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Well nano, just over a year ago prior to I signed this contract I thought 3~4Tb would be plenty lol.. and now look; I'm using more than I have and I'm struggling.

So looking at your recommended ARC-1680ix24 and it's enormous potential and expandability options for a few grand seems very viable. Out of curiosity, what sort of performance gains would I'd achieve with the optional 2GB/4GB cache?
Notable, and I recommend getting it. The 2GB sticks are going to be easier to find at a reasonable price, but the 4GB sticks do exist (they seem to be harder to find lately, and when I do, they've gotten on the expensive side). UDIMM variant of DDR2-533 ECC, CL = 4.

Make sure you get the correct arrangement (x8 or x16, as x4 won't work).
 
You guys are crazy. I don't need a fibre channel enclosure... What card other than the stock card supports direct integratng into the computer? I don't want to deal with cable management again.
 
You guys are crazy. I don't need a fibre channel enclosure... What card other than the stock card supports direct integratng into the computer? I don't want to deal with cable management again.
Neither does UltraNeo, as I pointed out a couple of posts back. ;)

Which Mac Pro are you using exactly?
Solutions exist, and cabling isn't bad in the '06 - '08's. MaxUpgrades has a solution for the trace wiring used in the '09's to access the HDD bays, but it will set you back extra cash ($165USD).

Either way, there's a few really good 3rd party cards that will blow the doors off Apple's card, and then some. :p

What exactly do you need?

I know you wanted 4x drives in RAID5, but do you want extra ports for expansion (say an 8 port card rather than a 4}?
What OS environment, and boot environment?
(Things like this will make the difference). Likely, you'd need a SAS card in order to boot OS X, but if it needs to operate in multiple OS environments, it will limit the range of cards.

Take a look along the lines of Areca's SAS models (1680 series, maybe the 12xx SAS units as well, if you only need say 4 ports) and Highpoint's RR43xx series. Atto as well, but they tend to be a little more expensive.
 
Huh? No. I'm looking for the process name. Isn't there a process name?
I'll have to check this out. I can find some of mine, but they're card specific.

i.e. the Marvell SATA & SAS chips on the board are under:
zRaidTray.exe *32
 
What exactly do you need?

I know you wanted 4x drives in RAID5, but do you want extra ports for expansion (say an 8 port card rather than a 4}?
What OS environment, and boot environment?
(Things like this will make the difference).


How does the,say,areca card handle multiple raid systems?
Can you make a internal raid 10, then one external raid5 and one external raid0,for example? Or are you limited to only same types of raids?
 
How does the,say,areca card handle multiple raid systems?
Can you make a internal raid 10, then one external raid5 and one external raid0,for example? Or are you limited to only same types of raids?
Yes, they can do multiple arrays, in any type that you've got enough drives for, and the card is capable of managing. :)
 
I'll have to check this out. I can find some of mine, but they're card specific.

i.e. the Marvell SATA & SAS chips on the board are under:
zRaidTray.exe *32

Yeah, something like that. I looked in the process list of the Activity Monitor and didn't see anything that stood out as being for "IO" or "RAID" or etc.. I used the XTools "Instruments" and loaded the "Disk Monitor" which has a processor load field connected to it. But I dunno if that's specific to drive I/O related CPU load or includes other stuff. I think it is but I can't be sure. I think it is because I wrote a script that touches every file ( -aR ) on the drive and between it, iTunes, the Activity Monitor, Instruments, and Vuze the system was at 30% total but the load field peaked at 2% and then back to 0.01% when the operation was over. Anyway I'd like to know for sure so if you find out please tell.
 
Yeah, something like that. I looked in the process list of the Activity Monitor and didn't see anything that stood out as being for "IO" or "RAID" or etc.. I used the XTools "Instruments" and loaded the "Disk Monitor" which has a processor load field connected to it. But I dunno if that's specific to drive I/O related CPU load or includes other stuff. I think it is but I can't be sure. I think it is because I wrote a script that touches every file ( -aR ) on the drive and between it, iTunes, the Activity Monitor, Instruments, and Vuze the system was at 30% total but the load field peaked at 2% and then back to 0.01% when the operation was over. Anyway I'd like to know for sure so if you find out please tell.
I've not located anything else. But I've only been looking under Vista, as I don't have OS X.

If you load up your windows install, just run a benchmark (HD Tune), and it has a CPU % indicator. Not the simplest, and only shows the % used during the bench, but it does go at it heavily and should give you an idea (the calculations shouldn't be that different between OS's). :p
 
nanofrog said:
What exactly do you need?

I don't own any Mac Pro at the moment. I do plan to buy one on Monday which means it will be the 2009 model.*

All it needs to do is handle at least 3 Intel SSDs in RAID 0 which is around 700MB/s of bandwidth. For that job it would require SATA connectivity. RAID 5 usability would be optimal as well because if I install 4 drives it will be RAID 5 instead of RAID 0. *

The more connectors the better of course. Personally I want eSATA for maximum expandabilty in the future.*

My boot environment will be only OS X.
 
I don't own any Mac Pro at the moment. I do plan to buy one on Monday which means it will be the 2009 model.*

All it needs to do is handle at least 3 Intel SSDs in RAID 0 which is around 700MB/s of bandwidth. For that job it would require SATA connectivity. RAID 5 usability would be optimal as well because if I install 4 drives it will be RAID 5 instead of RAID 0. *

The more connectors the better of course. Personally I want eSATA for maximum expandabilty in the future.*

My boot environment will be only OS X.
For an '09 model, you'd need one of these in order to use the HDD bays (you'd need the one that goes for $165USD for the SFF-8087 cable to connect to the card). Unfortunately, the current model uses traces on the PCB (logic board) for HDD data rather than cabling, and an adapter is needed. Unless you'd want to go pure external.

There's a couple of card series from Areca that would work:
ARC-1212 or ARC-1222
ARC-1680 series

You can also look at Highpoint's RR43xx series as well.

All of these cards will boot OS X. :D Port counts and features will vary, and affects the cost accordingly. BTW, Areca designed and manufactures the RR43xx models for Highpoint.

There is something I should caution you on though. These are all SAS cards, and are extremely picky about SATA drives, which means it will need to be an enterprise model (due to the recovery timings), and pay attention to the Hardware Compatibility List for any card you look at.

As it happens, all of these will run the WD RE3 line. I can confirm it works on Areca's gear, and IIRC, other members have used it successfully on the Highpoint as well.

It's basic, but hopefully enough to get you started. :)
 
Thanks everyone for the help so far. Fast forward this to today…

I ordered the Areca ARC-1212 RAID card; I got an open box version which was $100 less than retail with full warranty, accessories, from a reputable shop. I will probably put that $100 I saved on the ARC-6120 battery for the write cache. I also ordered the miniSAS backplane from MaxUpgrades, so at the end of the week, I should be good to go and ready to rock.

Now of course there is something I have not yet considered, but it looks like I need to. Unfortunately, I don't have time to fully reinstall and configure my desktop machine. Is it possible for me to simply transfer the "software" RAID 10 I have already set up to the Areca card and set the same 2 drives as the stripes to mirror the other 2 drives?

Basically my current drive configuration is [a][a]==stripe== for RAID 10. When I move it to Areca card it will be in the same configuration, do I need to reinstall everything? The reason I bought the card now, is because when I do find the time I will reconfigure everything into RAID 5, but again at this time I don't have time for a full reconfiguration.

Of course all this worry is fruitless if I can just clone my RAID10 into the RAID5?

Can I just run the Install DVD, run Disk Utility, make an image of my primary RAID to an external drive, redo the entire array into RAID 5 with the Areca card, restore from the cloned image to the new RAID 5, and be good to go?

nanofrog: Where is the list that says what drives I should use?

Regards.
 
Thanks everyone for the help so far. Fast forward this to today…

I ordered the Areca ARC-1212 RAID card; I got an open box version which was $100 less than retail with full warranty, accessories, from a reputable shop. I will probably put that $100 I saved on the ARC-6120 battery for the write cache. I also ordered the miniSAS backplane from MaxUpgrades, so at the end of the week, I should be good to go and ready to rock.

Now of course there is something I have not yet considered, but it looks like I need to. Unfortunately, I don't have time to fully reinstall and configure my desktop machine. Is it possible for me to simply transfer the "software" RAID 10 I have already set up to the Areca card and set the same 2 drives as the stripes to mirror the other 2 drives?

Basically my current drive configuration is [a][a]==stripe== for RAID 10. When I move it to Areca card it will be in the same configuration, do I need to reinstall everything? The reason I bought the card now, is because when I do find the time I will reconfigure everything into RAID 5, but again at this time I don't have time for a full reconfiguration.

Of course all this worry is fruitless if I can just clone my RAID10 into the RAID5?

Can I just run the Install DVD, run Disk Utility, make an image of my primary RAID to an external drive, redo the entire array into RAID 5 with the Areca card, restore from the cloned image to the new RAID 5, and be good to go?

nanofrog: Where is the list that says what drives I should use?

Regards.

Hardware Compatibility List for Areca.

A clone wouldn't work in this case, as it would be missing the drivers for the card. So you need to do a backup, then create the array, and install the OS, then restore the data. The drives will be wiped when you initialize the disks as well, so get the data first. If you don't, it's gone.
 
Hardware Compatibility List for Areca.

A clone wouldn't work in this case, as it would be missing the drivers for the card. So you need to do a backup, then create the array, and install the OS, then restore the data. The drives will be wiped when you initialize the disks as well, so get the data first. If you don't, it's gone.

Darn; it looks like I'll be doing a lot more work than I want to. :(

At least my drives are compatible. Thanks anyways. :eek:
 
Darn; it looks like I'll be doing a lot more work than I want to. :(

At least my drives are compatible. Thanks anyways. :eek:
:cool: NP. :)

That's how it goes when switching from software based to hardware based RAID. :eek: ;) Backup, tear down/install new hardware, setup the new array (data gets wiped), and restore data. :p It's not hard IMO, it just takes some time. Half a day, unless the data is huge or the volume count is high (initialization under parity based array types). Data restoration is automatic, once the procedure is begun. :) Most of the time is spent waiting for some step to complete. ;)
 
It sounds from that project that is worthwhile to use large 1-2 TB disks without RAID for mass storage of data that you do not need too often. At least you dont have to do painfull work to archive them off a system or run the drives by another system if you change your setup. How many people really need mirrroring if you have a good backup.
 
It sounds from that project that is worthwhile to use large 1-2 TB disks without RAID for mass storage of data that you do not need too often. At least you dont have to do painfull work to archive them off a system or run the drives by another system if you change your setup. How many people really need mirrroring if you have a good backup.
Keep in mind, a Mirror (RAID1) /= Backup. :) A mirror is meant to keep the system operational in case of a drive failure.

Some get confused with this, and might missinterpret your wording, and end up thinking a mirror is a backup solution. ;)
 
It is definitely not meant that way. I wanted to discuss the benefits of mirroring large data reservoirs versus only backing them up. I may take a bit to get the backup operational but who is running online businesses with huge databases that have to be failsafe? Not so many MacPro owners I guess. So if you can afford a bit of interruption put your slow data on huge disks and just back them up. Saves a lot of disk space and hassle when you need to reconfigure your system.
 
It is definitely not meant that way. I wanted to discuss the benefits of mirroring large data reservoirs versus only backing them up. I may take a bit to get the backup operational but who is running online businesses with huge databases that have to be failsafe? Not so many MacPro owners I guess. So if you can afford a bit of interruption put your slow data on huge disks and just back them up. Saves a lot of disk space and hassle when you need to reconfigure your system.
Like you, I doubt most MP's are used as servers, so a mirror isn't commonly a requirement. :)

A simple, large disk for a backup solution works well. Only when the required capacity exceeds that of a single drive does a more complicated solution become necessary. Personally, the simpler the better. It also happens to save a drive bay (or more), external enclosures (whether NAS, PM,...), and is also the cheapest way. Makes for a nice combination. :D
 
Okay my open box order for the Areca card didn't really work out; too much hassle about my billing address not matching up; it just annoyed me, so I ordered it from NewEgg. I am currently back up important files to a Bluray DL disk (testing out my new burner :)); it looks like that's pretty much the only need stuff that needs to be backed up (that totals to around 40GB). All my preferences are synced with MobileMe (at least MobileMe is good for something right?), and the rest of my primary disk space is taken up by: 1) X-Plane @ 77GB, 2) FCS3 @ 60GB, and 3) CS4 @ 8GB. And the assortment of programs to complete it at around another 15GB; Snow Leopard uses about 12GB. It would seem that I really don't have that much reconfiguring to do.

I'm looking forward to fixing my drives up with RAID 5 and gaining 300GB of usable space. :)

Hopefully with the RAID card, this thing will actually let me install Windows.

Keep in mind, a Mirror (RAID1) /= Backup. :) A mirror is meant to keep the system operational in case of a drive failure.

Some get confused with this, and might missinterpret your wording, and end up thinking a mirror is a backup solution. ;)

No worries, I know a mirror is not a backup solution. :)

That said at this time my mirrored stripe is my only back up :D

Half a day, unless the data is huge or the volume count is high (initialization under parity based array types). Data restoration is automatic, once the procedure is begun. :) Most of the time is spent waiting for some step to complete. ;)

I'm confused with your wording here; what do you mean by initialization? Is that just the set-up phase or are we talking about something deep here.

As with restoration, I know pretty much how long it takes to install my 3 big ass programs (around 5 hours).

------

Which brings me to the point of my Time Machine implementation… my desktop has an external drive connected that acts as the Time Machine disk for all the other computers on my network; I will not have to redo all the backups when I reconfigure the computer after re-installation right?
 
I'm confused with your wording here; what do you mean by initialization? Is that just the set-up phase or are we talking about something deep here.
It's part of the setup. The biggest time wise, especially if you're going for RAID5.

Once you select the drives, the array type, capacity,..., you eventually get to the point you create the array. Think of it as low level formatting. That's the intitialization stage. That's where the stripe size is laid down on the drive set, as well as the parity area of each member (drive).

As with restoration, I know pretty much how long it takes to install my 3 big ass programs (around 5 hours).

------

Which brings me to the point of my Time Machine implementation… my desktop has an external drive connected that acts as the Time Machine disk for all the other computers on my network; I will not have to redo all the backups when I reconfigure the computer after re-installation right?
Once you get everything setup, get the initial backup done, as it will save you a lot of effort and some time if you ever have a problem. ;)

No, the previous backups for the other systems will remain unaffected, unless you make a mistake. :eek: :p
 
I am currently back[ing] up important files to a Bluray DL disk (testing out my new burner :))

How long does it take to write one DL disk?


It's part of the setup. The biggest time wise, especially if you're going for RAID5.

Once you select the drives, the array type, capacity,..., you eventually get to the point you create the array. Think of it as low level formatting. That's the intitialization stage. That's where the stripe size is laid down on the drive set, as well as the parity area of each member (drive).

In MP OS X Firmware RAID doing a RAID0 of 3 or 4 drives this takes about 4 to 8 seconds.

Doing a RAID0 of 12 USB 8 Gig thumb Drives this takes about 1 full minute. And for eight 16 Gig Compact Flash Cards nearly the same. :D
 
In MP OS X Firmware RAID doing a RAID0 of 3 or 4 drives this takes about 4 to 8 seconds.
RAID0 is quick, whether it's a software or hardware solution. :)

But alphaod is interested in RAID5, and I included the basic steps in the time estimate for a bootable array.

The initialization itself, takes ~30m/TB or so. It varies of course, depending on the drives, and drive count (based on the Areca ARC-1680 series). In general, even the card matters. Some are faster than others, as features such as firmware copies of the partition tables add some time to the process.

So I figured in:
  • Hardware installation
  • The creation of the array (figure ~2hrs here)
  • Clean OS install (clean & by hand, but not multiple OS's if intended)


I didn't figure in:
  • Backup the data from the existing array, as it would be done prior to building the new array. (Follow the shipment tracking, and do it the day/night before everything arrives (typically last item needed, as I'll assume different vendors). He already seems to be doing this via BL disks. :D
  • Application installation, as that one is a massive YMMV. ;)
  • Data restoration from backups (assuming it's only data, not applications)
  • Make a system backup/clone

Add these, it would be a minimum of a very long day, even as some of these steps are: "start & walk away until completed, then start the next in the sequence". So lots of waiting involved. :rolleyes: ;)
 
How long does it take to write one DL disk?

About 1:10 (H:MM). Yeah it's slow, especially since it was burned to a RE disk. I think if I used standard write-once disks it should half the time.

The initialization itself, takes ~30m/TB or so. It varies of course, depending on the drives, and drive count (based on the Areca ARC-1680 series). In general, even the card matters. Some are faster than others, as features such as firmware copies of the partition tables add some time to the process.

Alright looks like I'm looking at a long weekend ahead.

As with the initialization my drives are only 300GB each, so it should be pretty fast right?

Add these, it would be a minimum of a very long day, even as some of these steps are: "start & walk away until completed, then start the next in the sequence". So lots of waiting involved. :rolleyes: ;)

That's what I'm not looking forward to.
 
Alright looks like I'm looking at a long weekend ahead.
It'll keep you off the streets. :p

As with the initialization my drives are only 300GB each, so it should be pretty fast right?
Not necessarily, as it starts out on the fastest tracks and then gets to the slowest. The estimate I gave is an average of it, but it seems to correlate as a general rule of thumb in my experience (also note, the models I based this estimate are SATA enterprise drives; WD RE3's most recently).

Which drives, and how many?

That's what I'm not looking forward to.
It's not that hard, just time consuming, as you have to wait between the completion of each task. Not much multitasking can be done, until you get to the application and driver installation.

The creation is all sequential steps, as is most of the OS installation (initial at least).
 
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