MP 7,1 Mac Pro... did they shoot themselves in the foot?

[Alaska_guy]

I think its pretty solid that most would agree that their new machine is for big production houses and not middle class/upper class prosumers... I get that the iMac pro is their thought process on what prosumers should be using.. I just think they missed the market space.

They should produce a "Mac Pro lite" or they will just be missing a big market space.

I for one am already looking at building an i7/i9 PC based build and going hackintosh since seeing their release. I imagine there are a lot of others out there looking to do the same.

$2000-$2500 market place would be ideal to grab most prosumers. Especially considering i9 9900k machines with high end graphics cards are in this price point and are no slouch. Yes, the upgrade path is pretty limited after that due to the inability to add a second processor, but the single core performance is well worth the trade off of xeons if your workflow doesn't require insane multicore dual proc needs. They could even do xeon processors as a high tier option.

I personally was hoping for something along the lines below, with the option to upgrade trays to dual xeon later down the road if needed.

i7/i9 - Mac Pro Lite
Single Xeon - Mac Pro
Dual Xeon - Mac Pro Developer Edition

 

[leman]

There is definitely space for a more prosumer-oriented modular Mac desktop. The issue is, Apple never really had this option since it delegates this segment to their all in ones... what they could do though, and what would make a lot of people happy, is making the Mac Mini more modular.

 

[Jegriva]

Yeah, basically the iMac i9 encompasses the 2000-3000$ cMP range, now. And it isn't a bad machine, per se. You can still add the RAM. For now.

 

[crjackson2134]

I think its pretty solid that most would agree that their new machine is for big production houses and not middle class/upper class prosumers... I get that the iMac pro is their thought process on what prosumers should be using.. I just think they missed the market space.

It's all a matter of perspective. I don't think they missed the mark they were shooting for. I don't need a machine like this. I don't even NEED my MP51.

However, if I decide I really want a 7,1 machine (as overkill as it is for someone like me). I'll buy it and forge forward. I'm currently very happy with my 5,1 but I may get the URGE for newer tech in a couple years... Or even in a few months. It's not a cheap machine, and it was never meant to be. If it were anything less, you'd have just a many (possibly even more) people complaining that it wasn't really a "Pro" machine because it's not powerful enough.

If you need it, just buy it... If you want it really bad, just buy it...

If you can't afford it, you have nothing to worry about. The decision was made for you already. You just buy what you can afford. The iMac is a very good option too...

 

[thevault]

You will always have people complaining about price because they can't afford but I think the reasonable rub is what you're get for the money. Present base price on MP is on the high side with what is offered.

 

[tsialex]

I think its pretty solid that most would agree that their new machine is for big production houses and not middle class/upper class prosumers... I get that the iMac pro is their thought process on what prosumers should be using.. I just think they missed the market space.

They should produce a "Mac Pro lite" or they will just be missing a big market space.

I for one am already looking at building an i7/i9 PC based build and going hackintosh since seeing their release. I imagine there are a lot of others out there looking to do the same.

$2000-$2500 market place would be ideal to grab most prosumers. Especially considering i9 9900k machines with high end graphics cards are in this price point and are no slouch. Yes, the upgrade path is pretty limited after that due to the inability to add a second processor, but the single core performance is well worth the trade off of xeons if your workflow doesn't require insane multicore dual proc needs. They could even do xeon processors as a high tier option.

I personally was hoping for something along the lines below, with the option to upgrade trays to dual xeon later down the road if needed.

i7/i9 - Mac Pro Lite
Single Xeon - Mac Pro
Dual Xeon - Mac Pro Developer Edition

Current Dual Gold/Platinum Scalable Xeons are only found on servers that cost a lot more than 5k. Intel has been packing multiple cores inside of the processor package for years. We won't see anymore workstations with multiprocessors like it was common around MP4,1 and MP5,1 time, MP7,1 already has 28 core support.

 

[NoBoMac]

They should produce a "Mac Pro lite" or they will just be missing a big market space.

Quantify "big market space".

Imo, don't think many people out there, outside of one's inner circle of friends, that want/need prosumer modular Macs. If so, the trash can Pro would have been a bigger seller. Ditto Minis. Apple only sells a few million machines per quarter, and seems like mostly laptops, seeing how many people out there at airport, coffee shops, etc. have one. Have three family members that have iMacs, but also augment with MB Pro and Airs in one case.

Just don't see the market that the tinkerers think there is.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Dual Xeons today are only found on servers that cost a lot more than 5 figures.

Assuming the minimum 5 figures is 10,000 you're only off by a factor of 4.

 

[tsialex]

Assuming the minimum 5 figures is 10,000 you're only off by a factor of 4.

I'm not comparing with old E5 Xeons dual socket servers, that you get around $2k5, but with Gold/Platinum Xeon Scalable of MP7,1 level.

 

[Glockworkorange]

I think its pretty solid that most would agree that their new machine is for big production houses and not middle class/upper class prosumers... I get that the iMac pro is their thought process on what prosumers should be using.. I just think they missed the market space.

They should produce a "Mac Pro lite" or they will just be missing a big market space.

I for one am already looking at building an i7/i9 PC based build and going hackintosh since seeing their release. I imagine there are a lot of others out there looking to do the same.

$2000-$2500 market place would be ideal to grab most prosumers. Especially considering i9 9900k machines with high end graphics cards are in this price point and are no slouch. Yes, the upgrade path is pretty limited after that due to the inability to add a second processor, but the single core performance is well worth the trade off of xeons if your workflow doesn't require insane multicore dual proc needs. They could even do xeon processors as a high tier option.

I personally was hoping for something along the lines below, with the option to upgrade trays to dual xeon later down the road if needed.

i7/i9 - Mac Pro Lite
Single Xeon - Mac Pro
Dual Xeon - Mac Pro Developer Edition

The $2000-$2500.00 market? That’s 15 inch MacBook Pro/iMac territory.

 

[lparsons21]

You will always have people complaining about price because they can't afford but I think the reasonable rub is what you're get for the money. Present base price on MP is on the high side with what is offered.

But I doubt they’ll sell a lot of the base model. The market for a machine like this would be with a fair bit of upgrading from the base model.

 

[Thysanoptera]

I'm not comparing with old E5 Xeons dual socket servers, that you get around $2k5, but with Gold/Platinum Xeon Scalable of MP7,1 level.

By factor of 2 then. And btw. 7.1 uses Workstation processors, the W series, not the gold/platinum ones.

 

[leman]

And btw. 7.1 uses Workstation processors, the W series, not the gold/platinum ones.

Isn’t that his entire point? Nowadays scalable Xeons are more expensive and more niche. So the multi-CPU workstations that we’re a normal occurrence 10 years ago are now being replaced by systems where multiple CPUs are combined on the same package.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Isn’t that his entire point? Nowadays scalable Xeons are more expensive and more niche. So the multi-CPU workstations that we’re a normal occurrence 10 years ago are now being replaced by systems where multiple CPUs are combined on the same package.

I was just responding to blatant misinformation that you need 5 figures to get dual socket workstation nowadays, which was later narrowed that it only applies to gold and above.

If you need 28 cores I bet you could use 56 - and that's the market Apple is aiming for. So I think dual socket does still make sense.

 

[tsialex]

I was just responding to blatant misinformation that you need 5 figures to get dual socket workstation nowadays, which was later narrowed that it only applies to gold and above.

If you need 28 cores I bet you could use 56 - and that's the market Apple is aiming for. So I think dual socket does still make sense.

Dual socket makes sense, but not as ten years ago.

Btw, where are dual socket workstations using Gold Xeons with 5K price point? A naked Z8 dual socket with Xeon Scalable Gold 5122 starts $6K8 for the basic config without any RAM:

 

[pl1984]

I think Apple did a great job with this new Mac Pro. I'm not a fan of its appearance (maybe it'll look better in person) but otherwise it's about everything everyone has been demanding of them. As for price I don't think it's out of line with similar capability systems.

As for missing the mark well, what you're referring to is the mythical xMac which has been discussed ad nauseum since the discontinuation of the PowerMac G4 and previous systems offered by Apple. I would love to see such a system but at least this new Mac Pro didn't do away with what we loved about the cMP form factor.
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Quantify "big market space".

Imo, don't think many people out there, outside of one's inner circle of friends, that want/need prosumer modular Macs. If so, the trash can Pro would have been a bigger seller. Ditto Minis. Apple only sells a few million machines per quarter, and seems like mostly laptops, seeing how many people out there at airport, coffee shops, etc. have one. Have three family members that have iMacs, but also augment with MB Pro and Airs in one case.

Just don't see the market that the tinkerers think there is.

How do you know this? It can't be ascertained by sales numbers because Apple doesn't offer such a system. IMO there are plenty of people who choose iMacs and laptops because Apple doesn't offer a prosumer expandable (anyone know what makes this new Mac Pro "modular"?) Mac.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Dual socket makes sense, but not as ten years ago.

Btw, where are dual socket workstations using Gold Xeons with 5K price point? A naked Z8 dual socket with Xeon Scalable Gold 5122 starts $6K8 for the basic config without any RAM:

Still, Apple handicapped the Mac Pro from day zero, with half the possible processing power, half the maximum RAM (although that's pretty difficult for me to imagine being a problem) and half of possible PCIe lanes. On top of that, it is cheaper to achieve specific performance with dual CPUs vs single with 2x cores.

You can get dual socket with cheapest gold Xeons from Dell for exactly 5k, with 32GB RAM, crappy GPU and HDD but technically complete and working.

 

[pl1984]

Still, Apple handicapped the Mac Pro from day zero, with half the possible processing power, half the maximum RAM (although that's pretty difficult for me to imagine being a problem) and half of possible PCIe lanes. On top of that, it is cheaper to achieve specific performance with dual CPUs vs single with 2x cores.

You can get dual socket with cheapest gold Xeons from Dell for exactly 5k, with 32GB RAM, crappy GPU and HDD but technically complete and working.

One could argue you get better performance from a dual socket system because two processors which offer the same core count as a single processor tend to have higher base and turbo boost frequencies. And, as you've mentioned, two processors provide additional memory and PCIe support.

Having said that I would have preferred a dual CPU capable Mac Pro but I think this new version is pretty darn good.

 

[jerwin]

Dual socket makes sense, but not as ten years ago.

Btw, where are dual socket workstations using Gold Xeons with 5K price point? A naked Z8 dual socket with Xeon Scalable Gold 5122 starts $6K8 for the basic config without any RAM:

View attachment 841125

I'm not sure why you would want to, but you could spec out a Z8 with dual Xeon Bronze CPUs...

 

[tsialex]

I'm not sure why you would want to, but you could spec out a Z8 with dual Xeon Bronze CPUs...

The point of all this is, a prosumer Mac won't have a dual socket logic board today.

A prosumer should be cheaper/simpler than what Apple is offering with MP7,1. MP7,1 is a lot over-engineered from what is needed for most people here. I bet that almost everyone that have a MP5,1 today want an upgradeable Mac half way between the Mac mini 2018 and the Mac Pro 2019, a Mac mini with PCIe slots and two more RAM sockets with a nice but not over-engineered case, a new version of the mythical xMac. For people that like the MP6,1, MP7,1 it's probably even worse.

Yesterday I read on Twitter something along the lines that Apple did what we wanted with MP7,1 but not what we needed and I think that's correct to a certain point. MP7,1 is over the top for most professionals.

 

[crjackson2134]

The point of all this is, a prosumer Mac won't have a dual socket today.

A prosumer should be cheaper/simpler than what Apple is offering with MP7,1. MP7,1 is a lot over-engineered from what is needed for most people here. I bet that almost everyone that have a MP5,1 today want an upgradeable Mac half way between the Mac mini 2018 and the Mac Pro 2019, a Mac mini with PCIe slots and two more RAM sockets with a nice desktop and not over-engineered case, a new version of the mythical xMac.

Yesterday I read on Twitter something along the lines that Apple did what we wanted with MP7,1 but now what we needed and I think that's correct to a certain point. MP7,1 is over the top for most professionals.

For the sake of some contrast....

I’m happy with the 5,1, and when I upgrade to the 7,1, It’ll be just as overkill, and over priced, as the 5,1 was for me when I purchased it. I’ll be happy with it, and I’ll spend way too much money upgrading it with, more things I don’t need

 

[tsialex]

For the sake of some contrast....

I’m happy with the 5,1, and when I upgrade to the 7,1, It’ll be just as overkill, and over priced, as the 5,1 was for me when I purchased it. I’ll be happy with it, and I’ll spend way too much money upgrading it with, more things I don’t need

No doubt about that, but if Apple had a prosumer upgradeable Mac between the mini 2018 and Pro 2019, you would buy it? Or you still go for a MP7,1?

 

[crjackson2134]

No doubt about that, but if Apple had a prosumer upgradeable Mac between the mini 2018 and Pro 2019, you would buy it? Or you still go for a MP7,1?

We’ll never know...

I’d probably still go for the 7,1

 

[AidenShaw]

No doubt about that, but if Apple had a prosumer upgradeable Mac between the mini 2018 and Pro 2019, you would buy it? Or you still go for a MP7,1?

If Apple made an MP7,1 with support for off-the-shelf Turing GPUs - my "cart" would have a dozen of them.

Without Nvidia, my cart is empty - and will stay empty.

 

[tsialex]

If Apple made an MP7,1 with support for off-the-shelf Turing GPUs - my "cart" would have a dozen of them.

Without Nvidia, my cart is empty - and will stay empty.

I bet that this is more a business/philosophical problem between NVIDIA and Apple than a technical one and NVIDIA GPUs would work with drivers.