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They have, 2010 and MAYBE 2012 Mac Pro was the last good one. I seem to recall 2012 Mac Pro having some controversial decisions too but maybe I am remembering wrong.

Again, it's not rocket science. Get Dell to help you build a desktop computer if you cannot do it yourself. Apple is one of the biggest IT companies and they haven't been able to make a proper desktop since 2012! The 2019 was severely over engineered. That was also over priced as well.

I am not the type to argue about Apple's pricing, I literally have 8 Macs. Including TWO almost maxed out M2 Ultra Mac Studios. But let's be real. Even the 2019 Mac Pro was way too expensive for its offering. I was thinking about getting one, but the 2019 i9 iMac was a FAR better option with FAR better specs with several thousand dollars less.
The problem is Apple dont care about what's going on instead of brainwashing. Final Cut Pro markets are totally dying as Apple dont care about them and now, Mac Pro is going to die which only affects to shrink the entire pro markets.

As a result, Apple cant even make a powerful server to replace Nvidia GPU which is a serious problem.
 
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Then why didn't they update the Mac Studio when M3 was the latest? Why wait until M4 Max to release M3 Ultra?

It just speaks volumes that Apple does not care about the pro line of the Macs at all ever since the trash can Mac Pro and they BARELY care about the laptop line.

If what you are saying is true that there was ZERO possibility of making an M4 Ultra, then maybe go back to Intel or AMD if you cannot properly make a high end processor - huh? If Apple is so incompetent at it, there is Intel and AMD that blow away anything M3 Ultra is capable of and now I have ZERO confidence Apple will EVER match the desktop power of the x86 alternatives.

EDIT: Okay even if I grant you that there were extreme limitations on the M4 that could NOT have the Ultra variant. Why isn't the Mac Pro updated to M3 Ultra? Why is the Mac Pro STILL $7,000+?

MAYBE......just MAYBE......an over engineered $7,000 tower that can barely compete with a $2,500 x86 system is the reason it is not selling well? Why the heck would ANYONE purchase a Mac Pro today while it is still stuck on M2 Ultra? Why the heck would ANYONE purchase the Mac Pro back when M2 Ultra was the latest when it had a $3,000 premium.

Oh right, I know only those that REQUIRE PCIe. Nobody in their right mind would get one for any other reason. And everyone wonders why it isn't selling well?
The weird thing is their pricing, if you remember (or look back for the last singe CPU Power Mac G5), their pricing was $1,799 of November 18, 2003, about $3,149.00 in 2025.

So a Mac Pro within that price point, just a little bit more expensive than a Mac Studio would make sense, but no, they are charging $3000 more just for the case and a few PCIe expansion slots.

They killed the Mac Pro on purpose.
 
Remember when we were all waiting for the Univac to be upgraded? So upset. Just had to make do with a Cray Supercomputer waiting.
 
Mac Studio with 2x M.2 slots underneath and call it a day.

PCIe slots available is a nice to have for some, but it’s such a small percentage of Apple’s consumer base that it would make sense for them to move on from the tower.
It’s almost like the Mac Pro is a product for… professionals.
 
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I always got a laugh out of the people who like to say stuff like "it's not for you", "it's for professionals", "you're obviously not the target audience so stop complaining"

I've seen scientists making half a million dollars a year doing that with a dell laptop held together by duct tape.

Good grief.

Look, there are people who want something more than a Mac Studio, but not quite a Mac Pro, and they don't want to spend $7k or tens of thousands of dollars to get it. Of course they'll complain.

Why do you make it your life's mission to step all over the people who do that? Why does it bother you so much? Let them be.
 
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Seriously, I’d like something like „Mac Pro Ultra” which is like your Mac Pro, but you can fill PCIe slots with cards that are equivalent to Mac Mini or Studio in computing power, basically DPUs with their own Apple Silicon SoC, RAM, local storage, maybe 10/100 GbE and Thunderbolt at the back, and they have internal interconnect over PCIe and some shared memory. Imagine clustering and computation possibilities one of those things would give.
See my previous reply. The M series chips can’t support that as the lack the PCIe lanes necessary. Studio is about as capable as you’ll get. Even if they ditch the Thunderbolt ports you’d get one x16 slot.
 
Mac Studio with 2x M.2 slots underneath and call it a day.

PCIe slots available is a nice to have for some, but it’s such a small percentage of Apple’s consumer base that it would make sense for them to move on from the tower.
A good M.2 slot uses the same x4 PCIe lanes as a Thunderbolt port so you’d be losing two TB ports if you made this change. I think Apple have chosen what most people want. It would be nice if the core storage was always replaceable though.
 
See my previous reply. The M series chips can’t support that as the lack the PCIe lanes necessary. Studio is about as capable as you’ll get. Even if they ditch the Thunderbolt ports you’d get one x16 slot.

Yea it's a real shame the M chips don't give us an opportunity for upgradeable ram or pcie slots. Of course, that's all good business for apple lol.

I suppose one could argue, if they made a $3000 mac pro today and it was essentially an m4 max $2k studio but you could upgrade the ram and storage to your heart's content, you might still be better off just buying the cheaper studio every few years instead of upgrading.
 
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I think he'd mostly resigned himself to getting a Studio at some point anyhow.
Honestly, reports like this might be better for him as it nudges him closer to clarity and might get him to finally jump and move on.

It's kind of amazing an ATP host is still on an Intel Mac with 2026 upon us.

He spent a lot of money on that machine, under the assumption it would be a 10-year machine. Then Apple announced the switch to Apple Silicon about 6 months later.

I doubt he was in a hurry to lock in a massive loss on his machine by selling it, so it made sense to at least wait to see what the Apple Silicon version would be like. Whilst the first revision was a minimal effort job by Apple (and confirmed my move to PC), Siracusa likely held out hope for a more thorough redesign at some point.
 
Can anyone on this thread give some examples of modern day PCIe cards use cases? What specific cards are used by the pros in what fields? And why would you need them in the same box as your main CPU?

- Graphics cards.

- Fields that do 3D animation / visualisation, or anyone who just needs masses of parallel compute.

- They benefit from a high bandwidth connection to the rest of the machine i.e. PCI 4.0+ x16, rather than a dribble through a Thunderbolt cable. Plus, housing them in a separate box, with their own PSU / cooling, is more expensive and less elegant than housing internally.


It's a bit of circular argument to not support the single biggest application for PCIe slots (by far), then declare the lack of interest in a PCIe-equipped Mac is evidence that PCIe slots aren't relevant any more.
 
The professional software industry bears the primary responsibility for the failure to support dual GPUs in the 2013 Mac Pro.

No, Apple bears all responsibility for building a machine that suited them rather than their customers. The choice of dual GPUs was dictated by the need to spread heat output around the core of a small cylinder, not because spreading parallel compute over multiple cards is inherently better. And where parallel compute is a priority, a tower with the space, power and cooling for multiple high-end GPUs makes even more sense.

It wasn't up to the software industry to prop up Apple's hardware preferences.

The industry’s assumption that single GPUs with hundreds of watts of power were necessary led to Apple’s admission of being cornered into a thermal predicament.

Large, powerful GPUs haven't gone away, because parallel workloads haven't and there's a demand for processors that can handle them quickly.

The only one to blame was Apple, for deciding their Pro machine should be a small cylinder, then belatedly admitting it wasn't up to the job of cooling professional GPUs.

However, the demand for such large and cumbersome computers has diminished.

Well, who wants a big, extremely expensive tower with non-expandable RAM, a relatively low memory ceiling, and no ability to add the most popular type of PCIe card - a GPU? It's a bit of a circular argument to make a terrible product, then cite it as evidence that no one is interested in the category anymore.

A tower Mac is something Apple simply don't want to make, for all sorts of reasons. It's an even worse fit in their line up in the Apple Silicon era. They tried refactoring it into a tube, then an iMac; then grudgingly re-launched it as a tower but at a price that made it worth it to them. But their heart clearly isn't in it.
 
Ok, in your expert knowledge, what part of the M4 Max would you lop off to fit in the interconnect?
Change SoC to MCM or chiplet. You dont need to lop off anything unless you are using SoC since you cant change anything. This is the main issue of Apple Silicon especially since it was meant for mobile, not desktop. Besides, it's extremely expensive to mass produce.

This is why M6 series are rumored to get a whole new chip design thanks to TSMC's new technology so I would wait for that.
 
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A tower Mac is something Apple simply don't want to make, for all sorts of reasons. It's an even worse fit in their line up in the Apple Silicon era.
The problem there will eventually be that as users realise that Mac can only get them so far, people will adopt other systems before they need a pro machine. Why waste time investing in skills that won’t translate into a career? May as well learn Linux or Windows and have the machines available when you need them. Old Apple and old Microsoft knew this and invested in school age people to drive sales later when they become pros.
There may be a generation of Apple customers who realise too late that there is no pro solution from Apple, and iPods don’t output pro audio like they’d been told. Consumption isn’t a very lucrative career!
 
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This is why M6 series are rumored to get a whole new chip design thanks to TSMC's new technology so I would wait for that.
Ah, the old “don’t worry something amazing is coming” line 🤣
It would be hard for Apple to add sufficient bandwidth and interconnects to the chip and I’m not sure there’s a bug enough market for someone like Tim to go after it. I hope I’m wrong but what would they even name a chip above th Ultra?!
 
Ah, the old “don’t worry something amazing is coming” line 🤣
It would be hard for Apple to add sufficient bandwidth and interconnects to the chip and I’m not sure there’s a bug enough market for someone like Tim to go after it. I hope I’m wrong but what would they even name a chip above th Ultra?!
It's not something new. Apple has been working with TSMC for a while cause SoC itself has a lot of problems especially in terms of price and specs. That's why MCM or chiplet designs introduced. Not exactly MCM or chiplet but something more advanced that Apple can create each CPU, GPU, NPU, other controllers separately and then combine them all in one chip to save money while having expandability and scalability.

Otherwise, making M series chip will only hurts Apple after all.
 
I think a lot of it has to do with greed and the decisions of marketing, not engineers. Just look at the Mac mini M4. Apple has shown that it has absolutely all the technological ingredients to put together the perfect home computer, but that it doesn't want to.

If they had kept the old case size, the computer could have been organized so that it had access to two (and there would have been room for four) standard NVMe slots on the bottom and people could easily upgrade their own computers with storage at normal market prices. Maybe a new user initiative is needed - "Right to upgrade!"? :)

Apple knows how good they are and knows that they have no real competition, and then they use that market advantage to corner customers on RAM and storage. I don't like that philosophy because I believe that with an open approach they would have even better sales, more satisfied customers, a wider user base and overall similar profits.
 
In a sense, Apple attempts to cover all the bases, in a manner that's profitable and convenient for them.

For example, no modular Mac back on 2015, because the iMac already exists, and was deemed good enough for the majority of professional workflows, even though it didn't directly address power users' demand for expandability and the freedom to connect their own displays.

Yep, this is what I meant, but you said it better.

And thus, history repeats. I believe the Mac Studio negates the Mac Pro (in Apple's view) for the same reasons.
 
Why this product line wasn't discontinued with the introduction of the Mac Studio I'll never understand...
Mac Pro is a workstation computer which Mac Studio is not even close to it. M3 Ultra is only as good as RTX 4070's performance while Nvidia has RTX 5090 and many workstation and server grade GPU. Besides, it takes up to 4x GPU.

Now, Apple is trying to ditch Mac Pro and it only shrink and limit the amount of markets that it can be used. Since Apple Silicon Mac already shrink a lot of markets thanks to poor GPU performance and compatibility, it will only kill their own pro markets after all.
 
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Ok, in your expert knowledge, what part of the M4 Max would you lop off to fit in the interconnect?
Again if you as a company are incapable of providing a high performance desktop processor just go back to Intel at this point. The biggest advantage of M series is the power and thermals. Mac Pro does NOT need to be low powered.

Apple has not beaten and will NEVER beat an i9/AMD equivalent with even a 4080 GPU.
 
The weird thing is their pricing, if you remember (or look back for the last singe CPU Power Mac G5), their pricing was $1,799 of November 18, 2003, about $3,149.00 in 2025.

So a Mac Pro within that price point, just a little bit more expensive than a Mac Studio would make sense, but no, they are charging $3000 more just for the case and a few PCIe expansion slots.

They killed the Mac Pro on purpose.

I feel like we all noticed the pricing when it was announced and felt the same way.

They seemed to reluctantly do one more Mac Pro, but through wild overpricing and then having no future plan for it seemed to set out to kill it for good this time around.
 
Again if you as a company are incapable of providing a high performance desktop processor just go back to Intel at this point. The biggest advantage of M series is the power and thermals. Mac Pro does NOT need to be low powered.

Apple has not beaten and will NEVER beat an i9/AMD equivalent with even a 4080 GPU.
CPU is the best but GPU sucks and they cant increase GPU cores cause it's SoC. Hopefully, they use a new chip design from M6 series.
 
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Again if you as a company are incapable of providing a high performance desktop processor just go back to Intel at this point. The biggest advantage of M series is the power and thermals. Mac Pro does NOT need to be low powered.

Apple has not beaten and will NEVER beat an i9/AMD equivalent with even a 4080 GPU.
They made one, there is an updated ultra in the studio (which BTW, still beats every chip on the market that isn’t designed by Apple in single core performance, period, no matter TDP, and beats any chip anywhere near its TDP on multicore), they just didn’t make the chip *you* want
 
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