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Both use mobile or integrated GPUs. Apple doesn't make a product with a standard consumer desktop GPU. It's integrated, mobile, or workstation. :(

The integrated options are getting substantially better, though. In a generation or two the mini might be the "xMac".

My other big gripe with the mini is that you can't get the top spec i7. I don't know if that's for heat dissipation reasons, or that they just don't want to cannibalize the top end iMac.
 
Would you be satisfied if they put a better GPU inside the Mac Mini? What is it about wanting a $1500 headless desktop? Just the screen or the lack of expandability? If you want a $1500 headless desktop that'll run for years and years to come why not just pick up a used Mac Pro? I have my 2009 MP and as soon as I throw a 7970 in here and an SSD, I'll have little desire to switch to the nMP for a long time. I realize folks want something new, a whole new product that's built for them, but if you don't want an iMac (which is faster then most old Mac Pros) and you can't accomplish what you need on a Mac Mini (which most consumers can without issue, even feature film editing in 2K that doesn't find much bottleneck until you hit the render button), then your options are limited. I don't really see the need to have a $1500 headless desktop from Apple. I think the whole beef with mobile components has gotta go away, especially if you're not willing to pay for a workstation like the nMP. That's just the way of things at this point, and the mobile chips aren't so bad. ;) You want a $1500 workstation non-workstation. That's never been possible with Apple, not even in the old Mac Pro days.

Yes, I'd settle for a Mac mini with a desktop gpu. Ideally serviceable, since a gpu upgrade down the road is HUGE for longevity, but I know that will never happen. So Mac mini with desktop gpu sounds good. You do indeed have a point with buying an old Mac Pro

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The integrated options are getting substantially better, though. In a generation or two the mini might be the "xMac".

My other big gripe with the mini is that you can't get the top spec i7. I don't know if that's for heat dissipation reasons, or that they just don't want to cannibalize the top end iMac.

Well the full fledged cards are still getting better and will likely always be better. Mac mini with top of the line desktop internals would be great. Make it bigger and make it run cooler.
 
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Not me. This is about right price for workstations, and similar to prices of previous Mac Pros and other workstation vendors like HP.

Remember, these use Xeon-class CPUs - ECC memory, ECC cache, etc.. They're high reliability devices to protect against soft bit errors. These aren't desktop CPUs at all.

I still use my old PowerMac G5 from 12 years ago.

Strangely, my PowerMac G5 hasn't crashed in 9 months while my tricked out Mac Pro crashes about 2-3X a month. Hmm.

The pricing might be in line with other workstations for the niche crowd, but I didn't buy either the G5 or the Mac Pro for that reason, although I know for a fact that my Mac Pro was used in editing several Hollywood flicks just because of who I bought it from. The part about the pricing that is disappointing to me is that there isn't an affordable low end model for the hobbyist type. There were models of the G4 & G5 that were as low as $1299-$1599. This machine starts at $2999. I paid less than half that for my Mac Pro and the machine was less than 2 years old and yes I have FireGL graphics and 16gb memory, SSD, but seriously, for just around $1500 TOTAL! I think there is a market for someone who wants a small powerful desktop not tied to a particular screen size and not a laptop, that could be a media server for the personal home studio & HDTVs & various displays, but is not as dumb as an Apple TV. I'm that market and this machine's starting price is too high. I get the pricing on the add-ons, but the starting price is way out of line with what Apple's pro machines used to start at. Apple always had a low end option. Not so with this Mac Pro.

And newer tech isn't always the most reliable tech despite ECC, XEON. It's wicked fast, true, but not as reliable always. And most people will disagree with me on this too, but my SSD drive is not as reliable as my physical hard drive. I have identically cloned boot drives and for some strange reason the Mac Pro crashes more often with the SSD drive than the HD. Of course I have a very early release lower capacity SSD, but it still intrigues me that it's less reliable.

My parents still use an old PowerMac G4 I used to own and they don't even know much about computers and the damn thing NEVER CRASHES but I can't say the same for my Mac Pro! LOL

And I've checked everything technical/hardware with my Mac Pro and everything checks fine, so my theory on why it crashes more probably lies with Mavericks. :-(
 
Mac mini with top of the line desktop internals would be great. Make it bigger and make it run cooler.

I'd certainly consider that a good model for Apple to release. Don't know why they don't see a market for it. My Mini Server is a little beast, especially as a render node, but the cruddy video hobbles it as a real desktop for what I do.
 
Why would it be recommended to use the OS/Apps SDD drive as as a scratch drive. If hammering tons of data to the SSD scratch drive then more likely want to use a dedicated drive just for that. Remove the OS/Apps from from a 512GB drive and there is should more than plenty room for scratch for a wide variety of workloads.

even could pragmatically crank up put he "overprovision" percentage a bit (e.g., partion 32-40 GB as unformatted ) which would even probably even out read/write response times. [ http://www.anandtech.com/show/6489/playing-with-op ]

If the nMP had a slot for a 2nd internal SSD I'd probably do that. But in reality I will probably partition the internal SSD into 2 or 3 pieces. 1 for OS and Apps, another for media etc. Or are you saying to spend another $1000 on a J4 with SSD's so I can have a slower connection. I want mari using the fastest I/O it can.
 
A loaded iMac costs several hundred dollars MORE than a base model nMP. More importantly, it uses laptop, not even desktop, let alone workstation, parts

Desktop cpu, they stopped using mobile cpu years ago. Mini still uses mobile cpu.

Would you be satisfied if they put a better GPU inside the Mac Mini? What is it about wanting a $1500 headless desktop? Just the screen or the lack of expandability?

For me it would be avoiding the screen, more ram slots, no mobile CPU like the mini has now. And I want to see Apple start using the six core i7 chips, they only cost $300 more than the top quad core i7.

If someone doesn't need the RAW CPU power as much, they can spend what they would've spent on the CPU upgrade or hopping up to the 6-core machine on upgrading the GPU's to the very top instead.

It's hard to imagine too many users who need a ton of GPU power but less CPU power than the top iMac has (or lately, maybe even less CPU power than the top mini). And at a terrible price for that iffy performance.

Well the full fledged cards are still getting better and will likely always be better. Mac mini with top of the line desktop internals would be great. Make it bigger and make it run cooler.

I have been saying that for years. That was their big mistake from day one with the mini. It just doesn't need to be that small, make it just big enough to have desktop components, more ram slots, maybe even a real pcie video card.
 
Yeah, but at least the current Mac Pro is priced and spec'd wide enough for pro-sumers and high end businesses. This model has created an even wider chasm between a loaded iMac and base nMP. The 4-Core base system, which isn't even that powerful compared to a current gen 5,1 model, is ludicrous.

I don't think they expect many pros to go for the base model but offer it anyways to possibly entice people in to the pro market.
 
Maybe the nMP tech will trickle down to the Mini. I really don't want the Mini's format changed as i like being able to park two of them on a 1U shelf keeping my server rack nice and tidy.
 
I will probably try to hold out for a while as Apple works out any possible .0 version bugs and also to see if Nvidia releases replacement frame buffers for the ATI/AMD stuff that Apple is shipping.
 
I got an email from a company I purchase my Apple computers from.
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It looks like they'll be using the Asus instead of their own compatible monitor.
Direct link.
Considering it states pre-order through December 31st, I can't see the actual launch date of this being in December.
 
For the folks who keep complaining about pricing, Apple is putting in server-grade and super premium parts -- and those prices are set by Intel and others. Yes, there is a markup, but there is no way that you would get a Mac Pro for $1999 like 10 years ago.

And...just to be that guy...$1999 spent ten years ago is equivalent to $2540 spent today. :D
 
For me it would be avoiding the screen, more ram slots, no mobile CPU like the mini has now. And I want to see Apple start using the six core i7 chips, they only cost $300 more than the top quad core i7.

That's never going to happen. You gotta think about this more from a business perspective and weighing out options with the average needs. I doubt you'll see 6 cores in the Mac Mini for a long time. The average consumer doesn't need 6 cores. Heck they don't even really need 4 for most of what they're doing.
 
A loaded iMac costs several hundred dollars MORE than a base model nMP. More importantly, it uses laptop, not even desktop, let alone workstation, parts--all so that it can house a screen that many people (myself included) do not need, and absolutely do not want.

I do agree that Apple seems relentlessly to ignore, obviously intentionally, those of us who want a $1,500 headless desktop (myself included). They must continue to conclude that this population will either migrate to a Mac Pro and spend the extra money, or be satisfied with a Mac Mini, because those are the only options that fetch Apple the margins it wants to earn, and it is willing to sacrifice some lost sales in order to make those margins, which of course it has every right to do. Apple has no obligation to satisfy my needs. None. It has the obligation to its shareholders to make decisions likely to earn it the most profits it can while building a viable business model. In that sense, from every indication, it is meeting its obligations quite well.

Valid points. I suppose my comparison with a base 4-Core should have been better written (example a reasonably equipped BTO 4-Core w/ upgrades).

Out of curiosity, how would a base nMP compete against a well equipped (or perhaps loaded) iMac? What do you believe the price difference may be?

I disagree a bit on "why" Apple seems to be neglecting a midtower/etc system to fill the gap between an iMac and base nMP. There's a decent market clamoring for such a system, either gamers (was quite surprised to learn they make a good deal of money testing/developing products, now even more so in the OS X market), prosumers who need more BTO options, even residential customers.

I switched my father, now 70, to OS X with a PowerMac G5. At that time, most tech savvy people I knew didn't like the idea of an all-in-one system, especially the built in display. Moving from a mid-tower Windows system to a similar Mac made sense, allowed him to use his monitor, upgrade the system, having more "freedom" with its use.

I suppose my point is that there are many in this "grey area" who would jump at a reasonably equipped Mac mid-tower, with price points similar to the PowerMac G4/5's. Apple does not always know what is best for the consumer, Jobs almost killed the Mac Pro until he was talked out of it, and the iPhone 5c hasn't been the most successful product launch. Sometimes, the old proverb, "the customer is always right", does ring true. :)

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I don't think they expect many pros to go for the base model but offer it anyways to possibly entice people in to the pro market.

Absolutely. I would be enticed, but it would be a downgrade from my current Mac Pro5,1 and I would have to spend more on external chassises for my internal drives, etc. At that point, I may as well bite the bullet on the 8 or 12 Core.
 
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That's never going to happen.

I didn't say it was going to happen, I was just answering the question what people wanted in a headless box. And no, the mini isn't going to have six cores any time soon, based on the size and heat requirements it's using mobile chips and couldn't handle a six core CPU.

If Apple didn't fetishize size so much they could put a six core in the iMac (or create a real headless mid level model). If it wasn't for the heat issues there wouldn't be any other reason not to do it in the iMac regardless of how many users may "need" it, it's just another CPU that can slot into that same motherboard.
 
I just want a computer that's faster than a Mac Mini and which has a video card that I can upgrade myself when faster ones come out. I don't need a $3K powerhouse.

Also I don't want an iMac since I don't want to re-buy a monitor whenever I upgrade my computer.

Apparently I'm alone in this, since Apple offers no such computer.

A comp like that makes too much sense, so it won't happen. Might just need to grab a previous gen mac pro off ebay. That's what I did, and I didn't have to shell out much, plus I got the expandability I need for future applications.
 
I got an email from a company I purchase my Apple computers from.
Image
It looks like they'll be using the Asus instead of their own compatible monitor.
Direct link.
Considering it states pre-order through December 31st, I can't see the actual launch date of this being in December.


The savings on tax and the coupon make this a no brainer.
 
This is touching on the why of my upgrade. I have the opportunity to break into some nontrivial VFX gigs with my little independent studio but my current hardware won't cut it so I need to add this rig to my arsenal.

I salute your effort. A good VFX guy that is not a flake and delivers on schedule is worth their weight in gold. Seen many big studios contract guys like you when their latest crop of art school students hit the wall on a production deadline.
 
i'm sitting this one out..and when the next generation comes out..hopefully it will be LOT better then this first one (even though it's not out yet).
 
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