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MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

maikerukun said:
So I'm on that message thread and posted my 2019 Mac Pro results in there and it renders the test scene in 1s flat...it is the fastest system out there when it comes to Octane for 2 GPU's or less. 3 RTX 3090's can best that by a second but that's it.

I'm only including that because you didn't post what the score was for the w6800x duo setup is...
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I must for the sake of completeness ask you if it really was the new scene with a volume in a glass contraption or the old chess scene?
1 s is insanely speedy and to be honest not expected from the raw teraflop perf on your system compared to a 4090.
 
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fuchsdh said:
But that gets to the point that there are two different groups looking to the Mac Pro, the tinkerer/enthusiasts and the professional use cases.
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I'm definitely in the tinkerer / enthusiast camp, but only because Apple doesn't make something akin to a consumer PC desktop. Apple seem to struggle justifying building one macOS tower, let alone two, so their workstation has to cover all use cases. A second hand one is an acceptable compromise to me. Just a shame releases have been so sporadic / inconsistent for the last decade.

I'm not in the market for an über workstation. If I were looking for a Windows PC, I'd spend around £1500 on a self-build with something like a 12700 / 32GB DDR4 / RTX 3070Ti, including decent case, PSU etc. I'd pay £2K for a Mac equivalent, but would want PCIe GPU options from AMD at least.
 
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mode11 said:
I'm definitely in the tinkerer / enthusiast camp, but only because Apple doesn't make something akin to a consumer PC desktop. Apple seem to struggle justifying building one macOS tower, let alone two, so their workstation has to cover all use cases. A second hand one is an acceptable compromise to me. Just a shame releases have been so sporadic / inconsistent for the last decade.

I'm not in the market for an über workstation. If I were looking for a Windows PC, I'd spend around £1500 on a self-build with something like a 12700 / 32GB DDR4 / RTX 3070Ti, including decent case, PSU etc. I'd pay £2K for a Mac equivalent, but would want PCIe GPU options from AMD at least.
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Yeah, realistically I think the best way to service that market is create something for pros and then the enthusiasts can get the secondhand ones.

That path worked during the Intel Mac Pro era (that's what I did, after school I traded out my MacBook Pro and got a used 3,1 Mac Pro, and then traded up to a 5,1. If they'd come out with a 7,1 tube model I would have probably gotten it or a discounted 6,1.) Unfortunately it hasn't since due to the infrequent updates. Without as easy a migratory path for components that's not really as viable a strategy, but it's still the best option probably since as you say Apple isn't interested in a low-end tower (and at least I understand that move, since the enthusiast market probably is tiny enough it doesn't make economic sense to go for. Apple can compete with professional workstation use cases, a growing and lucrative field, it could never effectively compete with the build-your-own market, at least not without completely rethinking how they do business.)

mattspace said:
It really is weirdly consistent throughout the Apple media landscape that the disappearance of the 27" iMac, and the introduction of the Mac Studio and a 27" display seem to be incapable of occupying the same article.
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Yeah it's a really weird tack to take. "Apple is late on the transition, is it because the Mac Pro is too tough for them?" is a worthwhile question to ask, but the article misses the fact that Apple didn't fully migrate the Mac mini line in the allotted time frame, either (the other Intel Mac remaining in their lineup until now) and that switching from off-the-shelf IBM parts to off-the-shelf Intel parts was a much simpler task, even before the pandemic and supply chain woes. Clearly Apple didn't think it would take them 3+ years to transition, but it doesn't really point one way or another to the Mac Pro as the reason. The replacement of the large iMac with the display + Mini or studio combo also points to Apple rethinking its lineup meaningfully in the new era rather than just trucking along doing the same thing.

But it's certainly an interesting question, especially with the whispers and hints of a Mac Pro refresh (which they really, really should have done, to demonstrate commitment to the platform, buy themselves some time, or at least that they're capable of iterating on a one-shot design still at the bare minimum 😛). But they didn't really get around to designing the Mac Pro until they absolutely knew internally they were switching to Apple Silicon. Maybe the teams didn't know AS's capabilities or didn't care and just wanted to go for broke on an Intel workstation idea, but it seems so strange to me they'd pivot the Mac Pro to another class of workstation without the ability to replace it when they switched to their own chips (and I think it's entirely fair to say they could, it's just a function of how much they want to create a product that doesn't align with the rest of the priorities of their lineup and isn't as "easy" to do.)
 
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fuchsdh said:
Without as easy a migratory path for components that's not really as viable a strategy,
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Yeah, it's one thing when Apple are using off-the-shelf Intel / AMD parts. You can tap eBay for upgrades, benefiting from the PC ecosystem. If the whole thing is proprietary Apple, any upgrades would be very expensive, even if everything wasn't soldered down in the first place. Even back in the PPC days, CPU upgrade cards cost a fortune compared to just buying a second hand Pentium and sticking it in the socket. Same with the Mac 'versions' of graphics cards (2x the cost for different firmware).

fuchsdh said:
but it's still the best option probably since as you say Apple isn't interested in a low-end tower (and at least I understand that move, since the enthusiast market probably is tiny enough it doesn't make economic sense to go for. Apple can compete with professional workstation use cases, a growing and lucrative field, it could never effectively compete with the build-your-own market, at least not without completely rethinking how they do business.)
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I wouldn't expect Apple to compete with the build-your-own market, that wouldn't be reasonable. But during the Intel days, they could have essentially made a posh m-ATX desktop with an i7 and non-ECC RAM. The problem is it would have cannibalised sales from the Mac Pro and high-end iMacs. It would also be a completely different SKU in what is a small market for them (though how inherently small is hard to say, given Apple refused to sell such machines).

Fundamentally, the bullseye of Apple's Mac market is the laptop. They'll also remove the screen and sell you a mini, or stick it on the back of a big screen and sell you an iMac. Any tower is just so far removed from that; it was true in the Intel days, and quadruply true with Apple Silicon. It's easy to see how reluctant Apple are to make a tower - turning the Mac Pro into a tube-shaped SFF in 2013, then into a Xeon iMac in 2017, before giving up and going back to a tower, but doubling its cost. During the same time period, Dell and HP just pumped out Xeon boxes, refreshing them with each CPU generation.

It was kind of ever thus. Even in the PPC days, the G3s and G4s were power efficient chips that shone in laptops, but were unconvincingly competitive with Intel CPUs in desktops, generally needing to be doubled up to compete. The G5 was briefly promising, but was essentially the last roll of the dice for PPC and quickly discontinued.

fuchsdh said:
Maybe the teams didn't know AS's capabilities or didn't care and just wanted to go for broke on an Intel workstation idea, but it seems so strange to me they'd pivot the Mac Pro to another class of workstation without the ability to replace it when they switched to their own chips
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I guess if it's your job at Apple to build a kick ass workstation, and you have Intel's Xeon parts bin at your disposal, you can create quite a monster. Perhaps they felt they needed a convincing repost to pros leaving macOS for Windows. "Can't make an expandable desktop my ass". Maybe they underestimated the technical challenges with making an Extreme. Given their achievements with the A-series and M-series to date, you could forgive a bit of hubris.
 
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mode11 said:
It was kind of ever thus. Even in the PPC days, the G3s and G4s were power efficient chips that shone in laptops, but were unconvincingly competitive with Intel CPUs in desktops, generally needing to be doubled up to compete. The G5 was briefly promising, but was essentially the last roll of the dice for PPC and quickly discontinued.
Click to expand...
Eh, the same cycle was at play for basically every chip. The PowerPC, G3, G4—they were all faster than the competition at launch, and the "megahertz myth" was exactly that. But they quickly were surpassed by the competition each time (or in the case of the G4 required extreme software tuning to really make use of that power), and with the G4s and G5s performance-per-watt became an increasingly big issue. The G4s ran hotter than the G3s, and they had to start sticking fans in computers that didn't have fans before, while the G5 they gutted the internal expandability of the PowerMac to make the chip work. In some ways, the Apple Silicon transition is a repetition of past cycles—yep, switching from the hot slow architecture to something much better results in huge gains, then the improvements naturally slow—although I don't think Apple is particularly trying to fight the same game they were, because there's a ton of people out there who buy Apple laptops not because of their raw power but because they feel nice and light and they get battery life basically no other laptop can without compromises.

I guess if it's your job at Apple to build a kick ass workstation, and you have Intel's Xeon parts bin at your disposal, you can create quite a monster. Perhaps they felt they needed a convincing repost to pros leaving macOS for Windows. "Can't make an expandable desktop my ass". Maybe they underestimated the technical challenges with making an Extreme. Given their achievements with the A-series and M-series to date, you could forgive a bit of hubris.
Click to expand...

To this day the choice to "stick it to the haters" with the tube Mac Pro seems mystifying. At least from the outside, Apple was never facing any sort of sales or creative crisis even with the loss of Jobs, and caring what the press thinks was and is a dumb strategy for Apple. In some ways it's more inexplicable than the Cube, which was similarly a forward-thinking look at what computing was skating to as well as a design challenge, but also had a different niche it was targeting (and might have worked out fine, had the price actually fit that niche.)
 
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fuchsdh said:
because there's a ton of people out there who buy Apple laptops not because of their raw power but because they feel nice and light and they get battery life basically no other laptop can without compromises.
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That was arguably true of G3/G4 laptops too.

fuchsdh said:
at least from the outside, Apple was never facing any sort of sales or creative crisis even with the loss of Jobs, and caring what the press thinks was and is a dumb strategy for Apple.
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I dunno, Jobs was inextricably linked to Apple's success. He had been forced out of the company, Apple slumped, then he made a triumphant return, and had a run that included the iMac, OS X, iPod, x86 transition, iPhone and iPad. Going from almost bankrupt in the late 1990s to one of the world's most successful companies a decade or so later. Unusally for a CEO, he was also a charismatic public figure and salesman. It's like having your lead singer fall under a bus, and continuing the band without him. Sure, people wished them well, but all eyes were on them to see if Apple could continue their winning streak*. I think a bit of self-doubt was understandable at the time. Plus of course, Steve was personally held in high regard by the other members of the senior team - I remember watching Tim Cook's measured but clearly heartfelt speech at their Apple HQ event when they said goodbye to him.

Also, despite the spin, the tube was not simply the product of skating to where they thought the puck would be. It was fundamentally about downsizing the Mac Pro, turning it into a much cheaper product to make, transport and store. Yes, there is something delightful about a potent SFF computer, but I believe it was primarily about trying to make the Mac Pro more viable for them as a product.

*The fact Steve had a habit of personally taking credit for all the innovation probably didn't help either.
 
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mode11 said:
That was arguably true of G3/G4 laptops too.


I dunno, Jobs was inextricably linked to Apple's success. He had been forced out of the company, Apple slumped, then he made a triumphant return, and had a run that included the iMac, OS X, iPod, x86 transition, iPhone and iPad. Going from almost bankrupt in the late 1990s to one of the world's most successful companies a decade or so later. Unusally for a CEO, he was also a charismatic public figure and salesman. It's like having your lead singer fall under a bus, and continuing the band without him. Sure, people wished them well, but all eyes were on them to see if Apple could continue their winning streak. I think a bit of self-doubt was understandable at the time. Plus of course, Steve was personally held in high regard by the other members of the senior team - I remember watching Tim Cook's measured but clearly heartfelt speech at their Apple HQ event when they said goodbye to him.
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No doubt he was important, but it just seems like a swerve when you've already got a problem in one category to blow things up and start over if there's a crisis about direction or leadership. I'd love to know the timeframe of the 6,1's development and how much was considered or conceptualized during Jobs' time—by 2011 the "is Apple going to kill the Mac Pro" articles were already starting to proliferate and that was the year the pro dissatisfaction began in earnest, (if you don't want to mark it starting at 2008 with killing off Shake.) Obviously hindsight is 20-20, but I doubt you could get an Apple exec who'd been at the company since then to look at the FCPX launch, "new" 2012 Mac Pro, tube model, etc. and say 'yep, that's what we should have done'.
 
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innerproduct said:
I must for the sake of completeness ask you if it really was the new scene with a volume in a glass contraption or the old chess scene?
1 s is insanely speedy and to be honest not expected from the raw teraflop perf on your system compared to a 4090.
Click to expand...
Ahhhhh sorry I didn't click the link through, didn't see a new scene to test, my bad. Yes I was then referring to the old test scenes "there were 3 of them, chess, corridor, and screws". When I get back from Germany I'll run the new test.
 
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Replying to fuchsdh:

I imagine at that time the iPhone was likely taking most of Steve's interest. The MP hadn't fundamentally changed since 2009; just a firmware update and a spec bump. The fact that the next iteration was a radical reduction of it shows where they were heading. And the follow up was the iMac Pro, another machine that tried to minimise the costs associated with providing the MP line.
 
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Just made an observation on my own behavior lately. I come to the conclusion that I waste a lot of time on worry and there is not much to gain from continuing speculation here. It just takes to much energy from my life that could be spent on better endeavors 😂
I have decided to drop out of the forums for a while and just hope for the best. Taking a helicopter view on the subject it is so easy: either Apple releases a system later this year that has the capabilities I am looking for or they don’t. Maybe I’ll buy one after seeing some real world benches in apps where I need the performance.
Until then, I wish you all happy times 🙏
 
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Yeah, same. It's a time sink alright. I'm not particularly worried though. Realistically, worse case I buy either a Studio or a PC.

I do quite enjoy the detective work. It's an intriguing puzzle and it would be fun to correctly predict what Apple will do. In all likelihood though, it's probably something all-new that we have no way of guessing anyway.

See you back here when the new Mac Pro is announced!
 
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Just remember that THIS THREAD is supposed to be all about the ....What if?!

So I would take this thread with a grain of salt, whereas the Amethyst thread is more likely to have actual leaks/info

(although that one too turned into a bit of a what if, with too many clowns speculating and giving their fantasy ideas without any real source -- I pointed this fact out in that thread, but it still continued for some time 🤣. I suppose some people just can't control themselves)

You will be missed, @innerproduct

Hopefully we get some news on the 8,1 soon!


......Now..... What if the Mac Pro had..... 🤣
 
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ZombiePhysicist said:

This fellow in the above thread seems to Think we will be getting 8 slots. If so, I don’t see how we will not be getting gpu support.

Also, we will be getting 2 Ultra processors. Just not on one SoC, but old school duo, per this:

Click to expand...
I remember Mago from the 6,1 threads. I don't think he's gotten any better at predictions than he was back then.
 
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My wish for a new compact Mac Pro concept:
Steve Jobs in known for his passion for compact devices, i'm hoping for this spirit to dismiss the current big Mac Pro form factor:
- Next gen Mac Pro in a slightly taller Mac Studio case with M2 Ultra as base model with more powerful PSU.

This "Studio" cooling system is still huge for Apple Silicon, and could be useful for:
- Base Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) without GPU-core expansion.
- Upgrade for Mac Pro could be internal or external (Thunderbolt) AppleSilicon GPU core expansion.
e.g. Add 38 M2 GPU cores as expansion module (2x possible like SLI for total 152c GPU) inside case over some kind of slot / or soldered (hello Apple). 😉
- Or upgrade optional with an external thunderbolt dock which looks similar to a Mac Mini for extra GPU power (with silent fan and acts as a base for Mac Pro "Studio style" case).
This could crush all Nvidia systems and be a real Mac Pro successor and open the door for AAA-gaming (VR). 🚀
I don't expect Apple VR be based on Nvidia/AMD graphics, this will be AS "magic" powered (my opinion).

Price: (RAM starts at 64GB)
- Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) base: 6000 $
- Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) + internal 19c AS GPU expansion: 7000 $
- Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) + internal 38c AS GPU expansion: 8000 $
- External 76c AS GPU Thunderbolt expansion dock: 2000 $
- RAM +SSD storage upgrades skyrockets the price and could be attractive for Apple as a company.
(Why: CPU & GPU expansion 100% in house, 100% Apple core components, 100% money stays at Apple (Game over for Nvidia, AMD and Intel inside a Mac Pro), perfectly scalable for future VR applications, start making huge money with entry into VR AAA gaming)

Mac Pro extra features (step up from Studio):
- Mac Pro case with detachable fan grill (bottom/ back) for easy fan/expansion removal and dust cleaning (like all Mac Pro since 2006).
- Dual NAND storage for all models for double SSD speed
- Dual Ethernet and / or Dual HDMI 2.1
- Make Apple Silicon Mx Ultra socketable for Mac Pro, like Intel sockets for Upgrading M2 CPU/GPU to M3, M4,... -> like Intel Core i sockets. (would make Intel/AMD take this user advantage -> Pros/Gamers love this feature).
- Sell M3, M4 Ultra AS as Upgrade Modules for Mac Pro.
- Full support for external Apple Thunderbolt-PCIe-dock (Thunderbolt next gen 5) for a relative high price to keep Intel/AMD/Nvidia upgrades at distance, but possible.

Shut up and take my money!
 
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pappl said:
My wish for a new compact Mac Pro concept:
Steve Jobs in known for his passion for compact devices, i'm hoping for this spirit to dismiss the current big Mac Pro form factor:
Click to expand...

Jobs was in charge of the Lisa (not a compact device), not the Mac. The NeXT Cube was a slotbox in a decorative shape, the G4 Cube failed in the market, which he saw happen. Jobs' personal machine in his office at Apple was a tower Mac Pro. The 2013 is a post-Jobs product. iPhones under Jobs were compact to accomodate the sweep of a human thumb while holding it.

Beware of conflating Jony Ive's decorative minimalism and thinness with Jobs, whose focus was always on the utilitarian (made to look nice).
 
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pappl said:
My wish for a new compact Mac Pro concept:
Steve Jobs in known for his passion for compact devices, i'm hoping for this spirit to dismiss the current big Mac Pro form factor:
- Next gen Mac Pro in a slightly taller Mac Studio case with M2 Ultra as base model with more powerful PSU.

This "Studio" cooling system is still huge for Apple Silicon, and could be useful for:
- Base Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) without GPU-core expansion.
- Upgrade for Mac Pro could be internal or external (Thunderbolt) AppleSilicon GPU core expansion.
e.g. Add 38 M2 GPU cores as expansion module (2x possible like SLI for total 152c GPU) inside case over some kind of slot / or soldered (hello Apple). 😉
- Or upgrade optional with an external thunderbolt dock which looks similar to a Mac Mini for extra GPU power (with silent fan and acts as a base for Mac Pro "Studio style" case).
This could crush all Nvidia systems and be a real Mac Pro successor and open the door for AAA-gaming (VR). 🚀
I don't expect Apple VR be based on Nvidia/AMD graphics, this will be AS "magic" powered (my opinion).

Price: (RAM starts at 64GB)
- Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) base: 6000 $
- Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) + internal 19c AS GPU expansion: 7000 $
- Mac Pro M2 Ultra (76c GPU) + internal 38c AS GPU expansion: 8000 $
- External 76c AS GPU Thunderbolt expansion dock: 2000 $
- RAM +SSD storage upgrades skyrockets the price and could be attractive for Apple as a company.
(Why: CPU & GPU expansion 100% in house, 100% Apple core components, 100% money stays at Apple (Game over for Nvidia, AMD and Intel inside a Mac Pro), perfectly scalable for future VR applications, start making huge money with entry into VR AAA gaming)

Mac Pro extra features (step up from Studio):
- Mac Pro case with detachable fan grill (bottom/ back) for easy fan/expansion removal and dust cleaning (like all Mac Pro since 2006).
- Dual NAND storage for all models for double SSD speed
- Dual Ethernet and / or Dual HDMI 2.1
- Make Apple Silicon Mx Ultra socketable for Mac Pro, like Intel sockets for Upgrading M2 CPU/GPU to M3, M4,... -> like Intel Core i sockets. (would make Intel/AMD take this user advantage -> Pros/Gamers love this feature).
- Sell M3, M4 Ultra AS as Upgrade Modules for Mac Pro.
- Full support for external Apple Thunderbolt-PCIe-dock (Thunderbolt next gen 5) for a relative high price to keep Intel/AMD/Nvidia upgrades at distance, but possible.

Shut up and take my money!
Click to expand...
LOL Well if nothing else you definitely shared your wish 🙂

We will miss you @innerproduct 🙂
 
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Literally posting because I miss you guys lol. Just finished my shoot for the day out here in Palm Springs. Hope everyone's having a great weekend. "Typing this on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro" 😛
 
maikerukun said:
Literally posting because I miss you guys lol. Just finished my shoot for the day out here in Palm Springs. Hope everyone's having a great weekend. "Typing this on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro" 😛
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Happy Weekend to everybody!

pappl said:
My wish for a new compact Mac Pro concept:
Steve Jobs in known for his passion for compact devices, i'm hoping for this spirit to dismiss the current big Mac Pro form factor:
Click to expand...
Yes, but, for thee, not for me.

Posthumously Getty Images published some pics of Steve Jobs incredibly messy home office 😉 He's using a Mac Pro cheesegrater.

https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/111017060031_b.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/12...=d0xI6TgCRGpM0EzxMtZ6qFPAeYwtlPorheg59ONGC3U=

https://cdn0.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/11/lightbox-iframe.jpeg
 
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Schismz said:
Happy Weekend to everybody!


Yes, but, for thee, not for me.

Posthumously Getty Images published some pics of Steve Jobs incredibly messy home office 😉 He's using a Mac Pro cheesegrater.

https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/111017060031_b.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/12...=d0xI6TgCRGpM0EzxMtZ6qFPAeYwtlPorheg59ONGC3U=

https://cdn0.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/11/lightbox-iframe.jpeg
Click to expand...
111017060031_b.jpg


There is so much insight to be had with that photo. The expandable Mac. That 30" display would work with other Macs at the time. The snaggle of external devices. Even look at the back of the display, looks like some USB dongle in there. And the absolute mess of a personal working space (which I am all for...shows he wants lots of random access to his stuff).

Yea, truly cool find. Thanks for sharing it.
 
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