Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
You missed out on a key detail here ... iPhone = $200-$300, MacPro is $5000-$20,000. Also, another KEY piece of information you skipped over is that the profit margin on a MacPro is considerably higher than that of the iPhone or the iPad.
Profit Margin (expressed as a percentage), is about the same (~53 - 54% or so). Where the products differentiate themselves however, is through a much higher sales volume of the iDevices (iPhone or iPad for example).

So even though the MP may bring in more profit in terms of dollars per unit, this is offset by the drastically higher sales volumes of the iPhones and iPads in terms of total gross or net revenues generated between these products. As a result, the ROI's on the devices are extremely attractive, and is what the business side of any company will pursue.
 

robains

macrumors regular
Nov 27, 2009
129
0
California
Profit Margin (expressed as a percentage), is about the same (~53 - 54% or so). Where the products differentiate themselves however, is through a much higher sales volume of the iDevices (iPhone or iPad for example).

So even though the MP may bring in more profit in terms of dollars per unit, this is offset by the drastically higher sales volumes of the iPhones and iPads in terms of total gross or net revenues generated between these products. As a result, the ROI's on the devices are extremely attractive, and is what the business side of any company will pursue.

Volumes sales isn't going to happen if you don't update the hardware ... iPhones/iPads get updated every year. Add downgraded applications such as FCP 7 vs. FCPX and that's not going help professional sales or the sales of MacPro.

As far as ROI ... making a MacPro is far far easier (much less R&D since it's all off the shelf existing parts, Intel, NVidia, ATI, with drivers provide by those companies, for the most part it's just a EFI modification) than making an iPhone or iPad (electrical issue, reception issues, touch sensitivity issues, size issues, power issues, heat issues, etc. etc.). Sure the "profit" margin of iPhone 4S is reported at 60-70% ... but that ONLY if you are talking about pure cost of components and NOT the R&D costs to produce those components and make them all work together in a small package -- a huge investment in resources to make iOS work with those components. If you look at the entire picture, rather than taking just small "out of context" segments, the ROI on an iPhone or iPad is MUCH lower (not higher) than the MacPro.

I agree, volume sales is why the iPhone and iPad continue but that also means volume MUST be maintained ... reduce the volume and the ROI gets worse and worse for the iPhone and iPad. History has demonstrated that all devices reach a level of saturation, we're already seeing that with the iPhone, it appears to hit it's saturation point. Fortunately for Apple iPads are still growing but they will hit the same saturation point as iPhones. It's inevitable. When that happens, a company NEEDS diversity of product.

But why put all your eggs in one basket? That seems foolish, especially when you consider the dynamics of a consumer and professional market. Keeping a level of diversity in product base is the more prudent business decision.
 

zephonic

macrumors 65816
Feb 7, 2011
1,310
709
greater L.A. area
Like most others here I do hope for another MacPro, but I just don't see it.

Tim Cook never said there was gonna be a new one, last June his words were "we are working on something really great for the pros later next year". That is so deliberately vague that I'm not going to assume it's indeed a new MacPro.

But the kicker to me is that the MacPro is no longer for sale in Europe. I know, I know, new regulations, blah de blah, no point in revising the current model to compliance, blah de blah....bottom line, there is NO MacPro in Europe, possibly its second largest market...

It's smell the coffee time.

Two years ago I bought my pre-owned '09 quad for precisely this reason, to have a Mac workstation just in case it is discontinued. I'm still on 10.6.8 and if I run out of horsepower I can do the hex mod, but I have already come to terms with the fact that my next workstation will be a Windows machine.

@OP: congrats on the new machine! I have happily used Ubuntu for 18+ months on old Asus laptop now, and find that it is every bit as good as OSX, except for the look. If my applications were available for it, I'd have no qualms about switching.
 
Last edited:

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Volumes sales isn't going to happen if you don't update the hardware ... iPhones/iPads get updated every year. Add downgraded applications such as FCP 7 vs. FCPX and that's not going help professional sales or the sales of MacPro.
There's truth to this, but you're ignoring the overall conditions of the marketplace.

Specifically, workstation sales have been on the decline since at least 2009 (there's a thread in here I posted on this, and linked publicly available sources). Combine this with the drastic differences between sales figures (i.e. workstations are selling under 50k units, while the devices are selling in the millions), there's just not as much income generated by the MP as either an iPhone or iPad, even if it was updated annually (or still stuck to Intel's Tick-Tock CPU cycles for the workstation market).

Simply put, the numbers just aren't there any more to justify the professional market in Apple's mind, let alone that kind of frequency of update for a market they're stalling on, if they haven't already abandoned internally.

And BTW, I see the software side as further evidence they no longer consider the professional marketplace (along with the loss of the Xserve) as a viable business segment to stay active.

As far as ROI ... making a MacPro is far far easier (much less R&D since it's all off the shelf existing parts, Intel, NVidia, ATI, with drivers provide by those companies, for the most part it's just a EFI modification) than making an iPhone or iPad (electrical issue, reception issues, touch sensitivity issues, size issues, power issues, heat issues, etc. etc.).
There's a lot more to it, especially as you get into making your own custom board (still have to test it for RFI/EMI issues, ...., even if there aren't any added devices from Intel's Reference Designs <i.e. layout verification/validation>).

As per cost of R&D for the MP, even though Apple doesn't do the hardware (they do still develop the firmware and software; industrial design when they decide on a redesign of it's physical appearance), they're still paying for it. Specifically to Foxconn (Hon Hai Precision), who does the ODM work for the hardware.

Sure the "profit" margin of iPhone 4S is reported at 60-70% ... but that ONLY if you are talking about pure cost of components and NOT the R&D costs to produce those components and make them all work together in a small package -- a huge investment in resources to make iOS work with those components. If you look at the entire picture, rather than taking just small "out of context" segments, the ROI on an iPhone or iPad is MUCH lower (not higher) than the MacPro.
I realize that the cost of component's isn't all-inclusive, which is why the real gross margin is closer to ~53 - 54%. Still a rather high gross margin though.

As per R&D on the devices, it's not as expensive as you might think either. But what is important, is that whatever the total ends up being, it's divided by a much greater number of units, thus reducing the R&D cost per unit vs. the much lower sales volume of the MP. Component costs are separate (part of the manufacturing costs).

It may seem I'm picking nits, but I assure you every design I've ever worked on has required all of this to be separated (and evaluated). R&D, Direct Manufacturing costs, ... all separate line items on the total cost of a product.

History has demonstrated that all devices reach a level of saturation, we're already seeing that with the iPhone, it appears to hit it's saturation point.
Of course, and it's part of a products entire lifecycle. New models help extend it overall of course, but when the sales volume reaches a certain point, it's time to EOL it, and bring out a completely new product/s to replace it, or go belly up from lack of revenue.

Numerous companies have died as a result of not having new products to introduce (or in time to save the company).

But why put all your eggs in one basket? That seems foolish, especially when you consider the dynamics of a consumer and professional market. Keeping a level of diversity in product base is the more prudent business decision.
I'm not advocating an "all in one basket" at all (meaning one or two devices). But you don't need hundreds either to survive, particularly if R&D is done properly (have something ready to go when something reaches EOL). This could mean staying in the same business model, or radically changing the product focus (i.e. as drastic as shifting from hardware to software solutions).

And based on the "Apple HDTV" type rumors, I genuinely don't believe Apple is planning to try and stake the entire company on just a phone and tablet device. They're working on the R&D now in order to try and make sure it's ready to introduce before the iPhone or iPad reach EOL, and keep/start other projects ongoing on a continuous basis to ensure they don't find themselves left without something to sell that can generate the income necessary to keep the company afloat.

But they have, and will continue, to EOL products that don't generate the sales revenue, even if technically speaking, they never saw a loss on those they EOL'ed. Just not enough ROI to continue with it, when those same funds could be put to much better use on another product line with a much healthier ROI.
 

wallysb01

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 30, 2011
1,589
809
There's truth to this, but you're ignoring the overall conditions of the marketplace.

Specifically, workstation sales have been on the decline since at least 2009 (there's a thread in here I posted on this, and linked publicly available sources).

That's actually not true. Deconstruct posted a couple tid bits from those sources but omitted a great deal of detail that went completely contrary to his point.

The title of that report he linked to most recently was actually: "The workstation market settles into more sustainable growth pattern in Q4’12"

The long term trends are definately upward. And it makes complete sense; nothing has changed in the computational world to replace workstations.

Now, you might be right that Apple doesn't see the workstation market as profitable or not profitable enough, but that's speculation. I think we'll see what Apple really thinks about this soon enough.
 

JordanNZ

macrumors 6502a
Apr 29, 2004
770
271
Auckland, New Zealand
JordanNZ,

OpenGL 4.3 is being used, just NOT on OSX or iOS since it doesn't support it. But for the most part DX11 is used on the Windows side which is equivalent to OpenGL 4.x (with perhaps the exception of Cinema 4D folks who frankly are dragging their wheels in order to be Apple friendly and cross platform) ... too bad their Windows version is slaved to Apple's current support of OpenGL 3.x. Other competing products to C4D will view this an "opportunity" for them ;)

Firstly. What features of OpenGL 4.3 would help you exactly?

And could you please point me to a single commercial application that is using OpenGL 4.3... Anything? The Windows AMD drivers don't even support it yet.

And I see you posted over at the C4D forum.. One of the developers replied in that thread. I'll quote them.


"We don't realy wait for apple here, OGL 3 was available in CINEMA 4D on Windows years befor it became available at all on OS X.
Cheers
Bjorn"


It doesn't sound like they're dragging their heels at all. It sounds like they simply don't need it yet.

There are plenty of developers that would like OpenGL 4.x on OSX. But not for the reasons you think.
 

Tesselator

macrumors 601
Jan 9, 2008
4,601
6
Japan
That's actually not true. Deconstruct posted a couple tid bits from those sources but omitted a great deal of detail that went completely contrary to his point.

The title of that report he linked to most recently was actually: "The workstation market settles into more sustainable growth pattern in Q4’12"

This kinda thing is typical for him. I'm calling it "straw men" because he then uses the false or misrepresented info to extrapolate support for his other OT arguments.




Firstly. What features of OpenGL 4.3 would help you exactly?

And could you please point me to a single commercial application that is using OpenGL 4.3... Anything? The Windows AMD drivers don't even support it yet.

And I see you posted over at the C4D forum.. One of the developers replied in that thread. I'll quote them.


"We don't realy wait for apple here, OGL 3 was available in CINEMA 4D on Windows years befor it became available at all on OS X.
Cheers
Bjorn"


It doesn't sound like they're dragging their heels at all. It sounds like they simply don't need it yet.

There are plenty of developers that would like OpenGL 4.x on OSX. But not for the reasons you think.

But OpenGL has always been kinda like that. It doesn't really matter that no developers are currently using version x. When it becomes universally available it gets employed by developers who know how to utilize it. Often it's that "universal" aspect which delays its implementation in a given app platform. 4.3 specifically offers some solutions to memory consumption and instancing which are very useful. It also offers an enhanced debugging environment and protected execution states for greatly enhanced stability.

So it's really not that Maxon doesn't need it yet. In reality they don't "need" ver. 1.2 either. But they would very likely be using 4.3 if it were universally available. If it's Apple who is holding up the show then it's Apple - which is pretty easy to understand, and I believe the point robains was trying to make.
 

JordanNZ

macrumors 6502a
Apr 29, 2004
770
271
Auckland, New Zealand
If it's Apple who is holding up the show then it's Apple - which is pretty easy to understand, and I believe the point robains was trying to make.

But it's not...

"We don't realy wait for apple here, OGL 3 was available in CINEMA 4D on Windows years befor it became available at all on OS X.
Cheers
Bjorn"
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
That's actually not true. Deconstruct posted a couple tid bits from those sources but omitted a great deal of detail that went completely contrary to his point.

The title of that report he linked to most recently was actually: "The workstation market settles into more sustainable growth pattern in Q4’12"

The long term trends are definately upward. And it makes complete sense; nothing has changed in the computational world to replace workstations.

Now, you might be right that Apple doesn't see the workstation market as profitable or not profitable enough, but that's speculation. I think we'll see what Apple really thinks about this soon enough.
:confused:

I'd need to see the sources you're talking about, as those I posted on previously indicate otherwise (steady decline in the workstation segment).

A big part of this had to do with the fact that mainstream processors are capable of enough of a workload to separate off the bottom end of the workstation market, particularly if they don't need ECC memory (remember, Intel tends to make both ECC and non-ECC variants from the same die <disable ECC via cutting traces on the die>), such as from the LGA1155 and LGA2011 socket parts currently.

Other technological advances have influenced this as well, such as some of the heaviest users shifting over to clusters due to decreasing costs (leased time or owned). Keep in mind, the numbers that were listed, separated out workstations from servers, not just basing data off of the Xeon sales figures, as servers are actually up (of which clusters and clouds are helping with).

And don't forget, that top-end systems were used as workstations of the past, as the Pentium Pro, let alone Xeon label, hadn't even been created yet, and didn't use ECC based memory (pre 686 processors).

As per speculation with Apple, of course that's all it is from a technical POV, as they refuse to separate the MP's sales figures from the total computer sales figures. But my opinion is based on available industry data on the workstation market, not my imagination.

All of this said, please understand that I'm not stating the workstation market is dead. Far from it, but it's going to drift farther into niche territory (aka even more expensive) due to the lower sales volumes overall.

Heck, even the tablets such as the iPad are cutting into the laptop and netbook sales as they're powerful enough, and users like the interface better. Just a natural course for technology (out with the old, in with the new wherever applicable).
 

wallysb01

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 30, 2011
1,589
809
I'd need to see the sources you're talking about, as those I posted on previously indicate otherwise (steady decline in the workstation segment).

Here's the link I was talking about:
http://jonpeddie.com/publications/workstation_report/

Here's Q3 12: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/details/the-workstation-market-finds-its-groove-in-q312/

Q2 12: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...-sluggish-in-q212-reports-jon-peddie-researc/

You can keep going back if you like. I simple "jonpeddie QX YY" google search seems to work every time.

Anyway, while the workstation market is very up and down quarter to quarter, the longer trend is very positive.


On your other points, I very much agree that there are many factors squeezing the workstation market. But there are a lot of things pushing it up too. The core count and GPGPU capabilities for workstations are growing very quickly. Making it easier to a lot of work locally, that used to require a cluster. I've certainly used my share of clusters, but I would much rather use my workstation for every possible task. Getting data to and from clusters is often very slow. Even at 50 MB/s it can take all night to send something up. Then the processors on a cluster are often slower than mine (2xE5-2630s), and many of the tools I use can't utilize enough cores on a cluster to beat the 12 I have. And half the time just to get the job started I have to wait in queues multiple days long just to get the job started. Then once done it can take another handful of hours to bring data back.

And with in a year we'll have Intel processors allowing for 20 real cores, GPGPU or Phi cards that add another ~50-100's of slower cores for the embarrassingly parallel work. High-speed local storage is also dropping in price very quickly. Overall I think the factors will allow the workstations market to grow in the top end market for at least the next 3-4 years.

On the low end I think its all about price. Comparable consumer CPUs are the same price as workstation CPUs. ECC RAM is not much more expensive than non-ECC. At 4x4 GB you're only looking at ~$50 or so extra for ECC. Motherboards are the only real spot that workstation costs are quite a bit higher than consumer level hardware. So, its pretty easy to have a low end workstation, with all the benefits that come with, for just a few hundred more than a similarly spec-ed consumer PC. All together, I don't think the low end is going to get crushed by people moving to consumer PCs in the near future either. There just isn't much of a cost difference.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Here's the link I was talking about:
http://jonpeddie.com/publications/workstation_report/

Here's Q3 12: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/details/the-workstation-market-finds-its-groove-in-q312/

Q2 12: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...-sluggish-in-q212-reports-jon-peddie-researc/

You can keep going back if you like. I simple "jonpeddie QX YY" google search seems to work every time.

Anyway, while the workstation market is very up and down quarter to quarter, the longer trend is very positive.
Actually, what I'm getting from JPR isn't all that different from what I've noticed and read about in other industry publications (sadly, they require a subscription to read).

For example, take a look at the following just from the articles you've linked.

TIBURON, California September 9, 2012 – The results from the workstation market's first quarter were disappointing, as it marked the first two consecutive quarters of negative growth since 2008. And if industry observers needed more evidence of the market's listlessness, they need look no farther than the second quarter's numbers. Alex Herrera, Senior Analyst at Jon Peddie Research, reports that around 883 thousand workstations shipped worldwide in the quarter, down 3.8% from the quarter prior and 2.6% from Q2'11.

TIBURON, Calif- December 10, 2012 - Going back to fourth quarter of 2011, the workstation market had hit some roadblocks, suffering three consecutive down quarters.

The workstation market settles into more sustainable growth pattern in Q4’12 - The workstation industry expected more out of fourth quarter market results than it ended up getting. After an encouraging third quarter's results that seemed to break the market out of its recent stagnation, it looked like the clouds were beginning to clear. However, rather than basking in a mostly sunny fourth quarter, vendors instead again weathered partly cloudy conditions.

Firstly of course, these are just figures for 2012 (Q2, Q3, and Q4), so on their own, shouldn't be used as a long-term indicator (though very relevant; just need data over a longer time span).

What I see of all of this, is that the workstation market's more recent growth spurt/stabilization, is just pent up demand from companies that had previously closed their purse strings on new equipment purchases since they extended their product service life/planning cycles to weather the economic storm as they saw it. So they're just buying systems now they should have replaced a couple of years ago rather than adding a bunch of new ones (i.e. hired a fair number of new employees = real growth).

Something I hadn't mentioned previously, and probably should have, is that the planned product lifecycle extension is likely to continue with these extended periods permanently, rather than reverting back. I'm seeing this from clients, and it's reinforced in their minds due to the fact it's worked, if not as well as they'd have liked, due to their continued concern over current economic conditions.

BTW, hiring patterns for engineers and scientists are a good secondary indicator for true growth (not replacement systems) in this segment. Unfortunately, this isn't really happening from what I understand. Even China has significantly slowed their pace on trying to hire these types of positions, as they're no longer chasing Western talent anything close to what they were just a few years ago. What they are hiring, are from internal sources.

Now I'm not saying that the more recent data isn't positive (I like growth), but I'm not leaping to the conclusion that the workstation market's long-term slump is over. Too many other indicators that back up the opposite conclusion, so I only see it as a slowing down of the rate that occurred say back in 2009. But not a full reversal of fortunes as it were. :(

On your other points, I very much agree that there are many factors squeezing the workstation market. But there are a lot of things pushing it up too. The core count and GPGPU capabilities for workstations are growing very quickly. Making it easier to a lot of work locally, that used to require a cluster. I've certainly used my share of clusters, but I would much rather use my workstation for every possible task. Getting data to and from clusters is often very slow. Even at 50 MB/s it can take all night to send something up. Then the processors on a cluster are often slower than mine (2xE5-2630s), and many of the tools I use can't utilize enough cores on a cluster to beat the 12 I have. And half the time just to get the job started I have to wait in queues multiple days long just to get the job started. Then once done it can take another handful of hours to bring data back.

And with in a year we'll have Intel processors allowing for 20 real cores, GPGPU or Phi cards that add another ~50-100's of slower cores for the embarrassingly parallel work. High-speed local storage is also dropping in price very quickly. Overall I think the factors will allow the workstations market to grow in the top end market for at least the next 3-4 years.
Keep in mind though, that a lot of GPGPU based systems also fall into HPC, and aren't considered workstations at that point. I've not seen a specific delineation point, but to me, it's once you need more than a single motherboard to accomplish the core counts (CPU or GPU), that moves it from a workstation (CPU or GPU) to a cluster.

Granted, they still use a lot of the same type of hardware, but the definition changes. Picking nits perhaps, but the physical implementation is in fact different, particularly in physical location (racks instead of desktop) and the amount of networking required to connect it to users.

As per your experience with clusters, how old is the implementation, and why haven't they improved the networking BW for users?

I ask, as a proper cluster needs to be attached to a properly created SAN system, that can move data in the GB/s range (1 - 10GB/s per user or better). Which means Fibre Channel and/or Infiniband interconnects more than Ethernet (10G Ethernet could still be the connection method for users to the cluster and SAN, but not between nodes).

On the low end I think its all about price. Comparable consumer CPUs are the same price as workstation CPUs. ECC RAM is not much more expensive than non-ECC. At 4x4 GB you're only looking at ~$50 or so extra for ECC. Motherboards are the only real spot that workstation costs are quite a bit higher than consumer level hardware. So, its pretty easy to have a low end workstation, with all the benefits that come with, for just a few hundred more than a similarly spec-ed consumer PC. All together, I don't think the low end is going to get crushed by people moving to consumer PCs in the near future either. There just isn't much of a cost difference.
Don't forget about system vendor markup, as buyers may purchase the entire configuration for support reasons. A lot of large companies do this to simplify problem resolution by using a single contact source when something breaks. Much easier, and usually determined to be less expensive than a larger IT staff + increased down time in man hours.

Also consider, that the accountants see that additional $100 you mention with this sort of expression... :eek: :eek: :eek:, as it's usually multiplied by a larger number. So if they need 1k systems per quarter, that's $10k down the drain in their eyes ($40k/year of lost gross profit). And if they can't be persuaded by their technical personnel that the additional cost per system is in their best interest from a financial POV, there's little chance that extra expense will be approved.

Then there's the technical aspects, which is to say not everyone actually needs ECC. Take animation and video editing for example. That sort of software doesn't require recursion, so a flipped bit isn't catastrophic (get an odd pixel that can be fixed very quickly and easily if it's even visible to the naked eye).

I'm not saying the low-end will be crushed, but it is going to continue to shrink by users' purchasing the mainstream models instead of the Xeon variants (i.e. LGA1155) either due to technical needs don't require it, don't have the budget, or don't know any better.
 

wallysb01

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 30, 2011
1,589
809
A
Firstly of course, these are just figures for 2012 (Q2, Q3, and Q4), so on their own, shouldn't be used as a long-term indicator (though very relevant; just need data over a longer time span).

What I see of all of this, is that the workstation market's more recent growth spurt/stabilization, is just pent up demand from companies that had previously closed their purse strings on new equipment purchases since they extended their product service life/planning cycles to weather the economic storm as they saw it. So they're just buying systems now they should have replaced a couple of years ago rather than adding a bunch of new ones (i.e. hired a fair number of new employees = real growth).

I'm not sure if that's something label as 100% of cause of these number, but it is certainly part of the picture.

Here's a release that has more long term data: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...other-sizeable-step-forward-in-q409-says-jon/

Notice Q3 '08 is at 854K units, by the time the recession was in full swing, that number dropped to around 600 units for several quarters. By Q4 '09 it was back to ~717K units.

So here's a smattering of sales figures over that last 4-5 years:

Q4 09: 717K
Q2 10: 795K
Q3 10: 850K
Q4 10: 903K
Q1 11: 860K
Q2 11: 907K
Q3 11: 1.02M
Q4 11: 998K
Q1 12: 918K
Q2 12: 883K
Q3 12: 932K
Q4 12: 934K

So, I think there is some validity to your idea of companies catching up after the recession, but it happened in Q3/Q4 2011, not today. After sliding from that post-recession catch-up. Sales have climbed back up to near record highs. Remember, the 934K mark represents about a 10% improvement to what was seen pre-recession. The Dow and S&P haven't climbed 10% from pre-recession peaks. While certainly not the best measure for comparison and kinda quick and dirty. The argument that workstation sales are outperforming the general market certainly has a leg to stand on.

Also, think of PC sale during the same time period. Here's some idea: http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/10/technology/pc-sales/index.html

Granted that starts to bring in issues from PCs being cannibalized by tablets and laptops. But on the other hand, weren't PCs supposed to be eating into Workstations?

Anyway, I think the number show general strength of the workstation market. Its had a robust recovery after the recession, and held its ground after a "burst" period of companies and individuals likely finally pulling the trigger on overdue replacements.

Something I hadn't mentioned previously, and probably should have, is that the planned product lifecycle extension is likely to continue with these extended periods permanently, rather than reverting back. I'm seeing this from clients, and it's reinforced in their minds due to the fact it's worked, if not as well as they'd have liked, due to their continued concern over current economic conditions.

I think this is suggestive of maybe slower growth going forward, but not a shrinking market. And this shouldn't be surprising as computer reach maturity as a product in general. Historically, computers are still a relatively new technology. So, you can't expect the computer market grow in the long term as it has over the past decade or two. Modest growth should be seen as success and I think that's what we see with the workstation market.

BTW, hiring patterns for engineers and scientists are a good secondary indicator for true growth (not replacement systems) in this segment. Unfortunately, this isn't really happening from what I understand. Even China has significantly slowed their pace on trying to hire these types of positions, as they're no longer chasing Western talent anything close to what they were just a few years ago. What they are hiring, are from internal sources.

In my field (genomics) there has certainly been a good deal of expansion requiring purchases of workstations. Without looking up some numbers of the broader market though, I don't really want to speculate past that.

Now I'm not saying that the more recent data isn't positive (I like growth), but I'm not leaping to the conclusion that the workstation market's long-term slump is over. Too many other indicators that back up the opposite conclusion, so I only see it as a slowing down of the rate that occurred say back in 2009. But not a full reversal of fortunes as it were. :(

From the numbers I posted above, I'm a little curious what "slump" you're even talking about. Outside Q3/Q4 2011, we've seen the highest sales in workstation history.

Keep in mind though, that a lot of GPGPU based systems also fall into HPC, and aren't considered workstations at that point. I've not seen a specific delineation point, but to me, it's once you need more than a single motherboard to accomplish the core counts (CPU or GPU), that moves it from a workstation (CPU or GPU) to a cluster.

Exactly, if you generally can't do it with a two socket and single GPGPU system, you're probably on a cluster. But my point is that as core count/socket, RAM/machine and GPGPU capabilities continue to increase less work needs to be done on a cluster. From my own observation, computational workloads at the top end are not expanding as fast as the computers themselves. An example from my filed, its now within the task of an affordable workstation (<$10K) to do whole genome assembly. Three years ago that wasn't really the case.

As per your experience with clusters, how old is the implementation, and why haven't they improved the networking BW for users?

Sorry, BW users? Can you clarify?


Also consider, that the accountants see that additional $100 you mention with this sort of expression... :eek: :eek: :eek:, as it's usually multiplied by a larger number. So if they need 1k systems per quarter, that's $10k down the drain in their eyes ($40k/year of lost gross profit). And if they can't be persuaded by their technical personnel that the additional cost per system is in their best interest from a financial POV, there's little chance that extra expense will be approved.

But that $100 probably represents on the order of .1% of the cost of the employee/year using the computer (and presumably the computer should last at least 3 years, right?). So, its not hard to justify from cost/benefit analysis. And if it is 1K systems, that's 1K employees. $10K for company with 1K employees isn't a huge number. Maybe if its all in single month, that could be hard to swallow from a bill paying stand point. But spread out over a year, it would hopefully be a drop in the bucket in total expenses.

Then there's the technical aspects, which is to say not everyone actually needs ECC. Take animation and video editing for example. That sort of software doesn't require recursion, so a flipped bit isn't catastrophic (get an odd pixel that can be fixed very quickly and easily if it's even visible to the naked eye).

Absolutely, if you don't need it don't get it. Even if its just .1%, you shouldn't spend what you don't need to. My only point is that if a faster computer or just an over all easier computer to work on is only a few hundred more than what a typical PC would be, its not hard to justify.

The big picture really depends on how work evolves relative to how computing capabilities evolve. If the computational work doesn't get more demanding at the same pace as the computers get faster, then yes, PCs will eat into workstations more and more. But that's a two headed monster, because that also means computational work being off loaded to clusters is now easier to put on a workstation. So, I think these forces balance out in general, which is what will allow for workstations to maintain moderate and steady growth that roughly matches the economy as a whole.

I also wonder if a few years in the future PCs will just be the odd man out. Either you want a laptop or you need a workstation. In effect the PC will get squeezed from both sides until its for the large part just gone. And given PC's sale figures, I'm more convinced that will happen than the workstation market will shrink.
 

Tysusmed

macrumors member
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
PC
CPU: 32/64 cores (32FP/64I but 64 threads)
RAM: 256GB
HDD: 3TB (SSD)
Video: Quadro K5000 X 2
Cost: $14450

This would be my dream OSX machine. I imagine, however, the price tag would be in the $20K range.

One can always dream though :)
 

pcd109

macrumors regular
May 1, 2010
127
57
Firstly. What features of OpenGL 4.3 would help you exactly?

And could you please point me to a single commercial application that is using OpenGL 4.3... Anything? The Windows AMD drivers don't even support it yet.

And I see you posted over at the C4D forum.. One of the developers replied in that thread. I'll quote them.


"We don't realy wait for apple here, OGL 3 was available in CINEMA 4D on Windows years befor it became available at all on OS X.
Cheers
Bjorn"


It doesn't sound like they're dragging their heels at all. It sounds like they simply don't need it yet.

There are plenty of developers that would like OpenGL 4.x on OSX. But not for the reasons you think.

Houdini FX, Maya and other applications that are available for OSX platform are all benefiting from the new rendering system and graphic libraries on OpenGL 4.3. To call your operating system 'the most advanced in the world' and be with more then one year behind with support for applications that are running on your machines, is whatever you may call it but not a move from a top class company. It's a slap in a face for your clients in the movie, tv, 3d and advertising industry. I don't know what type of work you do but i do extensive 3d stills and animations and professional cards aren't available on OSX with the latest features for more then one year. You asked for a feature in OpenGL 4.3 over the OGL3 on Apple OSX? What about hardware rendering quasi unavailable on OGL3? This is the reason why pyroFX, Houdini's super simulation system no longer works on Apple, and this for one year + just to give you one small sample. The simple truth is that Apple no longer cares about professional works-companies etc. All they care now is the casual internet surfer or maybe some office work. If you not into that target group screw your thousands of dollars invested in hardware, video cards, software, cameras etc. Apple don't give a squat about your company invested money, be it movie, tv, add, dtp, graphics or whatever. This is it. Well, i learned my lesson and i will never go back to apple no matter what. I will not spend one more penny on this pathetic firm.
 

Tesselator

macrumors 601
Jan 9, 2008
4,601
6
Japan
Houdini FX, Maya and other applications that are available for OSX platform are all benefiting from the new rendering system and graphic libraries on OpenGL 4.3. To call your operating system 'the most advanced in the world' and be with more then one year behind with support for applications that are running on your machines, is whatever you may call it but not a move from a top class company. It's a slap in a face for your clients in the movie, tv, 3d and advertising industry. I don't know what type of work you do but i do extensive 3d stills and animations and professional cards aren't available on OSX with the latest features for more then one year. You asked for a feature in OpenGL 4.3 over the OGL3 on Apple OSX? What about hardware rendering quasi unavailable on OGL3? This is the reason why pyroFX, Houdini's super simulation system no longer works on Apple, and this for one year + just to give you one small sample. The simple truth is that Apple no longer cares about professional works-companies etc. All they care now is the casual internet surfer or maybe some office work. If you not into that target group screw your thousands of dollars invested in hardware, video cards, software, cameras etc. Apple don't give a squat about your company invested money, be it movie, tv, add, dtp, graphics or whatever. This is it. Well, i learned my lesson and i will never go back to apple no matter what. I will not spend one more penny on this pathetic firm.

Watching Apple closely from 2006 until present, I can't really say as I blame you. But bootcamp and an extra $60 for Windows cures almost all of that so I'm not sure I would just throw them out like you.

I really dig very many aspects of OS X as indeed I do other Unix based systems (like Irix and others). For almost everything except CG work I prefer OS X and that includes for photography and RAW image processing too.

Personally I try really hard to avoid anything made by or that will profit, Microsoft. With the research I've done over the years there really is no better adjective to describe microsoft than "evil"! Although at the same time I have to admit that Apple too has tarnished themselves pretty badly over the past 10 years or so. Sad!

If Apple were just making another WinTel box I would totally be on board with you. But OS X is pretty cool in quite a few areas. I think I'll keep it. I still miss my Amiga tho. :(
 

zephonic

macrumors 65816
Feb 7, 2011
1,310
709
greater L.A. area
I also wonder if a few years in the future PCs will just be the odd man out. Either you want a laptop or you need a workstation. In effect the PC will get squeezed from both sides until its for the large part just gone. And given PC's sale figures, I'm more convinced that will happen than the workstation market will shrink.

That is my expectation as well.

I do not see professionals abandoning workstations altogether in favor of cluster computing and/or consumer-grade PC's.

But...

...if the consumer desktop market goes, there will be little incentive for Intel (and AMD) to continue development on desktop-class processors. I doubt the workstation market in and of itself would be sufficiently large and profitable for Intel (and AMD) to keep throwing mega-bucks at R&D.

So one possible scenario is that advances in workstation design slow down to a near-halt, with mobile processors catching up or perhaps even surpassing them in terms of performance.

Of course, there will be server-class CPU's, but I am not familiar with those, and while I see some overlap there with workstations as well, most traditional workstations (such as the MacPro or HP Z-series) typically use a Xeon variant of desktop-class processors.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the possible demise of the desktop PC could very well mean the demise of the workstation as we know it.
 

Macsonic

macrumors 68000
Sep 6, 2009
1,706
97
It's hard for me to abandon the Mac Pro workstation and sad that Apple seems to have left us loyal Mac users. I tried laptops and iMacs before but ended up going back to the Mac Pro workstation as my work was more productive with the Mac Pro.
 

Tesselator

macrumors 601
Jan 9, 2008
4,601
6
Japan
I also wonder if a few years in the future PCs will just be the odd man out. Either you want a laptop or you need a workstation. In effect the PC will get squeezed from both sides until its for the large part just gone. And given PC's sale figures, I'm more convinced that will happen than the workstation market will shrink.

That is my expectation as well.

I do not see professionals abandoning workstations altogether in favor of cluster computing and/or consumer-grade PC's.

But...

...if the consumer desktop market goes, there will be little incentive for Intel (and AMD) to continue development on desktop-class processors. I doubt the workstation market in and of itself would be sufficiently large and profitable for Intel (and AMD) to keep throwing mega-bucks at R&D.

So one possible scenario is that advances in workstation design slow down to a near-halt, with mobile processors catching up or perhaps even surpassing them in terms of performance.

Of course, there will be server-class CPU's, but I am not familiar with those, and while I see some overlap there with workstations as well, most traditional workstations (such as the MacPro or HP Z-series) typically use a Xeon variant of desktop-class processors.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the possible demise of the desktop PC could very well mean the demise of the workstation as we know it.

I think we will see a fundamental transformation in form factor over the next 5 to 10 years which will just antiquate anything in a box or that uses LCDs as we think of them today. This is to say that I don't see a transitioning of desktop and workstation users over to a different machine form. I see both kinds of machine forms changing unilaterally toward something like this:




That's of course assuming we can get the globalists to stand down, quite creating invisible enemies out of thin air, and leading the nations down a path of self destruction. So to have and enjoy something like is presented in the video above we'll have to focus on seemingly unrelated topics and energize ourselves in those areas first - or at the very least in parallel.
 
Last edited:

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
I'm not sure if that's something label as 100% of cause of these number, but it is certainly part of the picture.

Here's a release that has more long term data: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...other-sizeable-step-forward-in-q409-says-jon/

Notice Q3 '08 is at 854K units, by the time the recession was in full swing, that number dropped to around 600 units for several quarters. By Q4 '09 it was back to ~717K units.

So here's a smattering of sales figures over that last 4-5 years:

Q4 09: 717K
Q2 10: 795K
Q3 10: 850K
Q4 10: 903K
Q1 11: 860K
Q2 11: 907K
Q3 11: 1.02M
Q4 11: 998K
Q1 12: 918K
Q2 12: 883K
Q3 12: 932K
Q4 12: 934K

So, I think there is some validity to your idea of companies catching up after the recession, but it happened in Q3/Q4 2011, not today. After sliding from that post-recession catch-up. Sales have climbed back up to near record highs. Remember, the 934K mark represents about a 10% improvement to what was seen pre-recession. The Dow and S&P haven't climbed 10% from pre-recession peaks. While certainly not the best measure for comparison and kinda quick and dirty. The argument that workstation sales are outperforming the general market certainly has a leg to stand on.
There are certainly peaks and valleys involved, and the result of various causalities, such as Intel & vendor product cycles and financial cycles (quarters/half/annual), but lets examine this from a growth POV, which is what we've been discussing specifically. ;)

Lets take a look at 2012. Except for Q2, it was fairly steady. Not bad, but not really any growth to speak of (appears that immediate need issues have stabilized, so no sudden upshot in sales to fulfill overdue need).

Now consider that given the Recession's impact as well as a longer term outlook, we need to go back and get a larger chunk of data, say from 2006 up until the Recession registered in the sales figures, which would reflect pre-Recession conditions.

From JPR (I'll stick with this site since it's public and you seem to like their data :p): Workstation market experiences record quarter in Q4'07, reports Jon Peddie Research

Q3CY06 618.9 (K units)
Q4CY06 686.7
Q1CY07 694.9
Q2CY07 719.9
Q3CY07 762.6
Q4CY07 847.9​

Now if you notice, and the article's author has done the math, you'll notice a nice and steady growth rate between Q2 2006 to Q4 2007. :)

The market’s been on a roll, posting yearly returns in ’05 and ’06 of 22.1% and 21.2%, respectively.

For the year [2007], over 3 million workstations shipped, posting a gain of 20.5% over 2006.

Then the Recession hit, and scarred the crap out of everyone. Thus causing most companies to sit on their cash to wait it out and see what was going to happen (stalled hiring, if not layoffs due to reduced if any growth in the company in question, and system lifecycles were extended). So replacement system purchases and any growth that may have occurred (hiring new employees), was staggered out between 2009 & 2012 as a result of the machine age and usage in question (i.e. system that should have been replaced in 2008 at the latest, wasn't replaced until sometime in 2009, and say a machine slated for a 2009/10/11 replacement date was pushed to 2012).

So both the recession and delayed replacement systems purchase dates had a significant effect on the overall sales figures.

Where I see a major discrepancy however when looking at the data, is in the growth rates Y-o-Y before and after the Recession hit, and any recovery began. The previous 21 - 22% YoY growth rate that was occurring before the Recession has vanished (3.6% uptick for 2009, based on the link you provided).

Now consider the technical advances (i.e. elimination of FSB, ..., architecture improvements that came with Nehalem and later systems), and the overall loss of jobs (layoffs greater than any subsequent hiring in general in the sorts of fields that require workstations from what I'm seeing), it's no wonder there's not much if any genuine growth in workstation sales.

Where I see future (near future, not 10+ years), is in the ever increasing core counts (CPU & GPU), and reduced costs of high speed networking (i.e. cheaper fiber solutions, say networking capabilities added to an optical Thunderbolt interconnect), will combine further where a single employee can do the work of more than one employee based on human productivity figures from 2005/6 (whether independent workstations or on some form of cluster that's cheaper to implement). Thus less people doing more work on fewer workstations in the near future.

Please understand, I can't but help also look at both employment figures and other technologies (directly related to workstation users) when thinking about the workstation market (or other markets for that matter).

Also, think of PC sale during the same time period. Here's some idea: http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/10/technology/pc-sales/index.html

Granted that starts to bring in issues from PCs being cannibalized by tablets and laptops. But on the other hand, weren't PCs supposed to be eating into Workstations?
Don't underestimate the tablets and laptops. Desktops have been losing ground steadily due to lower cost laptops and a closer parity in performance for similar funds.

Desktops still have their market, which is in developing nations. But those figures wouldn't be reflected in JPR's data, as they're from non-US system vendors.

In my field (genomics) there has certainly been a good deal of expansion requiring purchases of workstations.
There will be a few exceptions here and there to be sure. But it's not enough to put the growth rate back to what it was in 2005/6 (bit over 20%).

Sorry, BW users? Can you clarify?
Bandwidth.

But that $100 probably represents on the order of .1% of the cost of the employee/year using the computer (and presumably the computer should last at least 3 years, right?). So, its not hard to justify from cost/benefit analysis. And if it is 1K systems, that's 1K employees. $10K for company with 1K employees isn't a huge number. Maybe if its all in single month, that could be hard to swallow from a bill paying stand point. But spread out over a year, it would hopefully be a drop in the bucket in total expenses.
A lot of smaller entities are cash strapped vs. say Fortune 500 or larger. And the smaller they are, usually the worse cash flow is, so every little bit counts, and without a proper TCO analysis, the wrong choice may be made (consumer models used instead of workstations).

For larger entities, it's more about cutting every little bit to increase the gross margin instead of their ability to purchase equipment.

If the computational work doesn't get more demanding at the same pace as the computers get faster, then yes, PCs will eat into workstations more and more. But that's a two headed monster, because that also means computational work being off loaded to clusters is now easier to put on a workstation. So, I think these forces balance out in general, which is what will allow for workstations to maintain moderate and steady growth that roughly matches the economy as a whole.
This is basically how I see it (also considering other factors mentioned, such as fewer employees working in these fields relative to the workload produced).

And although workstations can be used in clusters, rack mount systems will likely rule here due to thermal requirements, physical space, ... (same Xeon processors and so on, but the different case will cause it to be classified as a server).

I also wonder if a few years in the future PCs will just be the odd man out. Either you want a laptop or you need a workstation. In effect the PC will get squeezed from both sides until its for the large part just gone. And given PC's sale figures, I'm more convinced that will happen than the workstation market will shrink.
I don't see things going this way.

Especially when you consider the global market (i.e. China and India for example, that are still buying desktops at a far greater rate than the West), the business market continues to buy desktops (globally), and overlap.

What I mean in regard to overlap, is that Intel has continued to reduce power consumption, where it would be possible to use the same CPUID's for either a laptop or desktop, thus reducing the total CPUID's necessary to cover the various segments. So instead of high power variants for mainstream desktops and low power variants for laptops, one part would do. Thus giving them a greater economy of scale in this regard.

The high power variants, would be suitable to the high-end consumer (enthusiast) parts as well as the Xeons (servers & workstations). Just leave ECC enabled for the Xeons, and cut the traces on the enthusiast variants as they currently do.
 

zephonic

macrumors 65816
Feb 7, 2011
1,310
709
greater L.A. area
I think we will see a fundamental transformation in form factor over the next 5 to 10 years which will just antiquate anything in a box or that uses LCDs as we think of them today. This is to say that I don't see a transitioning of desktop and workstation users over to a different machine form. I see both kinds of machine forms changing unilaterally toward something like this:


YouTube: video


Yes, I agree. I just felt that would have been too far off-topic. But the keyboard/mouse/display paradigm has run its course and needs to go.
 

pcd109

macrumors regular
May 1, 2010
127
57
Watching Apple closely from 2006 until present, I can't really say as I blame you. But bootcamp and an extra $60 for Windows cures almost all of that so I'm not sure I would just throw them out like you.

I really dig very many aspects of OS X as indeed I do other Unix based systems (like Irix and others). For almost everything except CG work I prefer OS X and that includes for photography and RAW image processing too.

Personally I try really hard to avoid anything made by or that will profit, Microsoft. With the research I've done over the years there really is no better adjective to describe microsoft than "evil"! Although at the same time I have to admit that Apple too has tarnished themselves pretty badly over the past 10 years or so. Sad!

If Apple were just making another WinTel box I would totally be on board with you. But OS X is pretty cool in quite a few areas. I think I'll keep it. I still miss my Amiga tho. :(

I am moved away because i do a lot of CG. As much as i hate windows i can no longer justify the costs of Apple anymore. I mean, back in the g4 days there where power macs on sale between 1250$ and 2000$. This means about 3k in Europe, more then ok for me. Now the 2,4 12 core(/witch by the way you can't get it any longer) it's a bit over 6k!!! This is too much, even for an Apple machine. At that costs i buy a 16 core HP with a state of the art Quadro witch blows apple out of the water. But boy, you get some value for your money on the power pc days! A rock solid operating system with features added for pros all the time and that machine was build to last. Nowadays the value isn't there anymore. I mean common! 2 years to update the core OpenGL ???? And all OS updates are 'facebook integration' and God knows what not. No freaking way. I admit that i am kinda want to go back Apple but they need to pull them self's together a bit and start to add real features for pros, like OpenGL on time(there is now need for major os change to update OpenGL, they can do it on usual upgrades like .1 or so), OpenCl(that is on par with others) and support for latest tech out there. When this will be the case i will return back to Apple in a hart beat, until then long torturing days on Windows..... :)
 

handsome pete

macrumors 68000
Aug 15, 2008
1,725
259
Yes, I agree. I just felt that would have been too far off-topic. But the keyboard/mouse/display paradigm has run its course and needs to go.

Agree and disagree. A lot of work needs to be done yet on touch/voice/etc.. The tactile feedback of a mouse and keyboard make things much more efficient. Same goes for game controllers, tv remotes, etc.. Overcoming that obstacle is going to be challenging.


I would rather use a 10 year old mac than a brand new PC any day of the week.

That's stupid.
 

wallysb01

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 30, 2011
1,589
809
Q3CY06 618.9 (K units)
Q4CY06 686.7
Q1CY07 694.9
Q2CY07 719.9
Q3CY07 762.6
Q4CY07 847.9​

Now if you notice, and the article's author has done the math, you'll notice a nice and steady growth rate between Q2 2006 to Q4 2007. :)


.
.

Where I see a major discrepancy however when looking at the data, is in the growth rates Y-o-Y before and after the Recession hit, and any recovery began. The previous 21 - 22% YoY growth rate that was occurring before the Recession has vanished (3.6% uptick for 2009, based on the link you provided).

I'm getting sleepy, so I hope you don't mind me cutting some of the fat there. Everything you said there was perfectly reasonable, but his cuts to the chase. You expect to see a 21-22% growth, that's not long term sustainable. The economy as a whole hasn't grown the at fast for decades. So, how are workstations to be expected to grow faster than the economy longer term? They can't. Nothing can. Everything either hits a saturation point, evolves into something different or dies. All you can really expect is something close to the overall growth of the economy, and workstations have beat that since the end of the recession.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.