Mac Pro early 2008 power off suddenly alone and gives a long beep on startup

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by telopereira, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. telopereira macrumors newbie

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    #1
    Hello everyone! Can you resolve the problem reported? In february , I had 4 equipment’s with these identical and same problem, some worse than others, and only two barely functioning, others was stopped. They power on normally and suddenly alone they power off , and after that I only can power on again , after hours waiting or only the next day , and when it's power on , on startup , they give me a long beep , before the chime , then I can work for a time (minutes or longtime , it's not secure) . I've sent them to an Apple Authorized Center ,and I had the following diagnostics , have to change the logic board of all and the some have too to change de power supply . And the problem occurred because of electrical problems .
    All places where I have my equipment’s (they are in 4 different places, but I but I have tested them in all four locations) , are electrically grounded , the electrical network stabilized , reviewed annually and I use UPS minimum of 1.5 KVA(I have two UPS of 3.75 KVA) . I tested with the original HDD , with all the applications that I use installed , only with the system installed and the same procedure on a new HDD and got the same result . So , it is not electrical problem . I have iMacs , MacBooks , G5 and MacPro early 2009 working in the same places with no problems . I tested all the sites with three different electricians and all approved my Electricnetworks . As I know, all Apple equipment have
    surge protection, precisely to prevent the components from being damaged by electrical problems.Again , it is not electrical problem .
    How it's so expensive to do this , until now I'm trying to find cheaper solutions .I've cleaned all parts with products that gives better contact and that protect against the oxidation , some equipment’s gave me a survival for a while , but presented the problem again .
    I talked with Apple Computer (from USA) and they do not assume that the problem exists and that many users have the same problem, worldwide. Now I have more 2 equipment’s and others 4 friends with the same problem , here in my city , and have heard about others owners from here , that already have had the same problem .So , only in my city , more than 20 Mac Pros (early 2008) have had the same problem .
    If you're not satisfied with the result of Apple, we will have to press them to assume the defect and promote a recall on these equipment’s. We have many users with the same issue (MacPro off alone) .
     
  2. MacinJosh, Jun 29, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2011

    MacinJosh macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    I'm no expert but I do have some idea of things.

    First thing to come to mind when you explained the problems was your UPS. What kind of UPS is it exactly? Pure sine wave, modified sine wave or square sine wave? Actually square will not even work. Maybe on some power tools.

    Modified (simulated) sine wave inverters in UPSes are cheaper than pure sine wave ones. Usually most electrical appliances will work. The more sensitive the electrical equipment, the more demanding it is for the power quality. Problem with modified sine wave inverters are that they can cause power supplies to run hotter than normal and causing early retirement for them.

    Pure sine wave inverters are recommended in more expensive hardware as Mac Pros.

    As for your logic boards getting fried... I don't have enough savvy to know whether or not a bad UPS feed would affect the logic board.

    EDIT: If your UPS is line interactive, then it shouldn't matter if it's pure or modified sine wave. Line interactive UPSes just filter and boost or buck when needed. Only when they are on battery backup the sine waves come to play...
    EDIT2: Are your two UPSes working together in some way? Are they on separate feeds? Piggybacking UPSes is a nono as well.
     
  3. telopereira, Jun 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011

    telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #3
    I do not think should be the UPS, because I have a Mac Pro that had the same problem last year (July), but as it was under warranty, Apple replaced the logic board and power supply , and it has been working well until now. Besides, I have a red LED near Bluetooth .

    EDIT:

    and all my UPS are APC , begining with 1.5 KVA to 3.75 KVA . And I have others equipment's working fine at the same places .
     
  4. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    May 6, 2008
    #4
    It could have to do with the UPS though, so don't discount this as a source of your problem.

    Now to explain further...

    The PSU in the MP is an Active Power Factor Control design (APFC). When this type of PSU is attached to a stepped wave inverter based UPS (part of the UPS that converts DC to AC), it can cause damage to the PSU itself.

    What you need to understand, is that this damage takes place over time (multiple instances the UPS kicks over to battery on such a unit), not all at once, as you would see with surge damage.

    Now if you have poor power in your area, which your post indicates (i.e. brown-outs = low voltage present on the wall) or even rolling black-outs (no power at all on the wall), then this sort of damage has happened if you're UPS's do not use a Pure Sine Wave Inverter.

    BTW, brown-outs are more common than most people realize (i.e. lights may dim unexpectedly, and nothing else with a high current draw has kicked on, such as an Air Conditioning unit on the same AC circuit as the light).

    So it would be a good idea to investigate your UPS's further (research the model number of each unit and see what type of inverter it uses; it should be in the specifications section on either the manufacturer's website or the manual that came with it).
     
  5. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #5
    Mac Pro early 2008 power off suddenly alone and gives a long beep on startup

    Ok, I have to consider that now I have problems with PSU, though I have tested all PSU in my laboratory (different location from where the equipment's normally work), with news logic boards and PSU are working fine with the news logic boards. So , I don't rule out that the PSU are in trouble, but I insist that the problem has been occuring in the logic board. I've been an Apple Specialist, since 1986, but I'm not an electronics technician to know certain details of these UPS and PSU , but I want to understand what is happening, because there are many similar equipment's (same model) with the same defect, and others (different models) newer or older, that do not have these problems.
     
  6. spidey3 macrumors regular

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    #6
    Please respond with the model number of the UPS units you are using. Different APC models have very different electrical characteristics, even if they have same KVA rating.

    Also, what is the temperature / humidity in the location where the problem machines are located? I am wondering if this might be some kind of thermal issue...

    Spidey!!!
     
  7. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #7
    The most of UPS that I use , are the model below :
    Nobreak APC 1500 va ou 1.5 KVA Back-UPS RS - 120V
    BR1500 Back-UPS RS 1500VA Â- 120V
    Back-UPS RS 1500VA
    P/N : BR1500
    Maybe the problem was caused by issues electrics, but now I have problems with logic boards . In all equipment's that I have problems, I have a red led near the bluetooth and in these equipment's, sometimes I can work for hours and/or sometimes it turns off immediately. It's not only an issue electrical .
     
  8. spidey3, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011

    spidey3 macrumors regular

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    #8
    The UPS units you list are all line-interactive stepped-sine-wave units -- and not recommended with the Mac Pro, whose PSU is rather sensitive. It's not a big deal if power disruptions are rare and short - but if they are longer, then over time the stepped sine wave will damage the PSU - which itself can then fail in a way that stray voltage makes its way to the logic board, causing failure there as well...

    Full sine wave UPS units [like APC Smart-UPS line] are recommended for Mac Pro -- but I note that these are much more expensive than the stepped units.

    Spidey!!!

    You didn't answer my question about heat / humidity. This time waiting thing makes me wonder if this is a thermal issue.

    Also, is it a single long beep? If so, that usually indicates a POST failure, possibly a RAM problem. What kind of memory do you have in these machines? Have you checked that the DIMM's and risers are seated correctly?

    Can you open a terminal and run system_profiler SPDiagnosticsDataType and send the output?

    Spidey!!!
     
  9. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #9
    In all places where they are installed, air conditioning is used between 17 and 21 degrees Celsius (here is warm over the year) and the humidity is low. I got the long beep, only on equipment that are worse, that I can not turn on , I have a long beep as if it were to upgrade the firmware . As I have a lot of similars equipment's , I can test : memories , riser boards , processors , power supplies , graphics adapters , fans .
     
  10. spidey3 macrumors regular

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    #10
    OK, so thermal conditions are unlikely as a cause.

    I'm still betting on PSU / logic board damage.
     
  11. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #11
    about system_profiler

    when I can turn on , I run system_profiler SPDiagnosticsDataType and have the only the following results :
    Power on Self-test :
    Last Run : date ...
    Result : passed
    In some equipments , I can run for 24 hours the ASD disk with no problems , but if I turn off and boot from HDD , sometimes if I have lucky I'll be able to work for hours , but sometimes on power on I have the red led near the bluetooth and nothing works .
    PS: all equipments are used to video editing , so they are very requireds
     
  12. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #12
    Clone the boot disk, and retest the existing HDD with the cloned unit for an extended period of time, and see if the problem persists or disappears.
     
  13. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #13
    As I told before , I have a lot of similars equipment's , that I can test : memories , riser boards , processors , power supplies , graphics adapters , fans , and I have 4 cloned disks (Leopard , Snow Leopard , for Video , for Audio) so , I've tested all , and all disks from the bad equipments were formated and the system and applications installed so ... , I've tried inumerous possibilities .
     
  14. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #14
    Just wanted to see if you've ruled out the boot disk as a potential problem.

    I still suspect power, but there are other things that can cause that beep, such as a damaged PSU.

    As mentioned, both of the UPS's you've listed are the wrong type to be used with an APFC based PSU. Now given it seems the power quality where you live isn't that great, damage is quite possible (i.e. issues with the PSU occur when it's cold <bad caps can cause this> or warm <insufficient cooling or damaged regs for example>).
     
  15. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #15
    I'm believing that the problem is electrical, and the solution is to replace the logic boards and / or power supply and see all my UPS. But I am angry at the treatment that Apple gives to it, since numerous people have had the same problem all over the world and all are having to pay dearly for a "design error" from Apple , which after a year and a half or two years begin to present problems arising out of "sensitivity" of the power supply.I always trusted the quality of Apple , because I had Power Mac 9600 that worked for 10 years and until now I have G5 , that have been working for more than six years without problems , but with this generation of Mac Pro (early 2008) ,I'm disappointed .
     
  16. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #16
    I understand your frustration.

    Unfortunately, in this case, I don't think its a design flaw, but the result of the wrong type of UPS and poor power from the electrical grid that supplies your system (causality = brown-outs on a stepped inverter damaged your APFC based PSU). :(
     
  17. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #17
    Mac Pro 2008 - not starting !

    Hi Nanofrag ! I saw that in 2009 you had the same problem , with your Mac Pro 2008 . What did you do ? Have only changed the logic board ?
     
  18. DanielCoffey, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011

    DanielCoffey macrumors 65816

    DanielCoffey

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    #18
    Before you spend any money on replacement Mac Pro components, it might be a good idea to replace the Back-UPS UPS boxes with the Smart-UPS models so that you can prevent further damage to all your expensive equipment.
     
  19. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #19
    red led

    A lot of people had the same problem and the Apple Computer didn't do anything for us ......a recall or something like this ... Today I heard from a friend, that he has three Mac Pro early 2008 at technical assistance, with the same problem , to replace the logic board logical boards and/or power supply. By chance, anyone know what it means to the red light near the bluetooth? Because all these equipments with problems , had this detail, and until now , no one knew explain me what is this , neither the manual , nor the technical assistance , nor the genius.
     
  20. spidey3 macrumors regular

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    #20
  21. DanielCoffey macrumors 65816

    DanielCoffey

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    #21
    I don't want to make assumptions, but it feels like you are skirting around the suggestions that have been made about your UPS model being the root cause of your problems.
     
  22. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #22
    Actually, you've misunderstood that thread, as it's another member's machine that's having the problem (different causality though, as that was a bad USB burning out that caused the damage).

    At any rate, if you go back to that thread and read more carefully, you'll see that the OP in that thread has access to similar machines and is going to test out the CPU tray (aka daughterboard) in one of those other systems to see if it's good (testing on a known good backplane board = one with the PCIe slots, PSU, disks, ...).

    A lot of work, but it's necessary to help determine exactly which board/s are bad (seems the disks are confirmed as good at least, so that person at least still has their data). Small comfort though, as MP replacement parts tend to be expensive.

    In your case, please read the rest of this post (particularly the second part in response to DanielCoffey), as it's extremely relevant to you. :)

    Absolutely. :)

    Even if the OP gets the systems repaired and running again, if the UPS's used now are not swapped out for the right type, the damage that was done to the current equipment will be repeated (same problem exists; wrong inverter type connected to an APFC based PSU). Just a matter of when it will happen, not if.

    This would be the case even with new computers (Apple or otherwise), as APFC based PSU's are being used in a lot more systems (much more efficient, which allows it to meet energy consumption regulations).

    I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt ATM, and presuming the focus is on the systems themselves, as that's the more immediate problem (must get them repaired or replaced).
     
  23. telopereira, Jul 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2011

    telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #23
    After all , I really don't think that my problem is or was electrical issue , so I'm trying to understand what is happening with a lot of Mac Pro early 2008 , that suddenly have been power off alone , and has the led red near bluetooth . Someone told me that this is a serial problem , that Apple Computer didn't do a recall and the problem is with the chipset . I've changed one to make a test and since saturday it has been working fine - no power off and no red led near bluetooth . I hope that is the final solution . After some more tests , if everything is ok , I'll send this report to Apple Computer .
     
  24. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #24
    The led isn't located between risers boards , it is near the front fan and bluetooth , according the picture attached , and you can see an old discussion at Apple Suport Comunities :
    https://discussions.apple.com/message/13228038?messageID=13228038
     

    Attached Files:

  25. telopereira thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #25
    [Mac Pro] - Re: Mac Pro early 2008 power off suddenly alone and gives a long beep on

    After last two years , after a long time expended with this forum and close with Apple , also expending time and a lot of money , after heard a lot of wrong sugestions, the reality is : nobody here , solved this problem without replacing de logic board and/or power supply . I decided to replace all my logic boards for MacPro early 2008 and backplane boards for Mac Pro early 2009 and mid 2010 (yes , they are with problems too) . Well , all of you expected is , that all my problems has been solved , yes they were for a time , but not enough as the old macintosh that you was running for 8 to 10 years with no problem . I have around 15 MacPro early 2008 that all have been replaced the logic board almost one time and 10 from early 2009 in the same way , more 12 from mid 2010 in the same way . With a lot of problems and still working with Apple , I discovered that for the MacPro early 2008 the problem is a voltage regulator in logic board and for 2009 and 2010 is a chipset that needs reballing , but I can't get find , after discorery and localited the problems I tried , a company or a person that knew how to fix this problems , after trying a lot of companies in Brazil , I tried in USA , but no success too . Again , the reality is : Apple is manufacturing bad products and you have to protect your investiments with Apple Care and all times that you have problems , you will have to wait for a week or more , for a solution at Apple Assistence
     

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