Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
So, I have freelanced in about 50 studios since 2010. This is what happened.

Mac Pro 2008-2012
Small Studios would Get one and upgrade it with various bits RAM/Raid - and Upgrade the GPUs every few years.
Large Studios would but the top of the Range - even the RAM but never actually change anything. They might put in another HD if requested.

MP 2013
Studios bought the Mid / High end Dual GPU and mid CPU, They had decent Network shared storage or Thunderbolt.

Ultimately they were very annoyed that the GPU was NOT upgradable. If Apple had upgraded GPU alone, that would have been enough for most people.

MP 2019
Studios ARE upgrading these with NVME raid cards and Upgrading the GPUs. A few have pro audio PCIE cards. And of course the RAM - I have seen a steady upgrade over time - There are so many slots.


My own 2019 is now has 16tb NVME - W6800X Duo ( up from the Vega Pro duo ) and 192 GB RAM From the stock 32gb and the Afterburner card. I even got the Rack for normal SSDs!

Whatever they do next - it better be upgradable and have similar RAM/storage/PCIE capability.

And this is the worry, because so far every single Apple silicon machine including the expensive Studio is not upgradable in the slightest.
I‘m beginning to wonder if it’s even possible on Apple Silicon. Surely the studio would have had upgradable RAM if nothing else? Is that why they scrapped the M1 Mac Pro, because nothings upgradable and it wasn’t powerful enough to justify its no doubt very high price band? Will be interesting to see what they launch next year.

Still the current Mac Pro is a last of it’s generation, Intel powered and easily upgradable, and it can actually Bootcamp into Windows still. You can buy the base spec one and upgrade it as you go. I look forward to when they are the same price as the trash can Mac Pro on eBay.
 
Last edited:
I‘m beginning to wonder if it’s even possible on Apple Silicon. Surely the studio would have had upgradable RAM if nothing else? Is that why they scrapped the M1 Mac Pro, because nothings upgradable and it wasn’t powerful enough to justify its no doubt very high price band?
To reframe your question; why would you expect the Studio to have upgradeable RAM? It's clearly a self-contained piece of hardware that is intended for users who don't need internal expansion. It was designed for maximum performance with the existing 'on package' philosophy.

More appropriate still, we need to ask why DIMM slot RAM continues to exist in the first place. The reason isn't because PC manufacturers have the users' best interests at heart, it's because it's easier and cheaper for OEMs to install a stick of memory into a motherboard at a variety of configurations than it is to change and solder the dies themselves to a variety of different motherboard configurations.

Whether users want it or not, DIMM slot RAM is not Apple's priority unless they reach the point at which the supported memory capacities exceed current die configurations. I'm sure Apple will want to pursue this given the 1.5TB capacity of the current Mac Pro, but my guess is that the next model will only have DIMM if the included Apple Silicon itself supports these huge capacities.
 
thunderbolt solves most of that. minor performance hit with eGPUs but works fine. and you can add more than a few. would be even easier if apple made a thunderbolt addon case. easy swap in/out and connect via TB.
The shared PCI backplane is not solved with Thunderbolt. The lack of Afterburner is not solved with TB. The custom GPUs are designed with TB 3 ports on them specifically for Apple. They are Pro level cards. One hopes they order custom ASICs for RDNA 3.0 cards and imagine if they bothered with the MI 200-300 line of CDNA cards. Then add-in third party custom options and sorry but TB doesn't have a thing to do with most of this. Apple will have a dead product if it doesn't have the same slots for third party daughter cards on those secure PCIe 4.x or possibly 5.x slots.
 
And this is the worry, because so far every single Apple silicon machine including the expensive Studio is not upgradable in the slightest.
I‘m beginning to wonder if it’s even possible on Apple Silicon. Surely the studio would have had upgradable RAM if nothing else? Is that why they scrapped the M1 Mac Pro, because nothings upgradable and it wasn’t powerful enough to justify its no doubt very high price band? Will be interesting to see what they launch next year.

Still the current Mac Pro is a last if it’s generation, Intel powered and easily upgradable, and it can actually Bootcamp into Windows still. You can buy the base spec one and upgrade it as you go. I look forward to when they are the same price as the trash can Mac Pro on eBay.
I’m beginning to wonder if the M series is a deadend. Before I have downvotes hear me out. It’s great for laptops and other mobile devices. But as you say, lack of expandability is concerning.
The Studio feels like a G4 Cube, looks great but it feels odd. From an environmental perspective these sealed units feel wrong.
 
If you removed your apple goggles for a moment you’d appreciate that it was six years behind its time. The 2019 Pro is the machine they should have released in 2013 rather than their idiotic trash can. By 2019 many pros would have sadly moved on to windows as they were fed up with a non serious Pro machine.
I can’t help but think that was part of the purpose. The more serious Pro’s move on to Windows, the less they have to be concerned about creating a serious Pro machine and turn their focus to creating a Final Cut/Logic machine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cookedart
I’m beginning to wonder if the M series is a deadend. Before I have downvotes hear me out. It’s great for laptops and other mobile devices. But as you say, lack of expandability is concerning.
The Studio feels like a G4 Cube, looks great but it feels odd. From an environmental perspective these sealed units feel wrong.
It’s absolutely a dead end for a very specific type of customer that wants a computer to tinker around in that runs macOS. Fortunately for Apple, the laptop market is huge and getting bigger every year. And, from an environmental perspective, anyone that doesn’t want to recycle won’t recycle, Apple can’t prevent that. They CAN make recycling easy for those that want to (just give it back to them).

And, anyone that doesn’t want to recycle would eventually throw the whole computer in the landfill along with all the parts that were left over when they upgraded… net more trash in the landfill in the end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Garsun
Given the storyline when it came out, and all the apologies about the trashcan being painted into a corner, I would be absolutely livid if I owned one of these and the upcoming Apple Silicon Mac Pro launch does not include a new Apple Silicon motherboard to go into existing cases.
 
To reframe your question; why would you expect the Studio to have upgradeable RAM? It's clearly a self-contained piece of hardware that is intended for users who don't need internal expansion. It was designed for maximum performance with the existing 'on package' philosophy.

More appropriate still, we need to ask why DIMM slot RAM continues to exist in the first place. The reason isn't because PC manufacturers have the users' best interests at heart, it's because it's easier and cheaper for OEMs to install a stick of memory into a motherboard at a variety of configurations than it is to change and solder the dies themselves to a variety of different motherboard configurations.

Whether users want it or not, DIMM slot RAM is not Apple's priority unless they reach the point at which the supported memory capacities exceed current die configurations. I'm sure Apple will want to pursue this given the 1.5TB capacity of the current Mac Pro, but my guess is that the next model will only have DIMM if the included Apple Silicon itself supports these huge capacities.

Thats not a very good question, because you could aim your question at the Intel Mac Mini, all the Intel MacBooks that Apple sold. It’s got nothing to do with the device packaging and everything to do with the platform Apple has made. Most people would expect a 4 grand computer to have upgradable RAM , and the Studio could easily accommodate this, it’s just the platform doesn’t support it.
In fact your comment comes across as a defence of Apples choice of forcing you to upgrade memory etc through them only, at massively inflated prices. Would you be so keen to defend a Mac Pro starting from 6 grand with zero user upgrade options? Only able to upgrade memory and storage and CPU at point of purchase as massive pricing?
None user upgrade options make sense on an iMac, a Mac Mini, not on supposedly Pro level machines costing many thousands like the Mac Pro.
 
Thunderbolt had a minor hit in 2017-2018 generation graphics cards and SSDs. Today the Thunderbolt bandwidth takes a very big hit with new graphics and SSDs and there is no announcement of a next gen Thunderbolt with X2 more or X4 more bandwidth yet.
Actuallyyyy https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...ry-next-generation-thunderbolt.html#gs.kue038

But thunderbolt is seemingly always going to be the equivalent of an x4-slot. It's not going to be enough for everyone. Not to mention the big annoyance I heard from some owners of the trashcan. The clutter of external devices that they'd actually rather have inside the machine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: enterthemerdaverse
I’m beginning to wonder if the M series is a deadend. Before I have downvotes hear me out. It’s great for laptops and other mobile devices. But as you say, lack of expandability is concerning.
The Studio feels like a G4 Cube, looks great but it feels odd. From an environmental perspective these sealed units feel wrong.

I’d have zero problem with an M chip and no user upgradability in an iMac, love that design, or Mac Mini, or to an extent the lower end MacBooks. But when the machines start going up in price, especially the 4 grand Mac Studio, it’s does make you think.. the MacBook Pro only costs up to 6 grand purely due to Apples
pricing on its storage and memory upgrades, which you cannot do yourself. Nice machines yes.
So I guess possibly the writing is on the wall with the new Mac Pro in no user upgradable parts?
 
Last edited:
wonder how many that asked for a modular setup actually took advantage of it being modular?

feels like most people who bought a Mac Pro didn't really replace much inside. i think the trash can design made more sense and now that we have M chips, it makes even more sense.
I currently use 7 out of the 8 slots, along with the SATA sled across from the CPU. Modularity was the reason I bought one, coming from the 5,1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: J.J. Sefton
How does Apple move forward with another MacPro using the design of Apple Silicon? I would think buyers of MacPro would want upgradeable RAM and GPU.
That's the $64,400 (if you want wheels) question...

What the Apple Silicon we've seen so far is good for is taking the 2013 Mac Pro concept and doing it better - in the form of the new Mac Studio. You have to swallow non-upgradeable RAM, GPU and SSD but Apple Silicon takes advantage of having them all on, or closely coupled to, the SoC and turns that into a performance advantage. Apple might relent and allow SSD upgrades on the Studio - but the "Trashcan" model seems to be that you have the minimum of super-fast (super-expensive) internal storage for system and temporary files and use external for everything else.

The "gambles" with the Mac Studio are (a) that enough software will get optimised for Apple Silicon (particularly the GPU on the Mx Ultra) to do it justice - otherwise AMD/NVIDIA will wipe the floor with it and (b) CPU design, memory tech, SSD tech etc. will keep pace with each other so when it's time to upgrade, it makes sense to get a whole new system. That's what I found when I used to use self-assembly PCs: by the time the GPU was outdated, the CPU, RAM, ISA/PCI/ATA etc. (and hence, usually, the whole motherboard) were all outdated too, the only thing worth keeping was the case and it made more sense to re-purpose the old computer and start again. However, that's where the 2013 trashcan failed dismally - there never was an update. Plus, over that period, CPUs stagnated a bit (*cough* thanks, Intel) while GPUs conrtinued to develop.

There's no technical reason why Apple can't design a Xeon/Threadripper-killer "Apple Silicon" CPU with extreme PCIe and RAM capacity - but it would be a departure from existing Apple Silicon and throw away the advantages of unified RAM etc. and it would be hugely expensive to develop a whole new CPU just for the relatively few Mac Pros they sell.

Plus, ASi's big advantage is in mobiles and small-form-factor where power consumption and thermals are key... not really a big deal in a large-format personal workstation stuffed with space-heater discrete GPUs (it gets more important again in servers/cloud/high-density computing, but the Mac Pro is not for that). Meanwhile, an Apple Silicon version of a 2019-style Mac Pro is going to be up against every Xeon/Threadripper system out there, and the performance will be constrained by the same AMD graphics as everybody else.

If you needed all the cpu/gpu power you can get alright, you bought one or twenty. If you were just planning to get one so you just don't have to worry about getting a new machine for 10 years...
Trouble is, the 2019 Mac Pro is so expensive (at least $12k for a system that makes any sense - the base model was slower than a top-end iMac) that if Apple produced a $2000-$4000 non-upgradeable headless Mac you could replace it every 2-3 years over a 10 year period for less than it would cost to buy a MP and keep it up to date.

Of course, now, Apple has released a range of $2000-$4000 non-upgradeable headless Macs.

...even thinking about the environment, which is less likely to go to landfill - an old-model GPU or outdated & worn SSD removed from a Mac Pro or a complete working 3-year-old Studio? If Apple want to be green they could/should stick to the Studio form factor and sell mainboard upgrades (flap, oink... although once upon a time they did) but, frankly, there's no more e-waste in a whole Studio than there is in one of those honking great PCIe GPU cards (the aluminium case will most likely get recycled).

You really have to have a case for all those PCIe slots and insane RAM upgradeability for a Mac Pro to make financial sense.
 
Maybe Apple is giving up on both because the demand is just not there for this type of machine. I can only imagine it being a low volume seller at its current price.
Why bother with the redesign, then? It’s a stopgap before the apple silicon mac pro. Too much of a hassle if they were planning on dropping the line.
 
So, I have freelanced in about 50 studios since 2010. This is what happened.

Mac Pro 2008-2012
Small Studios would Get one and upgrade it with various bits RAM/Raid - and Upgrade the GPUs every few years.
Large Studios would but the top of the Range - even the RAM but never actually change anything. They might put in another HD if requested.

MP 2013
Studios bought the Mid / High end Dual GPU and mid CPU, They had decent Network shared storage or Thunderbolt.

Ultimately they were very annoyed that the GPU was NOT upgradable. If Apple had upgraded GPU alone, that would have been enough for most people.

MP 2019
Studios ARE upgrading these with NVME raid cards and Upgrading the GPUs. A few have pro audio PCIE cards. And of course the RAM - I have seen a steady upgrade over time - There are so many slots.

Pretty good chance Apple goes back to that 2008-2012 group and

a. tosses the small budget limited studios out of the mix.

b. raises the floor of the RAM and GPU options high enough so mainly have larger up front budget folks with reduced needs for upgrades. Storage and I/O is enabled ( but display GPUs are fixed ).

Where the MP 2013 has more problems was in internal storage than GPU. GPUs get complained about more , but . The GPUs not getting updated in the MP 2013 was partially because there was pragmatically nothing to upgrade to. Nvidia had put themselves on the "don't use list" ( various things that got them on the "really bad partner" list with Apple) and AMD was stuck and trying not to go bankrupt. AMD mainly concentrated on mid-range (Polaris). That would have gotten incrementally better thermals (which Apple's design had self inflicted problems that amplfied that limitation. But AMD "Fury" solution didn't work all that well: relatively trailing edge fab implementation, more expensive, early generational HBM , etc. )

By the time AMD was back to making mid-upper range GPU progress, the iMac Pro was in development. Apple prioritized that first over any MP adjustment.


My own 2019 is now has 16tb NVME - W6800X Duo ( up from the Vega Pro duo ) and 192 GB RAM From the stock 32gb and the Afterburner card. I even got the Rack for normal SSDs!

Apple is supplying "Afterburner" for no extra charge across the whole line up in M2 generation. Not going to be a "Mac Pro" feature going forward. With the SoCs Apple has put a 'floor' on just how low the memory can be:

Mn Max : ≥ 32GB ( probably won't be offered in a Mac Pro)
Mn Ultra : ≥ 64GB ( probably minimal Mac Pro )
Mn 'Extreme/Doubled again' : ≥ 128GB ( upper end Mac Pro)

So if pragmatically make folks go straight to 192GB in the first place then the actual hard requirements to upgrade are actually low ( e.g., the 2008-2012 case where not much movement there for folks who paid up front).

From the 2008-2012 era Apple has more than doubled the Mac Pro entry price. The MP 2019 left a substantial number of those 2008-2009 very limited budget players off on the sidelines. Apple is already charging approximately $2K for an M1 Ultra in a Studio. It is not going to get any cheaper when move to M2 (and up) and placed in a Mac Pro. Apple has already set the stage for this mulitple die package solutions as being substantially expensive. They are not going to be chasing low budget buyers with these.

The MP 2019 filtered off folks at the old user base bottom end ( entry from $2,300-3,000 --> 6,000 ). Pretty good chance this M-series Mac Pro does some pruning on the other end. ( that Apple walks back from the 53,000 end. Peeling off $10K or maybe even $25K. ). The 1.5GB RAM upgrade drove $25K of that ~53K max BTO configuration. Cap out the memory at 384GB or so and the max price won't be as high. The 24-28 core Intel Xeon options had a a thousand dollar ">1TB " taxes slapped on them by Intel and Apple also. Remove that tax ( which competition with AMD now successful Epyc has done. ) and backsliding on max BTO CPU package price also.

Pretty good chance Apple is going to try to push more 'value' back into the $6-11K price points for the next Mac Pro. Pretty much going to have to because there is much higher competition between Intel and AMD in this space now than there was 10 years ago.


Whatever they do next - it better be upgradable and have similar RAM/storage/PCIE capability.

PCIe/Storage. Probably. there was a rumor of a "one slot wonder" that got replaced with a 6 slot wonder.
Not just storage, they'll be a need for I/O cards for audio/video ingest/output , networking (> 10GbE ) , etc.
All Apple would 'need' is a modified Ultra/Extreme that could provision two x16 PCi-e v4 complexes to feed into a simiplar PLEX switch in the MP 2019 that feeds 6 of the 8 slots.

There are currently already over 50 PCI-e cards that work with macOS on M-series (via Thunderbolt expansion boxes). Not to provision something that is a working ecosystem would be more than kind of crazy. Even if had to resort to hackery of taking "extra" Thunderbolt controller internally to discrete TB peripheral controller and provisioning PCI-e v3 slots out of that. Apple has already done the work here on the software side to enable many PCI-e cards. No rational reason what so ever for the Mac Pro to then punt on taking advantage of that with zero internal PCI-e slot.

If they max out at 328GB then they'll loose some users, but probably not the majority.


They should add back GPGPU compute to minimize some of the losses there. Effectively 2.5 years and no 3rd party display GPU drivers is likely deliberate. Native iPhone apps and a desire for app developments to spend vast majority of GPU optimization budgets on Apple GPUs likely means 3rd party display GPUs probably aren't going to get supported. Nor is a discrete Apple GPU likely because most of those optimization they want folks to closer cater too are precisely to leverage the unique abilities of the iGPU Apple GPUs.

Mac don't boot via standard UEFI. Off the shelf PC market GPU cards a basically a dead end for GPUs that are suppose to display an interface at boot.

The next Mac Pro will probably have a non optional Apple GPU build in. The question really is what is the second GPU for. I think the MP 2013 already illustrated what Apple is likely going to primarily task it with; compute. If there was an discrete , add-in-card 'compute' card that could just be a Mac (or vastly slimmed down macOS) on a standard Mac SoC. (e.g., a Max , Ultra on a card). And the remote compute basically farmed out like it was a networked Mac on a super fast network connection ( e.g. virtual network over x16 PCI-e v4 would be quite fast).

But if Apple incrementally extended the compute side of Metal ( or reversed the deprecate on OpenCL ... or picked up some other open compute API) that could open door for 3rd party GPGPU.

An optional GPGPU card would add more RAM working space. So can be taking pressure off the internal RAM in addition to adding more computing cores.
 
Whatever they do next - it better be upgradable and have similar RAM/storage/PCIE capability.
It will be interesting to how they interface that stuff with Apple Silicon.

All the AS products so far are 100% non upgradeable, with no expansion except via USB/Thunderbolt. That level of expansion did not sit well with the 2013 MP crowd, so I can't see them make that mistake again after fixing it with the 2019 MP.
 
How does Apple move forward with another MacPro using the design of Apple Silicon? I would think buyers of MacPro would want upgradeable RAM and GPU.

How many high performance GPUs have upgradable RAM?

Those are basically opposites. Either you want a relatively high performance GPU or you want upgradable RAM. Doing both is problematical if sharing a single pool of RAM.

Folks will handwave and say "just clone what Intel/AMD do and completely remove the GPU from the main package". That would be going off in a substantively different direction for very, very , very low volume of CPU only packages. The intel Mac Pro 'worked' because there were more than several dozen other Intel server/workstation designs deployed that consumed the very same CPU packages. Apple is going to sell their SoC to nobody else. So that leads to extremely different economics.

The Mac Pro is highly likely going to have to use what the Studio ( and perhaps an iMac Pro if they bring that back) also uses at some basic building block level of 'chiplets'. The Mac Pro doesn't generation enough volume to effectively economically support a different arch and stack. (if it did have a large economic footprint to run off on a tangent Apple could could just keep using x86_64 options. They have basically said that they aren't. )

The "have to buy cheaper RAM" folks are extremely unlikely going to pay far higher prices for the CPU package modularity. The claim is that modularity is the focus, but it is actually much closer to be commoditization (lower prices) is the primary driver there. Apple left much of the "buy $2,000 box and fill it up with stuff bought elsewhere" market behind with the MP 2019 and its 100% entry price increase.


The 'floor' of RAM configurations will go up. If need an Ulra level SoC than have to buy at least 64GB to even start a purchase. [ Also I have some doubts Apple is going to enable ECC RAM so going far past 256GB RAM capacity probably isn't a good idea. There has little do with modularity of DIMM slots or not. ]


What Apple is more deeply missing here is software, not hardware. Additional GPGPUs to add more compute and local working space RAM for that compute is likely going to be an issue for some. ( the current Mac Pro has Vega Duo and W6800X Duo cards. That second GPU on a card is largely there to compute results more so than drive more screens. ). Scale out the GPUs inside the box for compute scaling.

[ There is a sub-faction that wants to buy 'off the shelf' GPU cards and boot off of those. That is basically toast. Macs don't boot UEFI any more . Nor do they allow firmware hackery in the Mac boot process. Again the commoditization factor isn't really fully there anymore. ]
 
April 2017, not 2018 MacRumors. I remember it clearly, and your link shows it so. Such hope, such promise.

I also remember the audible disbelief when they announce the wheels alone would cost $999.

Yes, this is an immensely powerful machine, but Apple f***** over its prosumer/hobbyist base with these outrageous prices. Despicable.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.