Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Mac OSX Sins - Very true for me
- Thread starter livecn
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Appreciate the detailed explanation. I actually know most of the mouse-oriented file manipulation methods, but none of them gives me a penalty-free workflow. I think anything involves "drag and hover" is potentially dangerous (and pain to the finger).
Regarding your example of "closing app and then paste", it's well dealt with by Windows without losing the ability to CUT/PASTE files. So I think it shouldn't be the reason (or excuse) for Apple not to implement it in OSX.
To be honest, I find the website design more annoying than any of the annoyances listed on it.
"We have those. The behavior you likely want from them can be achieved through meta keys. But I tend to use meta keys plus arrow keys, since I'm a laptop cat. I forget which is the same as Windows home, but it's either CTRL left arrow or CMD left arrow"
CTRL or CMD left arrow do not work on every application. I agree that the lack of Home and End is extremely annoying.
CTRL or CMD left arrow do not work on every application. I agree that the lack of Home and End is extremely annoying.
having used computers for over 16 years now, I've actually never used 'cut & paste'.
ever.
the rest of the 'sins' aren't big deals if you're used to working in OS X. bigger 'sins' would be a lack of standardization across operating systems by most outside developers. key combos that work in office on a pc, are different in a mac, as are most menus etc.
that's a sin in my opinion.
as is the large number of people who still rely upon microsoft's .asp web extension, which never correctly works in safari.
ever.
the rest of the 'sins' aren't big deals if you're used to working in OS X. bigger 'sins' would be a lack of standardization across operating systems by most outside developers. key combos that work in office on a pc, are different in a mac, as are most menus etc.
that's a sin in my opinion.
as is the large number of people who still rely upon microsoft's .asp web extension, which never correctly works in safari.
There's inherent complexity and accidental complexity. You want to minimize the latter, and streamline the former. Not being able to access a window because it's obscured by other windows is inherent complexity -- you obscured the window on purpose.
Your argument is that the best means of identifying a window is based on its "spatial consistency," but that ignores that you can, for good or bad, put a window entirely over the top of another one, maintaining a "z-index." In other words, there is no "spatial consistency" in two dimensions. Sure, says Windows Aero, so just stack them isometrically. Which is nice, and works, but it doesn't cover the case of minimized windows (or hidden windows, or alternate desktops, or anything else that can't be described "spatially"). Basically, Windows ignores some of the inherent complexity, requiring that you change the state of some windows prior to making them drop targets. Which is fine. But not the way I prefer to use my desktop.
Your complaint is that OSx takes the inherently complex task of identifying a window and gave you several orthogonal techniques to manage it (none of which is complex in its own right). Want to see your non-minimized or hidden windows tiled? Use one of the Expose methods (for an application, for a space or across all spaces). Want to target an application, including minimized or hidden windows? Hover the dock icon. Want to target a specific window in the context of the application? Use cmd-tab/`.
So let me ask you -- you store photos from 2004 on a disk. When you copy them from the disk, what should the create date be -- date of creation (2004), or date of the copy operation (2010)?
Why is downloading special? You're preserving dates on a copy. That's not 80/20.
What's unbroken -- changing the meaning of the operation (cut sometimes means "place the full contents in memory and remove them" and sometimes means "grey the file and then when I say paste, copy it and delete it) or considering two completely different operations as .. gasp .. two completely different operations?
CMD-Z. God.
Except that the "new" functionality here has been in place for ten years or longer. The "smart ones" are making expectations based on their experiences with a foreign system they abandoned specifically because it wasn't "smart."
TL;DR: please stop acting like you're a systems engineer when you're barely competent to use the system in the first place.
Plus then you can organize them into events, and you get a date of addition!
(Troll of the Year, BTW)
Sometimes I want to use drag & drop to move files between Events in iPhoto. It can't be done. In those occasions, I move all my files out iPhoto and use Finder as a file manager.
I totally agree with you on that. Finder is simply a GUI for the file system. OSX is really more than that. I think that in future versions of Apple's OS's they will give Finder a decent overhaul. It's good, but honest it could be better.
STILL I prefer it over the Windows Explorer any freaking day. I used Windows for over a decade and when I switched to OSX a few months ago.. maybe 8 months ago, it was one of the best days of my life. ahah
Explorer, and the Windows Control Panel make me sick.
Finder has SOME insurmountable issues, but they're none of them the superficial ones presented here. For example, it's single threaded and any IO exception is likely to lock, block or otherwise decommission that thread. A single dirty CD can essentially bring your file system offline.
Windows Explorer may suck by design (honestly one program to manage both the menuing chrome and the filesystem?) but by virtue of sucking it's had multithreading for EONS.
Finder is -- gasp -- great for FINDING things. It falters a bit at manipulation, and if that's your bag you'll want one of the many competent Finder replacements.
Windows Explorer may suck by design (honestly one program to manage both the menuing chrome and the filesystem?) but by virtue of sucking it's had multithreading for EONS.
Finder is -- gasp -- great for FINDING things. It falters a bit at manipulation, and if that's your bag you'll want one of the many competent Finder replacements.
I'm not sure if I understand you there, but I believe that when you drop something in a folder after using spring-loaded folders, the newly opened folder stays open. I might be understanding you wrong though.
Regarding the other issues, some of them are true annoyances but some of them are something that you will get used to as you continue using it. When I first started using OS X a year ago after I'd used Windows my whole life, I too was annoyed with the differences in the maximize, for example. However, now I truly believe that Mac OS X's method is better. I'm not sure what is happening to you when you say "how funny it extends the window vertically to "fit" anything.". It works consistently here, but it does take some time getting used to.
Just for curiosity's sake, livecn, how long have you been using Mac OS X and which OS did you use before it?
[1] I've never had a problem with that. I don't use Replace Folder. I just delete the obsolete one. Besides, "replace" means replace, not merge.
[2] OS X doesn't do this because if you forget to paste the file you've erased it forever. Wouldn't deleting an important file be worse?
[3] What do you mean?
[4] Off-topic! This is supposed to be about the OS but now you're complaining about the browser. If you don't like Safari, use Firefox. It has that feature.
[5] I like the server timestamps. When downloading software it's useful for knowing when the version was released.
[6] You are incorrect. Cmd+Tab to the application you want, then Cmd+~ to cycle the windows of that application.
[7] This is the same as issue #6 and can be solved in the same way as I just described.
[8] In all of the three times I've had to do this (been using Macs since 2005) I just temporarily moved the existing Trash contents to a new folder on the Desktop. Not a big deal.
[9] I never used those keys even when I used Windows. They are mostly redundant.
[10] You're the only person who has ever wanted this.
[11] I agreed with you on this one, but you can easily fix it with RightZoom.
[12] You're the only person who has ever even noticed this.
I think that a lot of your frustration is a result of how much you rely on the keyboard. I'm not saying that it's wrong to be a keyboard-only person. But you are really in the minority. You can't expect Apple to change all these things, so you should either get used to it or switch to Linux where you can customize anything and everything but nothing is intuitive or user friendly.
[2] OS X doesn't do this because if you forget to paste the file you've erased it forever. Wouldn't deleting an important file be worse?
[3] What do you mean?
[4] Off-topic! This is supposed to be about the OS but now you're complaining about the browser. If you don't like Safari, use Firefox. It has that feature.
[5] I like the server timestamps. When downloading software it's useful for knowing when the version was released.
[6] You are incorrect. Cmd+Tab to the application you want, then Cmd+~ to cycle the windows of that application.
[7] This is the same as issue #6 and can be solved in the same way as I just described.
[8] In all of the three times I've had to do this (been using Macs since 2005) I just temporarily moved the existing Trash contents to a new folder on the Desktop. Not a big deal.
[9] I never used those keys even when I used Windows. They are mostly redundant.
[10] You're the only person who has ever wanted this.
[11] I agreed with you on this one, but you can easily fix it with RightZoom.
[12] You're the only person who has ever even noticed this.
I think that a lot of your frustration is a result of how much you rely on the keyboard. I'm not saying that it's wrong to be a keyboard-only person. But you are really in the minority. You can't expect Apple to change all these things, so you should either get used to it or switch to Linux where you can customize anything and everything but nothing is intuitive or user friendly.
A little background for those who are curious: I've been using Macs everyday since 2004. I have an iBook G4, Mac Mini, and MacBook Pro at my home. I started with Panther and now on Snow Leopard (and used everything i between, no OS9 though).
I used to be a Mac fan before I even owned a Mac (search for my old posts and you will know). I care about this OS therefore I want it to become better for most people.
Now back to the points.
"Blocked Window" - No it's not a complex situation. Just give me a bar with all open windows ordered by the time they are opened, and my muscle will easily find the ones I use the most. I disable the grouping feature of Windows XP and Windows 7 so that I get this bar. But on a Mac, I can't do that.
"No spatial consistency in 2D" - I think Expose can easily solve this by organizing windows in a more consistent way (not by their sizes and positions which change from time to time). I can't think of a reason why the current seemingly random organization is good, because no one remembers a window by its size... (especially when it's obscured).
"Timestamp" - I totally agree that copied files need their original timestamps, but that's because the user knows the original file (and can easily check the time, and can see the original ordered-by-time list). However, when you download from a website, who knows (or even cares) the original file's time on the server? Who knows or even cares the original sort-by-time list on the server? You can't even see it like what you do in Finder. The analog does not stand. Besides, I can't even think of a time that I care about the server time (unless it's my own server and I'm maintaining it. But talking about 80/20, I believe more than 80% Internet users are not web admins). All that matters is the time that I, as the user, perceive, and I perceive only the time the file is saved into my disk for the first time.
"Cut/Paste" - Users don't "think", especially about "consistency" or "meaning" in everyday operations; instead, we "grow a feeling about it", and build it into our memory. By saying it's breaking the "meaning" is creating a problem that doesn't exist any more (it's no longer 1980, and you don't teach people how to use GUI). Anyway, I may be the rare case here, but I think 90% of all PC users (who are Windows users!) are used to this, so forget about the "teach people about the meaning of cut" argument.
"I suck at mousing" - Stop personal attack please. No point doing that. (Have you noticed I'm not doing that? ;-)) Besides, good luck with clicking and dragging (and hovering for god's sake!) with a Magic Mouse (which is standard with every iMac), or with the touchpad on laptops (don't forget the whole pad is the button, which means you can't use one finger to press it and another to move it, or maybe I'm wrong?). Don't tell me to buy another mouse; buying a hardware to solve the basic software problem is no good for me, a normal user.
"Emperor's new clothes" - There is no "foreign" OS here, and never defend by saying that. It's only "good for users" and "not good for users", and by saying something is foreign doesn't mean it's not good for the user.
"System engineer" - I'm not one, and never intended to act as one, but I have the right to speak the terms, don't I?
"Barely competent to use the system" - No personal attack OK? After 6 years of trying, I still miss Cut/Paste and other features, and the lack of them doesn't make my life easier.
"OSX is more than Finder" - Totally agreed. That's why I stay on the platform for 6 years. But Finder is one of the most essential and most used apps on this OS, and I find some of the "Sins" are not Finder's.
"Spring-loaded folder stays" - I may remember it wrongly, but I think when I drop a file into a sub-folder without waiting for it to spring load as a window, the whole trail closes. [Update: I was indeed wrong. The last folder stays. Sorry.]
I used to be a Mac fan before I even owned a Mac (search for my old posts and you will know). I care about this OS therefore I want it to become better for most people.
Now back to the points.
"Blocked Window" - No it's not a complex situation. Just give me a bar with all open windows ordered by the time they are opened, and my muscle will easily find the ones I use the most. I disable the grouping feature of Windows XP and Windows 7 so that I get this bar. But on a Mac, I can't do that.
"No spatial consistency in 2D" - I think Expose can easily solve this by organizing windows in a more consistent way (not by their sizes and positions which change from time to time). I can't think of a reason why the current seemingly random organization is good, because no one remembers a window by its size... (especially when it's obscured).
"Timestamp" - I totally agree that copied files need their original timestamps, but that's because the user knows the original file (and can easily check the time, and can see the original ordered-by-time list). However, when you download from a website, who knows (or even cares) the original file's time on the server? Who knows or even cares the original sort-by-time list on the server? You can't even see it like what you do in Finder. The analog does not stand. Besides, I can't even think of a time that I care about the server time (unless it's my own server and I'm maintaining it. But talking about 80/20, I believe more than 80% Internet users are not web admins). All that matters is the time that I, as the user, perceive, and I perceive only the time the file is saved into my disk for the first time.
"Cut/Paste" - Users don't "think", especially about "consistency" or "meaning" in everyday operations; instead, we "grow a feeling about it", and build it into our memory. By saying it's breaking the "meaning" is creating a problem that doesn't exist any more (it's no longer 1980, and you don't teach people how to use GUI). Anyway, I may be the rare case here, but I think 90% of all PC users (who are Windows users!) are used to this, so forget about the "teach people about the meaning of cut" argument.
"I suck at mousing" - Stop personal attack please. No point doing that. (Have you noticed I'm not doing that? ;-)) Besides, good luck with clicking and dragging (and hovering for god's sake!) with a Magic Mouse (which is standard with every iMac), or with the touchpad on laptops (don't forget the whole pad is the button, which means you can't use one finger to press it and another to move it, or maybe I'm wrong?). Don't tell me to buy another mouse; buying a hardware to solve the basic software problem is no good for me, a normal user.
"Emperor's new clothes" - There is no "foreign" OS here, and never defend by saying that. It's only "good for users" and "not good for users", and by saying something is foreign doesn't mean it's not good for the user.
"System engineer" - I'm not one, and never intended to act as one, but I have the right to speak the terms, don't I?
"Barely competent to use the system" - No personal attack OK? After 6 years of trying, I still miss Cut/Paste and other features, and the lack of them doesn't make my life easier.
"OSX is more than Finder" - Totally agreed. That's why I stay on the platform for 6 years. But Finder is one of the most essential and most used apps on this OS, and I find some of the "Sins" are not Finder's.
"Spring-loaded folder stays" - I may remember it wrongly, but I think when I drop a file into a sub-folder without waiting for it to spring load as a window, the whole trail closes. [Update: I was indeed wrong. The last folder stays. Sorry.]
So disable it.
Finder > Preferences > General
Then uncheck the box.
Did you even look to see if that option was there?
Or were you just happy you found something you could gripe about?
So disable it.
Finder > Preferences > General
Then uncheck the box.
Did you even look to see if that option was there?
Or were you just happy you found something you could gripe about?
How am I supposed to move a file impromptu if I disable that? Don't forget there is no Cut/Paste...
Truth to be told, I don't like to gripe. If Apple fixes half of the Sins I would be a happier man.
Let me say it again: Replacing is OK, but replacing by deleting all old files and not giving the user a way to recover/undo it, is NOT OK!
Besides, I really do think the merging behavior of Windows is superior. Because you can easily "downgrade" to "replace" by manually deleting old folder, and pasting new folder, but you cannot "upgrade" to "merge" with the "replace" (sorry about my "download"/"upgrade" wording. Can't find a better words. Think them as neutral please.)
It is obvious that you have never used one of the newer trackpads. Why complain about a problem that doesn't exist?
Can anyone direct me to the Windows Vista Sins page?
How about Windows 7?
I just want to know what I'm getting into before I switch. Thinking twice, like the MacOS Sins heading suggests.
How about Windows 7?
I just want to know what I'm getting into before I switch. Thinking twice, like the MacOS Sins heading suggests.