Mac Pro Enthusiasts Raise Concerns Over Upgrade Limitations of Apple Silicon

[foo2]

It's a hack. Nobody is going to do it for serious work.

Fully agree. But when someone says something can’t be done, and it can, well…

 

[falainber]

Fully agree. But when someone says something can’t be done, and it can, well…

I am not sure we can say that it can be done yet. Asahi Linux is still in Alpha. They can't even do the speakers yet which just shows that hacking can get you only that far. Without Apple support nothing is going to work on AS Macs but MacOS.

 

[foo2]

I am not sure we can say that it can be done yet. Asahi Linux is still in Alpha. They can't even do the speakers yet which just shows that hacking can get you only that far. Without Apple support nothing is going to work on AS Macs but MacOS.

One can easily do it. Whether it meets all your requirements, that’s another matter. But another person said it couldn’t be done, and both Asahi Linux and Windows (ARM) prove the point wrong. Asahi Linux boots natively, and Windows (ARM) runs within MacOS using UTM (Free!) or Parallels.

 

[Alan Wynn]

But you're well aware that his perception on the Mac Pro isn't really just his perception.

I am responding to him, not people who have not posted opinions. You understand that right?

Also, you don't really address why Apple sells the Mac Pro for up to $ 54,000, but only buys it back $970 at most:

Did you know that I also did not address the latest products from Beyond Meat? I am arguing against Apple producing any x86_64 systems, why would I address that issue at all? How is it relevant to this discussion?

Not only that, but several benchmarks show that Mac Pros are outdated in performance, losing to the Mx Macs. The only place they still win is in memory capacity, but like we said, you're probably better off with x86 at this point.

How does this support your position? What even is the position you are arguing?

 

[Joe Dohn]

I am not sure we can say that it can be done yet. Asahi Linux is still in Alpha. They can't even do the speakers yet [...]

You are wrong / out-of-date again. According to the Asahi Linux blog: https://asahilinux.org/2022/11/november-2022-report/

What about the speakers, I hear you ask? We hear you! For months now we’ve had working speaker drivers, but we haven’t enabled them for good reason: because we had the very strong suspicion that you could destroy your speakers without more complex volume limits and safety systems. As it turns out… those suspicions were correct! I decided to take one for the team and run some tests on my MacBook Air M2, and even with some sensible volume limits I quickly managed to blow up my tweeters. Oops! Good thing we haven’t enabled the speakers yet!

So, as of November 2022, they already had functional drivers, but without safety checks to handle audio that could potentially harm the speakers – which is why they had been disabled by default.

Do notice that even though the INTERNAL SPEAKERS were disabled by default due to safety reasons, a user reported he could get sound working by enabling Bluetooth speakers:

Of course, that report is from November 2022, so a lot could have changed from there. For example, there has been outstanding progress on the video drivers in that timeframe. They are also rock solid, as they have been developed in Rust. You can even game on Asahi Linux now.

 

[Joe Dohn]

I am arguing against Apple producing any x86_64 systems, why would I address that issue at all? How is it relevant to this discussion?

When he said that Apple made a mistake by dropping Intel (implying that the mac Pro is losing on performance and is currently a poor choice), you suggested that he is not qualified to criticize the Mac Pro because he is not a Mac Pro user. My point is that he DOESN'T need to be a Mac Pro user to argue that, because it's common knowledge that the Mac Pro is a poor product to buy at this point – just look at how poorly Apple themselves rate a used Mac Pro.

 

[Joe Dohn]

It's a hack. Nobody is going to do it for serious work.

I disagree. Define "serious".

A huge corporation might not use Asahi Linux on their production line because it has no good support. However, that doesn't stop smaller companies to find something important and useful to do with it. It's the user who decides whether the software meets their needs, ultimately.

 

[NT1440]

I disagree. Define "serious".

A huge corporation might not use Asahi Linux on their production line because it has no good support. However, that doesn't stop smaller companies to find something important and useful to do with it. It's the user who decides whether the software meets their needs, ultimately.

That’s a company that’s destined to have some massive technical debt in the near future. Hope they budgeted for halting operations to completely rebuild!

You’d be laughed out of the bank for your loan if you got into the technical details of your business operations…

 

[falainber]

You are wrong / out-of-date again. According to the Asahi Linux blog: https://asahilinux.org/2022/11/november-2022-report/



So, as of November 2022, they already had functional drivers, but without safety checks to handle audio that could potentially harm the speakers – which is why they had been disabled by default.

Do notice that even though the INTERNAL SPEAKERS were disabled by default due to safety reasons, a user reported he could get sound working by enabling Bluetooth speakers:

Of course, that report is from November 2022, so a lot could have changed from there. For example, there has been outstanding progress on the video drivers in that timeframe. They are also rock solid, as they have been developed in Rust. You can even game on Asahi Linux now.

So, it took them two years to learn how to control the speaker. Ten more years and they will get to Beta (that is unless Apple changes something in their processors which they will certainly do). It's all very interesting but this is never going to get used by anyone but a bunch of desperados/hobbyists.

 

[Alan Wynn]

One can easily do it. Whether it meets all your requirements, that’s another matter. But another person said it couldn’t be done, and both Asahi Linux and Windows (ARM) prove the point wrong. Asahi Linux boots natively, and Windows (ARM) runs within MacOS using UTM (Free!) or Parallels.

No one said it could not be done. The discussion of it came from two mistaken tangents. First, a discussion that among the reasons that Apple dropped support for nVidia, was nVidia’s refusal to provide driver source (to which someone replied that they could reverse engineer it using Asahi as an example - as if shipping a product based on reverse engineered drivers was rational) and Second someone not understanding that the statement that: “moving forward the only way to run macOS will be on Apple Silicon and its Unified Memory Architecture” was not a statement that no other operating system would run on Apple Silicon.

However, the point is still that no one is going to buy hardware for commercial use to run unsupported software.

It is just not a reasonable option.

 

[foo2]

No one said it could not be done.

Post 651 said Macs couldn't run Windows natively. They can; ARM Windows. It's virtualized, not emulated. It's fully native.

The discussion of it came from two mistaken tangents. First, a discussion that among the reasons that Apple dropped support for nVidia, was nVidia’s refusal to provide driver source (to which someone replied that they could reverse engineer it using Asahi as an example - as if shipping a product based on reverse engineered drivers was rational) and Second someone not understanding that the statement that: “moving forward the only way to run macOS will be on Apple Silicon and its Unified Memory Architecture” was not a statement that no other operating system would run on Apple Silicon.

However, the point is still that no one is going to buy hardware for commercial use to run unsupported software.

It is just not a reasonable option.

I think your comments on viability without driver source are spot on for a commercial vendor like Apple.

 

[Alan Wynn]

When he said that Apple made a mistake by dropping Intel (implying that the mac Pro is losing on performance and is currently a poor choice),

No, that was not the implication. The implication was that Apple Silicon will never be faster or better than x86_64 and so Apple should continue to support it, especially for applications where people want to upgrade memory like on a Mac Pro.

you suggested that he is not qualified to criticize the Mac Pro because he is not a Mac Pro user. My point is that he DOESN'T need to be a Mac Pro user to argue that, because it's common knowledge that the Mac Pro is a poor product to buy at this point – just look at how poorly Apple themselves rate a used Mac Pro.

You seem not to be following this discussion very well. As someone who lives with a 2019 Mac Pro user and someone who has consulted for companies that have purchased hundreds of them, I can say that none of them cared about upgradeability, and so his argument that people who purchased Mac Pro systems did so because they valued that, was not based on experience or knowledge and was not very insightful.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Post 651 said Macs couldn't run Windows natively. They can; ARM Windows. It's virtualized, not emulated. It's fully native.

You are correct that it was said. If you look at that post, it is in response to the post that mistakes what I said about macOS for a statement about Apple Silicon running other operating systems.

I think your comments on viability without driver source are spot on for a commercial vendor like Apple.

Thanks.

 

[Joe Dohn]

You seem not to be following this discussion very well. As someone who lives with a 2019 Mac Pro user and someone who has consulted for companies that have purchased hundreds of them, I can say that none of them cared about upgradeability, and so his argument that people who purchased Mac Pro systems did so because they valued that, was not based on experience or knowledge and was not very insightful.

I see a trend here not just to disqualify the people who disagree with you, but to disqualify any solution that is non-Apple.

So, it took them two years to learn how to control the speaker. Ten more years and they will get to Beta (that is unless Apple changes something in their processors which they will certainly do). It's all very interesting but this is never going to get used by anyone but a bunch of desperados/hobbyists.

Why would someone who wants to use native Linux with their Apple silicon hardware be a "desperado"? "Desperado" for what? This is not a poor person begging for money or free hardware. If they have an Apple Silicon PC, they surely can afford it and it's to their prerogative install whatever piece of software they want – even native Linux, if it's available.

(to which someone replied that they could reverse engineer it using Asahi as an example - as if shipping a product based on reverse engineered drivers was rational)

I have my share of criticism towards Linux and open source, but you're generalizing saying that reverse engineering drivers is not rational. And there are several applications where reverse engineered drivers can indeed be not only be used in professional workflows, but better than the official alternatives. For example, DisplayCAL's calibration software is better than the official solutions of many colorimeter manufacturers.

 

[Nugget]

And there are several applications where reverse engineered drivers can indeed be not only be used in professional workflows, but better than the official alternatives. For example, DisplayCAL's calibration software is better than the official solutions of many colorimeter manufacturers.

As has been mentioned previously, reverse engineering GPL'd drivers for use in non-GPL'd code is a violation of the license and would not be a legal strategy for any business to take. Not to mention the fact that it's a totally insane suggestion on its face.

 

[CosmoCopus]

When he said that Apple made a mistake by dropping Intel (implying that the mac Pro is losing on performance and is currently a poor choice), you suggested that he is not qualified to criticize the Mac Pro because he is not a Mac Pro user. My point is that he DOESN'T need to be a Mac Pro user to argue that, because it's common knowledge that the Mac Pro is a poor product to buy at this point – just look at how poorly Apple themselves rate a used Mac Pro.

Actuality what I was saying is all the components in the current Intel Mac Pro are upgradable as you know and if the new one is not (going backwards) then Apple is making a mistake by totally dropping Intel. Not sure why you would have to own the current Mac Pro, upgrade it, when, and how …and use it professionally to figure that out as he stated but hey whatever. It’s just an overpriced fancy box with upgradable components.

 

[Nugget]

if the new one is not (going backwards) then Apple is making a mistake by totally dropping Intel.

It's only a mistake if Mac Pro customers generally care about upgradeability. In my experience, they don't. Perhaps your experience is different. The vast majority of computer systems I've requisitioned, approved, purchased or used professionally have been bought, depreciated over 5 years, and discarded. Often the maintenance agreement made upgrades infeasible, and more generally by the time a machine would be a candidate for an upgrade, it was fully depreciated and replaced.

Not sure why you would have to own the current Mac Pro, upgrade it, when, and how …and use it professionally

In order to understand how your experience may differ from mine. In your experience, do Mac Pro customers care about upgradability?

 

[DavidSchaub]

... why Apple sells the Mac Pro for up to $ 54,000, but only buys it back $970 at most:

That one's easy. Nobody should by buying Mac Pros for $54,000 if they care about how much Apple buys it back for.

If pros need it, they need it and will buy it. As for people who care about the $970 buy back, Apple doesn't care if they buy Mac Pros or not.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I don't think it fails at all.
I would take the more awkward UI with the freedom to install any software I want over only a handful of apps for content creation, reading books and browsing the Internet.

What's the point of such a "marvelous" touch experience if most of the time my experience is no better than a Chromebook?

Sure, the iPad is wonderful for drawing, audio creation (IF you are a musician) or casual video recording (IF you work with visual content creation, and only in limited workflows).

But take away those creative workflows, and there's not much else you can do.
Sure, the iPad does have Microsoft Office or the Apple Suite, but if you need the HEAVY versions of MS Office, they feel like a toy.

I promise you drawing with a Microsoft Surface is not so bad. Sure, the pen is not as good as the Apple Pencil, but you're not restricted to the stock pen to begin with. You can run any device compatible with Windows Ink – even a Cintiq, if you somehow feel like it.

So you can take away the OS - remember Microsoft did that with Surface NT or whatever that junk was. Take away so-called universal windows app ecosystem cause in reality it is anything but (try running 3270 emulators made prior to Windows 7/ME in win10 on Surface it just doesn’t work well at all.

Then try typing a proper essay on that joke if a keyboard without wasting so much of your time repeatedly hitting the backspace key to make corrections.

Try navigating using the stylus or drawing or video editing - you’ll geTHE same limited workflows you claim on iPad because guess what no Surface has a dedicated video card (tablets not hybrid design models).

It’s a 2-way street. Have you even used a surface at length or more than 3mths as a primary and only windows computer no other computer nor tablet at all? I have it’s horrendous. Sad since Microsoft has been working with vendors for decades before the iPad debuted and even traders disliked the early winNT versions.

 

[vladi]

Actuality what I was saying is all the components in the current Intel Mac Pro are upgradable as you know and if the new one is not (going backwards) then Apple is making a mistake by totally dropping Intel. Not sure why you would have to own the current Mac Pro, upgrade it, when, and how …and use it professionally to figure that out as he stated but hey whatever. It’s just an overpriced fancy box with upgradable components.

At this point no one knows if they dropped the Intel completely or not. They are still selling it. And as they continue to do so they most likely have an input where Intel is going and how it's doing. Intel would love to have Apple on their side and I'm sure Intel drops them prototypes for evaluation. Remember that macOS will still have Intel support for a very long time. Things can change and I wouldn't be surprised if Apple decides to keep x86 workstation in their lineup. We will see by 2025 what's going on really.

 

[krell100]

I can’t see any way that Apple will not have their own silicon in the next MP. They’ve even said there is only one mac left to transition, the Mac Pro.

 

[StuAff]

If an Intel refresh was in the plan, the plan changed.

 

[Joe Dohn]

So you can take away the OS - remember Microsoft did that with Surface NT or whatever that junk was. Take away so-called universal windows app ecosystem cause in reality it is anything but (try running 3270 emulators made prior to Windows 7/ME in win10 on Surface it just doesn’t work well at all.

Then try typing a proper essay on that joke if a keyboard without wasting so much of your time repeatedly hitting the backspace key to make corrections.

Try navigating using the stylus or drawing or video editing - you’ll geTHE same limited workflows you claim on iPad because guess what no Surface has a dedicated video card (tablets not hybrid design models).

It’s a 2-way street. Have you even used a surface at length or more than 3mths as a primary and only windows computer no other computer nor tablet at all? I have it’s horrendous. Sad since Microsoft has been working with vendors for decades before the iPad debuted and even traders disliked the early winNT versions.

The Surface was indeed painful to use in the first iterations.
However, Microsoft has been patiently improving on the specs, and now it is perfectly usable for drawing and light gaming. With the added bonus that you have many more stylus options, because the Surface will take whatever stylus compatible with Windows Ink.

This guy rates the drawing experience with the Slim Pen as excellent:

With the Intel version (Surface 9), you can even connect an eGPU to it.

So, you can pretend the competition is not catching up, but they are. Ignoring them won't make them disappear.

 

[Joe Dohn]

At this point no one knows if they dropped the Intel completely or not. They are still selling it. And as they continue to do so they most likely have an input where Intel is going and how it's doing. Intel would love to have Apple on their side and I'm sure Intel drops them prototypes for evaluation. Remember that macOS will still have Intel support for a very long time. Things can change and I wouldn't be surprised if Apple decides to keep x86 workstation in their lineup. We will see by 2025 what's going on really.

Someone here said something that makes a lot of sense: if Apple decides to refresh the Mac Pro with an Intel processor, they are sending a message that Apple Silicon is not powerful enough for the heaviest tasks. It might be completely incorrect, but that's what people will read. So, in this sense, Apple is between a rock and a hard place.

Keeping the Mac Pro in a limbo is not good either, because its value is depreciating as we speak. It already loses to Apple's base Mx processors as-is in most scenarios. Imagine two years from now.

 

[DeepIn2U]

The Surface was indeed painful to use in the first iterations.
However, Microsoft has been patiently improving on the specs, and now it is perfectly usable for drawing and light gaming. With the added bonus that you have many more stylus options, because the Surface will take whatever stylus compatible with Windows Ink.

This guy rates the drawing experience with the Slim Pen as excellent:

With the Intel version (Surface 9), you can even connect an eGPU to it.

So, you can pretend the competition is not catching up, but they are. Ignoring them won't make them disappear.

You watched the video right?

See at 2:53 “so now we’re getting into the machine …”

Uses such Slim Pen and clearly launches an Adobe app that never launches! The video is quickly skipped to see another screen.

How on earth did you miss this?!
I see this daily as I do support these machines at work.