holes as Windows. The well-documented bad design decisions made in Windows, the complexity of hardware Windows has to deal with, and the bloat caused by legacy compatibility issues, will challenge Microsoft for the foreseeable future. Also, OS X is based on the open source Darwin variant of BSD--which makes security fixes developed by others easily applicable by Apple.

That's a quick answer, but oversimplified. I'm really not the one to do the subject justice. So here are some links to explore if you want to learn more--technical details of Windows' problems, strengths that OS X inherits from UNIX, etc.:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A34978-2003Aug23&notFound=true

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/18/technology/circuits/18POGUE-EMAIL.html?ex=1064894400&en=8a463b1175569a5f&ei=5070

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/32449.html

Also see the Dept. of Energy's security bulletins listed by OS here--note how many viruses and other security issues plague Windows (even the newest and most "secure" versions) vs. any UNIX version--especially Mac OS X:

http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletinsByType/bul_vendor_list.html

And if you think constant patching and patch-testing is an acceptable solution that makes Windows a good idea, read here:

http://www.csoonline.com/read/080103/patch.html

Patching and keeping Windows up to date is often an impossible task in the real world, since applying a fix can break something else critical to your business. That means spending huge time and cost to test patches--often more time than it takes attackers to exploit the problem.

And what about when MS tries to patch and fails?
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,39020381,39116180,00.htm

You can find new stories just about weekly on the latest critical flaw or virus for Microsoft Windows. So I won't gather those links--a search on Google or any news site will turn up lots. Suffice it to say that critical holes remain, unpatched, even in Microsoft's top, most "trustworthy" products--like Windows Server 2003. And these flaws are being exploited. Some flaws even wait for months and months and Microsoft never patches them at all.

And here's the much-discussed research paper (20 pp, full of excellent points) regarding how MS technology is designed to promote monopoly at the expense of security--with severe consequences:

http://www.ccianet.org/papers/cyberinsecurity.pdf

(Of course, one of the authors of that paper was actually fired from the company he helped found, due to Microsoft pressure. And many researchers who privately agreed with the project refused to take part for fear of Microsoft retaliation.)

So in summary... no OS is perfect, but Macs are designed better and are less susceptible to security problems than Windows. AND they are less of a target, too. What's not to love? :)
 
Well, now the BBC has got a wind of this and written this article: Apple Tackles Security Flaw. I guess, with all the articles on Window's flaws, Apple is due one. But I think everyone is going over the top on this.

Yes, Mac OS X is still vunerable to viruses, etc and, yes, its low user base and general hatred for Microsoft count against making a virus for it but that's not to say there aren't any security holes.

Not that any of these vunerabilities has ever really put anyone at risk. I say that Apple certainly releases the patches much quicker than Microsoft :D
 
johnnyjibbs said:
Well, now the BBC has got a wind of this and written this article: Apple Tackles Security Flaw. I guess, with all the articles on Window's flaws, Apple is due one. But I think everyone is going over the top on this.
Yes - it's not like it could delete all files your account can delete or run code of attackers choice or anything - oh wait...
johnnyjibbs said:
Not that any of these vunerabilities has ever really put anyone at risk. I say that Apple certainly releases the patches much quicker than Microsoft :D
Yes - three months - not bad for a vulnerability that can do all of the above.

Now we just need them to fix the parent exploit that made it possible. The vulnerability that has been fixed is insignificant next to the protocol handler exploit that is still in effect.
 
Skiniftz said:
The vulnerability that has been fixed is insignificant next to the protocol handler exploit that is still in effect.

right. i hope apple goes all the way and doesn't stop where it's easiest to do so. because osx is a unix, apple has far greater responsibility than in pre-osx era.
 
Children, children

Back to the subject at hand...

My mom called me this morning. When she tries to install the update, the little status bit at the bottom of the window tells her that the update failed and to run software update again. She's tried three times, all with the same result. My first instinct is to talk her through repairing her permissions, but are there any other things you can think of that would be causing this and/or can fix it and allow the update to successfully install?

BTW, she's running 10.2.
 
cleo said:
My mom called me this morning. When she tries to install the update, the little status bit at the bottom of the window tells her that the update failed and to run software update again. She's tried three times, all with the same result. My first instinct is to talk her through repairing her permissions, but are there any other things you can think of that would be causing this and/or can fix it and allow the update to successfully install?
This is the first report I've heard of a failed update installation. Your first instinct is a good instinct, cleo. There are no doubt various reasons an update could fail, but repairing permissions as a first step makes sense. The other easy thing to try would be to download the update instead of using Software Update. It can't hurt.
 
Software update couldn't download update...

Doctor Q said:
This is the first report I've heard of a failed update installation. Your first instinct is a good instinct, cleo. There are no doubt various reasons an update could fail, but repairing permissions as a first step makes sense. The other easy thing to try would be to download the update instead of using Software Update. It can't hurt.

I got the same problem. I quote error Software Setup error:

Security Update 2004-5-24: Could not download.

A networking error has occurred: timed out (-1001). Make sure you can connect to the Internet, then try again.

That was after trying to repair disk permissions.

So, I downloaded directly as you suggested and that worked.

Cheers Daniel
 
What about us 10.2.6 users?

My PowerMac G3 will not run 10.2.8 stably for any length of time so I had to revert back to 10.2.6 which runs flawlessly for me.

It's a shame to see that 10.2.8 is a requirement of this security patch, or is it just me being blind?

It seems Office 2004 has this limitation also.
 
Changes needed at Apple

To date, Apple has been in a good position - far less vulnerable than MS. However, this incident shows that they are hopelessly inept at dealing with issues like these. This issue was known to them months ago, they've patched a minor part of the problem, and are managing the PR very badly.

Appoint a visible head of security issues, disclose fully what the issue was and why it was important to fix it, and make sure that there are no more 'Apple was unavailable for comment' which seems to fott every article about this.

Come on Apple, make some good decisions or you'll never make headway in the corporate space (at least) again.
 
Beware a double-standard. MS doesn't always jump up and offer comment to every news outlet who contacts them on the latest flaw of the week.
 
I attended a Microsoft seminar late last year to see what Windows Server 2003 had to offer. So I'm sitting there where the Microsoft employee is bad-mouthing Linux stating that it's got more security vulnerabilities than Server 2003. Then he goes on to blame us, the consumer, for the security holes stating something like, "You wanted features, so for years we focused on that. Now you want security, so that's our top concern." What a load of tripe! He had the nerve to blame IT administrators (their customers) because they wanted "features" instead of "security"!
 
apollo8fan said:
"You wanted features, so for years we focused on that. Now you want security, so that's our top concern."

sounds microsoftish - as if a software company could only take care of one of the two. rubbish. if you make a feature, you commit to taking care of it (optimizing, fixing, enhancing...) and that's what microsoft hasn't been doing. they have had insecure system to begin with and have just tried to put new features on top of the security holes. that policy cannot get them very far...

but then again, microsoft is not a software firm. it's a marketing house. it's good at marketing the product that isn't ready in years, and forcing distributors to distribute their stuff. that's where the money comes from, not from the products they sell. (well, they have one good piece of software: excel.)
 
nagromme said:
Learn it well:

1. Windows has continual and major problems.

2. But no OS is ever perfect.

3. Mac OS is not perfect

4. Therefore Windows is just as good as Mac OS.

5. Therefore Windows is better than Mac OS.

QED.

Been seeing that "logic" around a LOT lately. Watch for it :)

Got that right. Where i work, I frequently hear that from the other PC techs, as the place is an all PC shop.
 
well my OSX doesn't startup anymore after installing this update... something similar happened last year with another update on my imac.

so I ll probably need to install panther again....

grmbl
 
beer said:
well my OSX doesn't startup anymore after installing this update... something similar happened last year with another update on my imac.

so I ll probably need to install panther again....

grmbl
I can't get the update from Software Update on my PowerBook - my G5 at work got it just fine.

Also mysteriously my QuickTime plugin has started freezing whenever I try to view a trailer from the Apple site. Don't know if it's related.
 
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