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Second, Mac Pros don't have near as many problems as a Dell workstation might have.
You've asked about a specific market though.

What you have to understand, is both brands have required repairs for their workstation products (and will continue to be the case). As for exact statistics in a specific segment/product, you'll have a hard time finding them, if they're available at all, as what I see are aggregate for all the products a vendor sells. For a business, they need a system running, so things like NBD or better support really do matter. Having to carry a MP in, and wait days to get it fixed isn't seen as an attractive solution if there's a problem.

And they aren't only business machines. I know plenty of people who have them to do things that have nothing to do with running a business or using it for business related matters.
This doesn't surprise me, but they're enterprise grade, which means more than just marketing. They're designed to run in a high availablity environment (24/7/365 operation), so they're equiped with better parts and more extensive validation testing (reliability as well as raw performance).

One big difference is you can call a Dell sales rep and get a 12 core workstation a lot cheaper than they are listed online for. Not as easy with Apple, even more so these days and likely not for a first time customer just needing a single system. Also those Dell systems will come down in price online.
Exactly. A telephone call works wonders on the selling price with Dell and HP. ;)

As a reminder, to get to 3yrs with the MP, you have to add in the Extended Apple Care, and it's not as good as the warranty offered by Dell (or other vendors such as HP). Some may consider this a moot/unimportant point, but it makes for a more accurate comparision IMO, as exact parity is impossible.

For a business however, this "little" issue is highly important. Not as much to independents though, as they're in a different situation (trade off lower costs for the necessary time input if there is a problem, such as 3rd party upgrades). A business will buy the entire system (includes all desired upgrades) directly from the vendor to have a single point of contact if there's a problem (the entire system is covered under a single warranty).

Dell Support is synonymous for NO Support. Apple Support is rated #1 year after year in consumer and business markets. I've always spend more time dealing with Dell than Apple.
The statistics are a combination of a vendors entire product lines. So Dell's numbers are noticably affected by the budget systems they sell. Worse yet, the consumer support is an area they cut corners on to save costs (why you get someone from India or Pakistan on the phone after being on hold for a couple of hours during peak call times). It supremely sucks bollocks, but that's part of how they keep the costs down (translates to more $$$ in Dell's coffers, not nearly as much in terms of lower MSRP to the system purchaser).

The Enterprise support side is entirely different however. You won't wait on the phone forever, and the person usually speaks English as their native language. They're also much better trained, as they're expected to deal with unusual situations that're critical to the system owner/user (i.e. know the intimate details of the hardware, and can deal with all of the options, particularly RAID subsystems).

As per Apple, the phone support is quick, but in a specific situation (workstation), there's a chance they won't know what you're talking about (i.e. they don't know much if anything about the RAID Pro card). And the repairs take more time. This may or maynot be of a concern to you, but it is to others (critical actually, especially if that system is earning money). It all comes down to what's important to the user.

Lastly, Dell gives you those options for technicians to come and repair your machine because the machine itself is extremely poor quality. Dell was recently sued for using cheap components that caused the entire machine to stop working. Apple has never been sued for using cheap components that stopped the machine from working. Macs are built with quality as their #1 priority. It's not just the business machines (Mac Pro, Xserver, etc.) that have quality, it's every machine from the Mini to the Mac Pro and everything in between.
Keep in mind vendors like Dell, Apple, HP,... are using ODM suppliers in most, if not all their products (the ODM does the design and manufacturing work), so design and component selection is is left up to the ODM. As a result, product quality has suffered across the board for electronics produced this way (vendor gives up design and production QC for lower costs, as these vendors have a tendency to cut corners anywhere they can). Cheap parts are one of the primary ways that costs are cut to increase the ODM's profit margins, not the vendors. Apple's even suffered from this.

An OEM situation is different, as the vendor supplies the design (PCB artwork and components to be used - BOM = Bill Of Materials). They retain some control (mostly on the design side), but it costs more. There have been cases where component substitutions have occured here as well (parts used that weren't on the BOM or approved by the vendor, such as what's supposed to happen in cases of a supply shortage). But it's hard to sue over it, given the vendor tends to be based in one country, and the OEM in another.

The ideal case, is when a vendor does it all (design and manufacture all their own gear). This allows them to maintain control through every stage that ends in a shipping product. It's also expensive as hell, and only happens in instances where it's a niche product and/or it's performance and reliability are critical. High-end consumer products such as some audio products, medical electronics such as a pace maker, MRI scanner,... , or military equipment are such examples.

And even some of these are going to OEM, though there are some differences here, such as all the suppliers used are in the same country or one that the supplier can be held accountable if there's a problem (multi-country military hardware for example, such as the F-35 - there's parts made all over the place).
 
I was wondering if anyone has taken into account the used value that Macs are able to command. My 2008 Octo can still be sold for a relatively small loss even though I purchased it 2 years ago. That should be considered as many people do upgrade, especially after the first 3 years and that sale covers a portion of the new purchase.

Granted I haven't been in the windows workstation game for about 6 years now (since my switch to Mac). Anyone have any idea on the depreciation that applies to Dells? In my experience it seems most used PC's have the bottom fall out of their equity, although I could be wrong.

Thoughts?
 
I was wondering if anyone has taken into account the used value that Macs are able to command. My 2008 Octo can still be sold for a relatively small loss even though I purchased it 2 years ago. That should be considered as many people do upgrade, especially after the first 3 years and that sale covers a portion of the new purchase.

Granted I haven't been in the windows workstation game for about 6 years now (since my switch to Mac). Anyone have any idea on the depreciation that applies to Dells? In my experience it seems most used PC's have the bottom fall out of their equity, although I could be wrong.

Thoughts?
five years later maybe 1/10? I have a Dell Precision 370 we got for ~$2000 in 05 and refurbished ones sell for under $200
 
Well considering you just agreed that Macs don't break down as often, do I still need to back it up? Everyone I know that has come from a PC to a Mac has never had near as many problems, and people on here have talked about a Mac Pro being way more reliable than a dell workstation, do you ask them to back up their personal experiences?

I don't see why everyone has to get so dang defensive so quick. I started this thread to state a fact about the base MP with 12-core 2.66 and a base dell workstation with 12-core 2.66.

Its like all you people have to be the smartest nerd around and thats why you jump on everyone all the time and have to disagree in some way, shape, or form. This happens all the time on these forums, what is wrong with you people?

And of course now someone will quote that and say something against it, it happens every time.

I'm not taking anyone's side here, OP. I'm a Mac guy through and through, I do have a gaming PC, but that doesn't matter here. At the University of Michigan we bought 5 new Mac Pro's (2009) models for some researchers. We had 4 die on us (motherboards) within the first year. Isolated incident? I think so, maybe we got a bad batch, who knows. However, if you go back and look at the reliability ratings for say the PowerMac G5 towers they were terrible.

G5/1.6 single (June 2003), D- (24%, logicboard, hard drive)
G5/1.8 single (June 2003), D+ (19%, logicboard, video card)
G5/2.0 dual (June 2003), F (32%, video card, logicboard)
G5/1.8 dual (Nov. 2003), F (27%, logicboard, optical drive)
G5/1.8 dual (June 2004), D+ (19%, logicboard, optical drive)
G5/2.0 dual (June 2004), C- (17%, logicboard, hard or optical drive)
G5/2.5 dual (June 2004), F (26%, logicboard, hard drive)
G5/1.8 single (Oct. 2004), D+ (19%, hard drive, logicboard)
G5/2.3 dual (April 2005), B- (11%, logicboard, power supply)
G5/2.7 dual (April 2005), D (22%, logicboard, power supply)
G5/2.0 dual-core (Oct. 2005), C- (18%, power supply, logicboard)
G5/2.3 dual-core (Oct. 2005), C- (18%, power supply, logicboard or optical drive)
G5/2.5 quad-core (Oct. 2005), C- (17%, logicboard, power supply)

(from http://lowendmac.com/ppc/power-macintosh-g5.html)

I'm not sure about the Mac Pro's. I'm just saying they don't have a good track record with their Pro machines.

Edit: When we tried to get the Mac Pro's fixed, we had to take them to the Genius Bar...imagine 4 hopping mad Ph.D researchers who have to wait 2 weeks to get their computers back. It wasn't pretty.
 
A 48-core motherboard costs less than $1000.

If you bypass the 12-core CPUs and limit yourself to 4x 8-core, you can get each CPU for less than $300.
 
A 48-core motherboard costs less than $1000.

If you bypass the 12-core CPUs and limit yourself to 4x 8-core, you can get each CPU for less than $300.

I'm confused, 4x8 cores≠48
AMD doesn't count, much weaker cores and nothing uses that many cores
 
Edit: When we tried to get the Mac Pro's fixed, we had to take them to the Genius Bar...imagine 4 hopping mad Ph.D researchers who have to wait 2 weeks to get their computers back. It wasn't pretty.

I bet it was karma..
 
First off, are you on your period?

Real mature.

Second, Mac Pros don't have near as many problems as a Dell workstation might have. They are much more reliable.

They use much of the same parts and fail in similar numbers. When Apple went intel, they opened themselves up to direct comparison on parts, and when those are so close, one compares service.

Apple computers fail just as much when pushed.

And considering that you have had to have someone else come fix it for you, that doesn't make me want to get one.

You misread. If your MacPro breaks in a way you cannot fix yourself, you must lug that beast to an Apple store or authorized repair shop. That's why they put handles on it because you get to move it yourself! ;)

If your Dell breaks, someone shows up to fix it for you at no cost - part of the warranty and service.

When you absolutely punish a computer - as some of the posters in here do for a living - your chance of failure on any platform goes WAY up. Having a company back up their product with in office service is very valuable.

Sure, there are more options for GPUs, but it has always been that way and always will be.

And that is why all the major 3d packages have better viewport performance Windows.

InfoSecmgr said:
Edit: When we tried to get the Mac Pro's fixed, we had to take them to the Genius Bar...imagine 4 hopping mad Ph.D researchers who have to wait 2 weeks to get their computers back. It wasn't pretty.

I lugged mine into the Apple store and it was a bear. God, I hated my G5.

We had all of our office G5's fail at least once during warranty, and they all broke within a month or two out of warranty. I went through two machines, and my coworker went through three on our personal computers. The G5s were horrendous quality machines. But we still have working G3s and G4s we keep around for nostalgia. Go figure. ;)

My 8 core 2.8 mac pro in my office is humming along nicely, but my coworkers are upgrading to 980x i7 PC towers. I'm jealous. Those new machines will perform better than my 8 core non-hyper threaded workstation, and continue to whoop mine in single threaded tasks.
 
Real mature.



They use much of the same parts and fail in similar numbers. When Apple went intel, they opened themselves up to direct comparison on parts, and when those are so close, one compares service.

Apple computers fail just as much when pushed.



You misread. If your MacPro breaks in a way you cannot fix yourself, you must lug that beast to an Apple store or authorized repair shop. That's why they put handles on it because you get to move it yourself! ;)

If your Dell breaks, someone shows up to fix it for you at no cost - part of the warranty and service.

When you absolutely punish a computer - as some of the posters in here do for a living - your chance of failure on any platform goes WAY up. Having a company back up their product with in office service is very valuable.



And that is why all the major 3d packages have better viewport performance Windows.



I lugged mine into the Apple store and it was a bear. God, I hated my G5.

We had all of our office G5's fail at least once during warranty, and they all broke within a month or two out of warranty. I went through two machines, and my coworker went through three on our personal computers. The G5s were horrendous quality machines. But we still have working G3s and G4s we keep around for nostalgia. Go figure. ;)

My 8 core 2.8 mac pro in my office is humming along nicely, but my coworkers are upgrading to 980x i7 PC towers. I'm jealous. Those new machines will perform better than my 8 core non-hyper threaded workstation, and continue to whoop mine in single threaded tasks.
The obvious solution is to get a 12-core system @2.93GHz :apple: preferably with 8x8GB OWC Modules :eek: don't forget turning one 5.25" into a 4xSSD RAID 0 Beast (can we say 1GB/s?). Then exploit your ultimate machine :D
 
First off, are you on your period?
I know plenty of people who have them to do things that have nothing to do with running a business or using it for business related matters.

Nothing like starting a reply with an insult to make your point, eh?

You're right about plenty of fanboys having mac pros and doing nothing with them beyond fooling around with itunes and iphoto.
People who are serious about using computers, and who have to pay for their machines as opposed to having mom and dad pay for their toys, will take a much harder look at the Dell workstations and what they offer.
 
OP: I am with you, HP too

I am in the market for an MP as well (and sometimes it feels like I have been doing nothing else except check MacRumors, the Apple Store and eBay all day long, hoping somehow for the price to drop or a spectacularly cheap refurb/used).

I have a G5 as the only Mac workstation (apart from my MBP) and it really needs replacing (noise is driving me nuts anyways and no Intel apps, of course).

My projected MacPro config will be somewhere between 3.500 and 5.000 EUR.
As an alternative I looked at the HP Z800, as I run on HP hardware mostly (for servers and workstations), but that turns out at around 4.000 to 7.000 EUR for configs similar to the upcoming Mac Pro. Naturally, no OS X on that, but I thought, well maybe I'd go for HP + Linux on the desktop.

Don't know about Dell, they seem OK spec-wise, but I had bad brushes with their support, so I stay with HP for Lin/Win ; prices seem also similar to HP.

To be honest, I think all of those amounts are utterly insane. My last car cost only slightly more than the top-notch Z800.

I mean, I love hardware and all, I buy for keeps, I'm willing to pay for quality, yaddayadda, but 4-5k: dude, that's a ton for small fry freelancers like me.

So to wrap it up: The price sucks, no doubt. Is it worth it? Probably. Is it in the same range for comparable (PC) workstations: yes, even lower.
As for quality: I had no problem with Apple stuff so far *knock on wood*.

I'm not happy. But I prefer to get the thing that will at least run all three of my target OSes (Win,Lin,OSX).


regards
phish
 
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