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Thanks for the comments. It seems like I would get a significant gain from it, or at least the best gain I could with only one non-SSD drive, as I really don't want to mess around with a striped RAID for the boot disk, and it would mostly be for loading apps. The writing would all go to the Samsung 1TBs, which are plenty fast for that. I think I'll pull the trigger on the Velociraptor, then. But what's a good way to apportion the remaining 3 1 TB drives? A RAID1 and a backup disk? Unfortunately the fact that there's just 3 of them makes it a bit awkward. Were there four, I'd seriously consider a RAID5.
 
Thanks for the comments. It seems like I would get a significant gain from it, or at least the best gain I could with only one non-SSD drive, as I really don't want to mess around with a striped RAID for the boot disk, and it would mostly be for loading apps. The writing would all go to the Samsung 1TBs, which are plenty fast for that. I think I'll pull the trigger on the Velociraptor, then. But what's a good way to apportion the remaining 3 1 TB drives? A RAID1 and a backup disk? Unfortunately the fact that there's just 3 of them makes it a bit awkward. Were there four, I'd seriously consider a RAID5.
If you have the time, you could try a 3 drive RAID 5, and test the throughput, and decide from there.
 
TheStrudel,

Buy another Samsung 1TB drive and put all the disks in a RAID 5 array. Put everything on the array. You will still get killer speeds and higher reliability than running a single boot drive and RAID 0 array.

Who started this fascination with single drive OS and application setup? It makes no sense.

S-
 
X25s will run circles around the Velociraptors.

Of course it will, but at 2x the cost and 1/4 the capacity they are still at a $/GB disadvantage. If resources are unlimited the X25 your heart away. I'll head toward "X25s" in a year or two when the prices are more competitive.
 
Who started this fascination with single drive OS and application setup? It makes no sense.
S-
Not necessarily, particularly in a Mac Pro.

It comes down to cost, available space, and skill levels with RAID. Every thing's a compromise, and is situation dependent.

You have a computer with limited space. Using 3.5" drives, you can get 8 in at best, using specialty mounts at ~$130 for each optical bay, and an external enclosure for the optical drive. Not exactly cheap, and not everyone has the ability or inclination to DIY their own mounts. But I haven't seen too many forum members willing to use this many drives, or these mounts.

Yes, I agree, placing the OS on a RAID 5, is a really good idea. But how many people are that skilled with RAID, and truly understand the implications when something goes wrong?

As in, necessary steps to recover, time involved,... particularly when the OS shares the same drives as the data?

To me, using a 4 drive RAID 5 in the sleds, and a single OS drive mounted in the optical bay makes sense in such a compromised situation. The mount is cheap, it's easy to do, and if the OS does go, it can be repaired easily, without affecting the array. And if somehow, the array does fail, the OS is still intact, making the recovery much simpler, as the OS doesn't go with it. Two separate RAID 5's are better for this, but not really feasible due to cost and space constraints alone. If $$$ is unlimited, and an external solution can be implemented, it's another story. Then it's only a matter of skill, and their willingness to learn. ;)

But cost does factor in. Always in my experience. Yes, a fifth drive and mount is more expensive than just using a 4 drive RAID 5 for everything. But is doable financially speaking vs. 2 separate 4 drive RAID 5 arrays (true split of OS and data w/ equal performance/redundancy). But again, skill level can't be ignored. A single separate OS drive can save major aggravation for someone who doesn't have massive experience with RAID, and will be doing all installation and system maintenance themselves. Yes, they can learn, but how willing are they, particularly when it tends to be after something has gone wrong?
Rather than through experimentation of failure recovery prior to installing the data?

It's not the ideal RAID system. It is a compromise of multiple factors, and not just the hardware.

Now does this make any sense?
 
I agreed with you before you started the explanation. All of the bays on a single RAID5 is too much of an all-my-eggs-in-one-basket situation. If I accumulate enough cash and jobs, I'll go RAID5 on an external array like the one I linked to earlier (and perhaps a RAID0+1 or internal RAID5 for the OS+apps). Do you think it's worth bothering with the three drive RAID5? I also like to buy out for expandability, so ideally I'd get a RocketRaid card with mini-SAS out and iPass or something for the three internally, but I'm not sure if that's doable. I'm not nearly enough of a RAID expert to know an ideal strategy with the various cards.

Also, sidewinder, from what I've read, I'll take a speed hit on Photoshop and Final Cut if my scratch disk is the same array as the boot/app disk. Since you can't choose which drive they're reading/writing to, it could (would?) be the same one and your speed gains from separating those are eliminated.
 
nanofrog,

It doesn't make sense for the following reasons:

1. If someone is going to setup a RAID 5 array, they are buying extra hardware and will need to educate themselves to some degree. Assuming the hardware is able to boot from the RAID 5 array, this "education" could include learning how to setup a RAID 5 array with the OS and applications. It's not that hard.

2. A single 4 or 5 disk RAID 5 array system is MUCH less prone to failure than a 1 disk OS and application + 4 disk RAID 5 array system. Two different disk subsystems, one with zero protection from failure, are much more prone to failure. At least twice as likely.

3. If someone loses their RAID 5 array that includes the OS and applications, how much harder is that to recover from than losing all of ones data on a RAID 5 array with a separate OS and application drive? Losing the OS and applications is such a small problem compared to losing ones data.

As far as I am concerned, if you build a RAID 5 array, you need to keep one spare drive on hand for that array in case you lose a disk. Either that or put an extra drive in the system as a hot spare.

No matter what, I think it is ludicrous to build a system with RAID (>0) where the OS and application drive is not at least mirrored....

S-
 
I agreed with you before you started the explanation. All of the bays on a single RAID5 is too much of an all-my-eggs-in-one-basket situation.
I don't like the all-in-one-basket philosphy either, ;) but I was simply trying to clear up my position for Sidewinder. :)

I certainly realize it isn't ideal either, but as I stated earlier, it's a compromise. The basis of engineering. :D
If I accumulate enough cash and jobs, I'll go RAID5 on an external array like the one I linked to earlier (and perhaps a RAID0+1 or internal RAID5 for the OS+apps). Do you think it's worth bothering with the three drive RAID5? I also like to buy out for expandability, so ideally I'd get a RocketRaid card with mini-SAS out and iPass or something for the three internally, but I'm not sure if that's doable. I'm not nearly enough of a RAID expert to know an ideal strategy with the various cards.
Hard to say for a 3 drive RAID5, as I don't know exactly how much throughput you need vs. want. ;) Obviously, as you add drives, the speed increases, but there's limits. That's one of the reasons for experimentation. The other is to learn the specifics of a setup, in terms of fault tolerance behavior. Not all cards are the same. (Interface, not just features). Some have their "quirks", and it's a good idea to know what they are before trusting your data to it.

As for future expansion, there's a few options, depending on what you want to do, and how long before you implement it. For example, you could choose one of Areca's ARC-1680 series (SAS, and some have an external 4 port connection). All you would need is an external enclosure, drives, and a cable. Another possibility, is to get a card with additional internal ports, external enclosure, and the proper cable (run it from the interior of the Mac Pro externally through an open slot).

If it will be some time before you're able to do this (say 1+ yrs), the lower cost card that can't allow for this type of expansion may be a better option, as they're always improving RAID cards. More information would be helpful in this regard. ;)

Total number of drives/time frame
Location of drives (Don't mix internal and external drives, unless you're truly aware of the possible consequences). Hint: Power outage issues
Also, sidewinder, from what I've read, I'll take a speed hit on Photoshop and Final Cut if my scratch disk is the same array as the boot/app disk. Since you can't choose which drive they're reading/writing to, it could (would?) be the same one and your speed gains from separating those are eliminated.
If the scratch/boot/apps are all on the same array, and being accessed simultaneously, there will be a performance penalty. Now whether it would completely negate the performance gains, is a variable. It would depend on time distribution of access, and the actual throughput of the array under the specific conditions. (Keep in mind, throughput varies on the type of file access). That is, small files being randomly accessed won't run at the same throughput as say large database files.

You would notice it more in a smaller array, so additional drives would help in this case. :)
 
If I expanded out like I've thought of eventually doing - probably in 2-3 years - it would be to a fully external RAID5/6 with probably ~8 drives for all kinds of photo, video applications. I'd then possibly run a RAID5 concurrently in the internal bays for just the OS and a media library. It'd be cool, but to me at this point, laughably expensive. But if all I wanted for the next two years was to RAID5 my three 1TB drives, what would be the cheapest, easiest way to do that? And if I did, would that necessitate iPassing them all onto the card? Would it still be possible to keep the boot Velociraptor isolated from the RAID card entirely? As a side note, I do keep this whole thing on a UPS, so I'm not overly worried about power outage issues, but right now it seems like any RAIDing besides softRAID is a little out of my price range. At least, not until I graduate and have more time to devote to my business.
 
TheStrudel,

Who started this fascination with single drive OS and application setup? It makes no sense.

S-

Well, what do you need a fast system and application drive for anyways ?
Boot and app launch times don't matter, and programs' speed depends mostly on CPU power and RAM, in some instances the GPU, too .
Plus, fast scratch and data drives/Raid arrays .

Imho, if one talks speed, one needs to distinguish between system/apps, scratch/data, and storage/backup, and go from there.
 
1. If someone is going to setup a RAID 5 array, they are buying extra hardware and will need to educate themselves to some degree. Assuming the hardware is able to boot from the RAID 5 array, this "education" could include learning how to setup a RAID 5 array with the OS and applications. It's not that hard.
1. IF the card can boot. Given $$$ constraints, this may not be possible, as not everyone is capable of that level of expenditure. I know, this seems like a nit pick, but cost is not secondary. Personally, I really like cards that can boot, and I take advantage of it. Separate arrays as well. ;)

But only because I know how to take advantage of it, and am willing to spend the necessary cash to get it. :)

2. I thought as you do at one time about if they buy it, they will learn. Unfortunately, my experience has taught me otherwise. :(

People forget. Maybe they can't wrap their heads around it. Ultimately, you can't assume they will obtain the necessary knowledge. It doesn't always happen, so this individual needs a solution tailored to their abilities.

Ideally, they will learn, and have the features available to them with what ever hardware they purchased, and can then take advantage of it. Not always possible though, and is usually budget related.
2. A single 4 or 5 disk RAID 5 array system is MUCH less prone to failure than a 1 disk OS and application + 4 disk RAID 5 array system. Two different disk subsystems, one with zero protection from failure, are much more prone to failure. At least twice as likely.
I do understand the specifics, including the statistics.

But how do you know they're capable of understanding this, or can master the skill level required to deal with it?

Here's an example. Say the everything is on the array. Great. Now something does go wrong. Then to discover, even if they have the skills, they don''t have the needed clone to reinstall the OS. :eek: Simple, but it happens. Now imagine they don't actually understand the details of what's needed to recover the system. Disaster. Hours to be spent on the phone or worse, e-mail communication to an overseas based manufacturer.

Oh, wait. Their computer's DOA, and they can't even e-mail, as they don't have another system readily available. Now compound this with the user being self employed video editor. It can get ugly. Fast.
3. If someone loses their RAID 5 array that includes the OS and applications, how much harder is that to recover from than losing all of ones data on a RAID 5 array with a separate OS and application drive? Losing the OS and applications is such a small problem compared to losing ones data.
For someone who truly understands RAID, and how to recover, not that much. ;) And yes, the data is far more important. Hence the separate drive. It at least takes that into consideration.

But for someone who hasn't learned, is un-inclined, or is incapable, it's another story. This situation is where the single OS drive can make sense. This individual can understand it, as they should have the skills to place an OS on a single drive. (This is where I draw my minimum skills level). From there, either the system is repaired, or at least can then go recover the array.

As far as I am concerned, if you build a RAID 5 array, you need to keep one spare drive on hand for that array in case you lose a disk. Either that or put an extra drive in the system as a hot spare.
In an ideal world, yes. And large enterprises, or people who know this (whether by training or learned "the hard way"), would.

But when thinking in terms of an individual, this may in fact, not be the case. Either they don't understand the need, don't care, or can't afford it at the time. Then, eventually, the s*** hits the fan. In the case of spare parts, from drives and cables, to a simple OS clone, there's not much that can be done. Either they have them, or they don't. At least the clone is somewhat easier to convince someone to have available, as it's cheap.
No matter what, I think it is ludicrous to build a system with RAID (>0) where the OS and application drive is not at least mirrored....
S-
Unfortunately, not everyone would agree with this, particularly if they can't understand it. Some will reason it out, and compromise. Data safety taking precedent, while OS/apps are far down on the list of considerations.

From what I've seen, graphics/video editing seems to follow this particular logic, and it's typically due to cost from the information I've been given by multiple individuals. As it happens, they like Mac Pros for some reason. ;)

Ultimately, I've learned not to ignore the human element, and the budget limitations experienced by individuals.

This seems to be the sticking point of our differences. :eek: ;)
 
Getting confused here; are there actually people who work with their computers and do not have a fully functional system backup handy, do not have at least dual file storage, do not backup current projects they are working on several times a day , and do not have enough drives available to get them up and running again quickly in case of a break-down ?
 
Getting confused here; are there actually people who work with their computers and do not have a fully functional system backup handy, do not have at least dual file storage, do not backup current projects they are working on several times a day , and do not have enough drives available to get them up and running again quickly in case of a break-down ?
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, or serious, so I'll play it safe. ;)

Yup. :eek: :rolleyes: Usually due to overconfidence, lack of funds, forgetfulness, or just lack of realization/understanding that even RAID have problems. :(
 
nanofrog,

I've been in the industry since 1980 doing technical support, consulting, systems design, etc. If there is one thing I have learned is you don't make recommendations based on what you expect out of people. You make recommendations based on what is the right course to take. If they choose to go down a different path, they take on the responsibility of any problems and the consequences.

Suggesting anything less appears to be a rubber stamp. People will always take the easier and cheaper route if they think it is okay. You are telling them that it is okay to take the cheaper route and you are not calling out the pitfalls. If they are going to run a RAID 5 array for data, they should at least run a RAID 1 array for OS and applications. And they should have at least one spare drive (two if each array uses a different type drive). As cheap as hard drives are today, if they can't afford to do this, they probably shouldn't be doing anything like it the first place.

The "people are ignorant and can't be expected to do the right thing", "people won't learn or remember how do it", and "people can't afford it" arguments are cop outs. Recommend the right solutions and let people decide what they can afford and are capable of dealing with.

This concept of offering half solutions is flawed because these people actually think they have security when they don't. You run a RAID 5 array? You need a spare drive handy. You are not going to include the OS and application disk in the RAID 5 array? You need to at least RAID 1 that disk. And you still need to do backups on top of all of this.

S-
 
nanofrog,

I've been in the industry since 1980 doing technical support, consulting, systems design, etc. If there is one thing I have learned is you don't make recommendations based on what you expect out of people. You make recommendations based on what is the right course to take. If they choose to go down a different path, they take on the responsibility of any problems and the consequences.
Every situation is different. If a user gives such indications for use, then by all means, create the most secure data system possible, given the current technology. Otherwise, you do tailor a system to an individual purpose.

In the case of an OS drive, for workstation use that doesn't need 24/7 availability, has limited drive space, and budgets, you adjust accordingly. Yes there's risk. Now, if a compromise is to be made within similar constraints, do you place the additional risk to the data (potentially irretrevable), or an OS installation (which can be restored from original media, if a clone isn't present), what do you do?

If I'm confident a user can handle the installation onto the same drives, I'll send them down that path. If not, at least theres protection for the data. Unfortunately, nothing is absolutely fail proof, and some degree of risk is present.

Not everyone automatically understands everything, let alone the risks. Given this, I've taken the approach of giving information in pieces, rather than a single, massive chunk. Give them some topics to research, and let them learn. I found it does help. Slower yes, but I've noticed better results this way, as they aren't totally overwhelmed. Provided they do the research, questions tend to follow, and the process continues. Not always just via the forum. I've had phone conversations, PM's, and e-mail contacts with members.

In the cases where the person understands what they need, and how to do it, I've not noticed the posts going on for long.
Suggesting anything less appears to be a rubber stamp. People will always take the easier and cheaper route if they think it is okay. You are telling them that it is okay to take the cheaper route and you are not calling out the pitfalls. If they are going to run a RAID 5 array for data, they should at least run a RAID 1 array for OS and applications. And they should have at least one spare drive (two if each array uses a different type drive). As cheap as hard drives are today, if they can't afford to do this, they probably shouldn't be doing anything like it the first place.
I try to pry the information first. Then go from there.

Granted, some form of RAID is better than none at all for the OS drive, but it isn't always possible. But to make the statement that reads as "anyone who doesn't is a total imbecile", isn't polite, and seems to ignore specifics to the application. Now as a result of working with people, and not all are fully knowledgeable pros, I have added this to the mix as well as budgets. We live in the real world, and not everyone has the financial backing of a fortune 100 company, or the same level of knowledge of people who do nothing but RAID for a living.

At least try to guide them a little, if not outright teach them first, before jumping to that extreme a conclusion. And if you do, don't just blurt out that someone is an idiot. Even if you aren't in sales/support.
The "people are ignorant and can't be expected to do the right thing", "people won't learn or remember how do it", and "people can't afford it" arguments are cop outs. Recommend the right solutions and let people decide what they can afford and are capable of dealing with.
You missed the point.

Every case is different. I was trying to give an idea (example) that tends to be repeated on this forum. Not overall, or would apply to every single situation on the planet.
 
nanofrog,

Where did I say anyone was an imbecile??????

What I am talking about is the fact that you, and others, recommend that people use dangerously insecure setups. People looking to do RAID 5 are looking for data security. Well, part of that is OS and application security.

If you recommend that they use a single disk for OS and applications, you are creating an illusion that it is okay to do so and is secure. Well, the bottom line is that it is not. Some people don't know any better and are relying on your word.

I have yet to see you answer a request about RAID and suggest anything other than a separate OS /application drive. I have yet to see you recommend any sort RAID (>0) for that drive. In fact, I have yet to you recommend that people should have a spare drive handy for their RAID arrays.

My point is that you should tell people the right way to do it first. If they balk at the cost, then options can be discussed. You, and others, seem to skip to the cheap way out to start with. This is where people start because of it. They build their systems to this bare minimum and may be okay for a long time. But one day, they are going to be screwed.

Why? Because they have this false sense of security because they have a RAID 5 system. Nothing could go that far wrong. They don't need to back it up. It is impervious to failure.

But no, you tell then to go ahead and build a 3 drive RAID 5 array with a single OS/Application drive. No mention of the insecurity there. No mention of keeping a spare drive for the array around. No mention of backups....

S-
 
Does this plan for internal HD's make sense?

Bay 1 - 150 GB WD VelociRaptor (OS and Applications) - I will use the 320 GB HD that came with the computer in an external enclosure to backup Bay 1 periodically.
Bay 2 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Store all of my data (I'm a photographer)
Bay 3 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Backup of Bay 2 using Time Machine
Bay 4 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Second backup of Bay 2 using Time Machine

1 External HD for a third backup of Bay 2. Being that I'm a photographer and my images are extremely important to me I would like to have a third copy of my files that I keep offsite.
 
Sidewinder, I believe it's worth pointing out that he was responding to my original plan, in which I outlined my plan to back-up the drive externally regularly. I don't think it's unreasonable of him to expect a Mac Pro owner to understand the risks of hard drive operation and know that they should back up, particularly if they're even considering something as complicated as RAID5. He already knew that I back up - and plan to continue - backing up the OS drive regularly. He also acknowledged that graphics and video people, such as myself, place comparably little importance on the boot drive as opposed to our media (job) hard drives and stand to lose more from the possible thousands of dollars of mission-critical data on those hard drives. Being how I already mentioned backing up - and I believe, seem competent enough to figure that basic element out (though apparently not to you) he probably didn't think it was necessary to mention since it wasn't a question I asked. Likewise with me asking about RAID5. I already knew in the case of RAID1 or RAID5 that you need to have drives around to replace one if a failure occurs. I don't think it's necessary to skewer him over the RAID advice he's giving to me.
 
Does this plan for internal HD's make sense?

Bay 1 - 150 GB WD VelociRaptor (OS and Applications) - I will use the 320 GB HD that came with the computer in an external enclosure to backup Bay 1 periodically.
Bay 2 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Store all of my data (I'm a photographer)
Bay 3 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Backup of Bay 2 using Time Machine
Bay 4 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Second backup of Bay 2 using Time Machine

1 External HD for a third backup of Bay 2. Being that I'm a photographer and my images are extremely important to me I would like to have a third copy of my files that I keep offsite.

What about the following config?
Bay 1 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD (Raid 0 with Bay 2)
Bay 2 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD (Raid 0 with Bay 1)
Bay 3 - 2 TB WD Caviar Green HD (announced today) - Backup of Bay1&2

At least that will be my configuration as soon as I get my MacPro. :)
The downside is that the WD Caviar Blacks appear to be really noisy according to reviews.
 
I'm thinking of reconfiguring my drive set-up in my Mac Pro after watching my MBAv2 boot and load apps faster than my quad 3GHz! I was thinking of the following set-up:

Bay1 - 300GB Velociraptor (System Drive)
Bay2 - 300GB Velociraptor (My User)
Bay3 - 750GB Baracuda (Data)
Bay4 - 750GB Time Machine Back-up for Bay1
Bay5 - 750GB Time Machine Back-up for Bay2
Bay6 - 750GB Time Machine Back-up for Bay3

Bay5 & Bay6 will come into existence with MaxUpgrade's optical disk mounting accessory.

I mostly do scientific computing on relatively large files (100MB to 2GB). I don't need excessive drive speed, but I think an upgrade is in order. I also get page outs with 6GB of ram so that will get a bump too. RAM is so cheap these days. I think I paid $600 for 4GB ~1.5 years ago.

Anyways, I already have the 750GB drives so the costs is really just the two velociraptors and the optical mounting system (totalling ~$750), but this isn't too far off from the price of Apple's RAID card.

So which is better? 4x750 as RAID5 or the above. I should point out that everything will be backed-up to an off-sight server too so that isn't currently a concern.

Here's my 2 cents:

I recently simplified my configuration into a single RAID 10 disk:

Bay 1: Caviar Black 1TB --
| Mirror0
Bay 2: Caviar Black 1TB --

Bay 3: Caviar Black 1TB --
| Mirror1
Bay 4: Caviar Black 1TB --

> diskutil createRAID stripe Raid10 JHFS+ Mirror0 Mirror1

Now, all my data is protected and I don't have any special cases to worry about when a drive fails (you know, some partitions are protected and some are not...) Simple & Done. 1.82 GiB usable storage. Also, performance is great. Sustaining 100-150 MB/s second throughput has been observed.

If I need more performance, I would look into getting an SSD for IO bound applications or just purchase a FC card and connected it to a tray of 14 or more disks if I needed some higher throughput numbers.

Subaqua,
 
Does this plan for internal HD's make sense?

Bay 1 - 150 GB WD VelociRaptor (OS and Applications) - I will use the 320 GB HD that came with the computer in an external enclosure to backup Bay 1 periodically.
Bay 2 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Store all of my data (I'm a photographer)
Bay 3 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Backup of Bay 2 using Time Machine
Bay 4 - 1 TB WD Caviar Black HD - Second backup of Bay 2 using Time Machine

1 External HD for a third backup of Bay 2. Being that I'm a photographer and my images are extremely important to me I would like to have a third copy of my files that I keep offsite.
Given that you want security and a good backup system, you might consider the following:

  • RAID 1 bays 2 &3. (Each drive has exactly the same data on it).
  • bay 4: Time Machine, or some other backup program. If large enough, it can be used by both the OS/apps and the RAID1 array. You could also split these onto 2 different drives (one setup as an external, or install in the empty optical bay if available).

My reasoning is this: RAID 1 will keep the data intact with a higher level of redundancy. If one drive fails, the data is still intact. Better than a single drive (2x in this case), and far better than RAID 0 (redundancy = zero, and 2x worse reliability than a single drive). It gets worse as the # of drives increases. (failure rate * # drives)

Reliability would also increase by the use of enterprise drives rather than consumer drives. Please understand you really should keep spares (no matter what drive is used), and not wait for a failure to occur first. (I don't know if you were aware of this information, but now you have it for sure). ;)

If you make a mistake, such as an accidental deletion, it will be duplicated in RAID 1. A true backup will allow you to restore the missing files, provided the backup is contains the files. You might want to put some thought into the frequency of a full backup vs. incremental. As an example, (not necessarily what would be best for you), say 1 week between full backups, and incremental nightly.

Offsite storage is also a wonderful idea. Just keep up with the bill. ;)
 
Sidewinder, I believe it's worth pointing out that he was responding to my original plan, in which I outlined my plan to back-up the drive externally regularly. I don't think it's unreasonable of him to expect a Mac Pro owner to understand the risks of hard drive operation and know that they should back up, particularly if they're even considering something as complicated as RAID5. He already knew that I back up - and plan to continue - backing up the OS drive regularly. He also acknowledged that graphics and video people, such as myself, place comparably little importance on the boot drive as opposed to our media (job) hard drives and stand to lose more from the possible thousands of dollars of mission-critical data on those hard drives. Being how I already mentioned backing up - and I believe, seem competent enough to figure that basic element out (though apparently not to you) he probably didn't think it was necessary to mention since it wasn't a question I asked. Likewise with me asking about RAID5. I already knew in the case of RAID1 or RAID5 that you need to have drives around to replace one if a failure occurs. I don't think it's necessary to skewer him over the RAID advice he's giving to me.
TheStrudel,

I hear what you are saying. I am not trying to skewer him so much as I am respond to the skewering he directed at me. However, the recommendation to use a separate OS/application drive is not unique to this thread.

Also, he said that you can't assume what people know or what they can learn. So him running with your ideas without at least offering up options on the best way to do it is where I have a problem.

The bottom line is that based on what is being recommended around here all the time, it is clear that most think that running a separate OS/application drive is the way to go. No mention is made of RAID 1 for that drive.

Anyway, I am done debating this issue. I guess I will be one of the few that actually recommends better ways of doing RAID.

S-
 
TheStrudel,

I hear what you are saying. I am not trying to skewer him so much as I am respond to the skewering he directed at me.
Your posts came across that way. I attempted to explain it was based on specifics to video/graphics by the individual(from direct contact, such as phone conversations). Getting to the details, I do prefer phone contact, as I found it easier for me. Quicker, and more detailed than just forum, e-mail, or PM (also used). So not all of the information has been discussed on the forum.

It seemed you didn't take that into account whatsoever.

Anyway, I am done debating this issue. I guess I will be one of the few that actually recommends better ways of doing RAID.
S-
Comments like this are what gave me the impression of being skewered. :rolleyes: If that wasn't your intent, great. But please be aware that another person might make such an interpretation.
 
I attempted to explain it was based on specifics to video/graphics by the individual(from direct contact, such as phone conversations). Getting to the details, I do prefer phone contact, as I found it easier for me. Quicker, and more detailed than just forum, e-mail, or PM (also used). So not all of the information has been discussed on the forum.

It seemed you didn't take that into account whatsoever.
How could I be expected to do so? No one made any mention of that here....at least not that was obvious. Did I miss that disclosure somewhere?

It's kind of hard to have a good forum discussion if you leave out significant parts of the discussion, isn't it? Maybe you can see where I get the idea that you don't promote proper solutions? If they aren't in the threads.....how can anyone klnow what you are suggesting.

Finally, you do need to consider that people look at the threads for answers. So if you take a different route to communicate that yet provide only parts of the conversation here, people are missing out on the discussion regarding what is a "best practice" versus the solution someone is will to go with.

Comments like this are what gave me the impression of being skewered. :rolleyes: If that wasn't your intent, great. But please be aware that another person might make such an interpretation.
You were only being skewered because you skewered me. In any case, I am trying to get the best information to be people here and that is not what you have been putting in the public eye.

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