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Anybody else think that all the RAID discussions should be moved to another thread? This is, after all, supposed to be a discussion about the processors for the new MacPro.

I agree.

A more relevant tangent would be, are we going to see a true "entry level" tower with the new line up?

Something with a level of expansion but instead of borrowing technology from the iMac and "adding" expansion, PCI slots etc... it's a full on mini-tower but with un-registered RAM, half as many RAM slots, a smaller hard drive and only 1 CPU to save on cost?

That's CPU related!
 
I don't have a work order, I have funding to build a digital microscopy system. The rate at which optics and digital cameras change is slow, compared to computers, and I have ordered those parts. But I'm lothe to order the computer, knowing that even Apple can't ignore the progress that's been made in processor technology in the last year, so I can reasonably expect a major system update very soon. Given that whatever computer I buy to go with this microscope is likely to be the system I'm stuck with for several years, I don't want to start with something that's already embarrassingly out of date.

The bottom line is that I could do what I need to do with the current Mac Pro, but I could do it a lot faster with a cheaper Dell. I'd rather have a Mac, because OS X is a better environment for most of what I do, but unless Apple releases something that is competitive within the next few weeks I may have to swallow my pride and buy a Dell.

Cheers

Can you buy a gift card and use it for a computer later? talk to apple, i bet you can work something out.
 
What's the big deal about westmere?

See what going to class gets me? A lot of posts to catch up on... :D



My belief is that Intel... see, the Westmere date has stayed the same even though the Nehalem dates have been pushed back. I personally don't believe that they will be able to deliver Westmere when they originally wanted to, simply because they've pushed Nehalem back (plus recession for those that think that matters).

I'll bet the time between Nehalem and Westmere is similar to the time between Penryn and Nehalem and Woodcrest (right?) and Penryn.

Nehalem is a new chip compared to Penryn, while Westmere is simply a die shrink.
1) Why wait for Westmere - will it be that much faster than Nehalem?
2) The wait shouldn't be as long for a die shrink as for a new architecture - right?
3)If you really wanted to, couldn't you pop a Gulftown into a Gainestown Mac Pro?
 
Nehalem is a new chip compared to Penryn, while Westmere is simply a die shrink.
1) Why wait for Westmere - will it be that much faster than Nehalem?
Westere 32 nm is apparently 22% faster clock for clock than Nehalem 45 nm. And Gulftown has 6 cores while Gainestown has 4.
 
Mac Pro case redesign

How about handles that don't cut your fingers? That needs to change. But otherwise, it's a great design though I'd prefer antique bronze.

Design wise, I am unsure what they will do to change it. In my opinion the Mac Pro really falls into to area of "if it aint broke, don't fix it". It is already built like a tank, and is also easy to access for upgrades. I could maybe see Apple adding some extra HDD bays, adding Mini DisplayPort, but aside from that I am not seeing much change to the design.
 
Really buggy according to who? You? The one who has never used it before, got it. Did you actually read under which instances those faults surface?

.... Yes I read the page. I think it speaks for itself: this is not ready for major release.

I would never entrust my data to something supported haphazardly by a handful of kids in their parents' basements. Face it:ZFS may be wonderful, but as far as its Mac support it's a niche file system only fit for tinkerers, not for people with real important data to put on it.

This is the freakin file system here.. not a RAM stick or a video card or a keyboard, this is a person's livelihood. ZFS won't be "out" until Apple promises to support it, and even then, I'm sure as heck not going to use it until its known issues don't include "kernel panic."

Who said ANYTHING about booting, Sun JUST released ZFS booting in their latest Solaris release.

Oh gee, I'm sorry. You were saying that Apple doesn't need a RAID card, and to just use ZFS instead. No RAID card, no booting ZFS.... that must mean you have to have 1 of the 4 HD bays devoted just to booting.

Great, so now I have to have a whole hard drive with HFS on it just to satisfy your software limitations.

So let's get this straight here: The MP comes with 4 HD bays. I'll have a ZFS RAID 5 taking up 3 bays, and the single boot drive will have to be backed up via time machine onto the ZFS RAID 5, that's 50% of my data gone right there (1 drive for parity, and half of what's left on the RAID to back up the boot drive). I'm probably better off using Apple's software RAID0+1.

Here's an original idea: How about just include hardware RAID with every Mac Pro like I suggested in the first place? This is included with many $300 PC motherboards, and was on the Mac Pro mobo before Intel took it off and resold it to Apple.
1) No need to waste a hard drive and a bay just to boot.
2) It works in Bootcamp (my current HW RAID does, anyway)

This is just 1 suggestion of something other than processing power Apple could be upgrading (simultaneously, if you like). You seem to think the system is perfect as-is--apart from its lack of a slightly faster processor. That's your opinion though, can't I have my own?
 
Hardware RAID has the following advantages:
  • Fewer boot issues - the LUN is formed outside the OS, and all that is needed is an OS driver for the controller or interface card. This usually looks like any other SCSI card to the OS.


Didn't you read? ZFS software RAID for OS X doesn't have boot issues. It just doesn't boot! Problem solved!
 
I think the update will bring a single cpu for now, then update later in the year with a dual processor. Will have to wait and see though. My current 2.8 will be fine until 2010. By then, we will see the single cpu being 16 cores total.

Single CPU? Where did you get that idea from? I don't see any reason whatsoever why they would artificially limit it to one CPU and then later add a second... Also, you will not see 16-core Xeons for dual-processor workstations in 2010... The DP Xeon of 32nm "Sandy Bridge" (out in 2011) is supposed to be 6 cores like the Westmere version. Probably won't see a 16 core DP Xeon until 22nm "Haswell" or later. (~2013).


Talk to Intel. Tell them to release chips more often. The last one had a 518 day wait to be updated. Whose fault is that? Intel.
Intel has nothing to do with Apple retaining ancient graphics cards and not upgrading RAM, HDD, etc.

So it looks like when the Mac Pro does go to Nehalem EP processors, we could see a serious performance boost.

The Nehalem Xeon 5570 is posting SAP transaction numbers over twice as fast as the Harpertown Xeon 5450 at similar clock speeds. Now SAP database transactions are a very different kettle of fish from desktop Mac OS applications, but it does seem to point to the Nehalem EP Xeons being some serious performance monsters and the improvements just might be a bit better then the ~10% that many figured we'd see. Makes me glad I waited and I look forward to see how a Nehalem-powered Mac Pro benchmarks out. :)

I think part of the issue is that the new Quickpath and IMC architecture benefits MP systems much more than single processor systems, so many people looking at Nehalem/ i7 vs Core 2 Quad benchmarks are going to get the wrong idea of just how much of an improvement this is going to be.

The change in the MP/quad-processor server market is going to be even more dramatic considering the current Tigerton/Dunnington platform is completely starved for memory bandwidth in many applications.

Think about it.. Going from four (Core 2-based) quad-core Xeons using a legacy FSB and shared motherboard memory controller to a platform with four (Nehalem-based) CPUs that are native Octo-core and in which each have a dedicated 4-channel memory controller, 4x 6.4GBps CPU-to-CPU Quickpath links, 24MB L3, and capable of 16-thread SMT. It is going to be absolutely mind-blowing, and sadly the latest 4P Opteron platform won't stand a chance.

When serious applications are finally rewritten to full take advantage of multithreading, multiple cores and the GPU then the full weight of a hardware revision will be felt. Until that time there are few (real world) applications or scenarios that can bring a early-2008 MP to it's knees.

Granted not everyone who buys a Mac Pro needs all the power, but there are plenty of applications that can benefit from faster processors in the Mac Pro. HD Video encoding/effects, 3D rendering, Audio/Video analysis, and the simulations and calculations run in a thousand different scientific fields...

ATI = ATI Radeon HD 3870 (you can buy one here)
For Real Video professionals = AJA Video's Kona.
These were found with a simple search.

The ATI card is a gamer card, not a professional OpenGL workstation card. The other link appears to be a video capture/encoding card.


Same with me. :D I don't know of any interim resolution between 1920x1200 and 2560x1600 (except for different aspect ratios).

Unfortunately, it appears we are stuck with 1920x1200 for displays smaller than 30". I'm been fighting this battle for years, and believe we are not going to see high-DPI displays until both apple and MS make their OS interfaces completely resolution indepedent.


Nehalem is a new chip compared to Penryn, while Westmere is simply a die shrink.
1) Why wait for Westmere - will it be that much faster than Nehalem?
2) The wait shouldn't be as long for a die shrink as for a new architecture - right?
3)If you really wanted to, couldn't you pop a Gulftown into a Gainestown Mac Pro?

1) DP Westmere will have 6 cores and will be ~20% faster clock for clock.
2) At this point, it probably depends on the market more than anything, but Intel claims that they will push ahead at full speed.
3) It depends on if they change the socket/platform which is unlikely in the Xeon/server market. This will most likely be possible...
 
Going from four (Core 2-based) quad-core Xeons using a legacy FSB and shared motherboard memory controller to a platform with four (Nehalem-based) CPUs that are native Octo-core and in which each have a dedicated 4-channel memory controller, 4x 6.4GBps CPU-to-CPU Quickpath links, 24MB L3, and capable of 16-thread SMT.
It's a small NUMA box. Welcome to 1995.
2) At this point, it probably depends on the market more than anything, but Intel claims that they will push ahead at full speed.
I don't see it. Intel is already late on Nehalem because AMD isn't pushing them anymore.
 
Single CPU? Where did you get that idea from? I don't see any reason whatsoever why they would artificially limit it to one CPU and then later add a second... Also, you will not see 16-core Xeons for dual-processor workstations in 2010... The DP Xeon of 32nm "Sandy Bridge" (out in 2011) is supposed to be 6 cores like the Westmere version. Probably won't see a 16 core DP Xeon until 22nm "Haswell" or later. (~2013).
We might see 8 cores in 22 nm Ivy Bridge, given the die shrink. Haswell has 8 cores standard, I don't know if that means the initial version of Haswell (probably Bloomfield or Lynnfield successor) will have 8 cores or if most Haswell CPUs will have 8 cores or more.

Apparently there will be a variant of Sandy Bridge with 8 cores and 16 MB L3 cache. It can't be the EX version unless Intel is planning multiple EX variants, so it could be an additional EP variant (or maybe one chip for both?).

Unfortunately, it appears we are stuck with 1920x1200 for displays smaller than 30". I'm been fighting this battle for years, and believe we are not going to see high-DPI displays until both apple and MS make their OS interfaces completely resolution indepedent.
Wouldn't it be nice to have 2240x1400 as a stopgap? :( Perfect for that 28" iMac. :D
 
Who will take up the mantle for Westmere then? ;)

I was assuming that most of the G5 holdouts would buy Gainestown and a lot of the first-gen Mac Pro owners would upgrade to Westmere. One of them can handle it, I'm sure.

What?? :confused: You've been waiting for 13 years!

And I guess I'll just be waiting longer, then. :(

To say that I am disappointed is a gross understatement, but I do what I have to do first.
 
Unfortunately, it appears we are stuck with 1920x1200 for displays smaller than 30". I'm been fighting this battle for years, and believe we are not going to see high-DPI displays until both apple and MS make their OS interfaces completely resolution indepedent.

But yet, there's a good reason for this: 1920x1200 resolution is a slight superset of the 1920x1080 resolution for 1080p high definition TV, and as such it means you can use a 1920x1200 display for HDTV mastering work or playing back Blu-ray video discs at full resolution (if the display monitor includes High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) support).
 
But yet, there's a good reason for this: 1920x1200 resolution is a slight superset of the 1920x1080 resolution for 1080p high definition TV, and as such it means you can use a 1920x1200 display for HDTV mastering work or playing back Blu-ray video discs at full resolution
And a (fictional) 2240x1400 display, and a 2560x1600 display, …

I don't get why not only is there a big gap between 1920x1200 and 2560x1600, but why there are no displays (besides maybe a 21" or so laptop one) smaller than 30" that are 2560x1600.
 
And a (fictional) 2240x1400 display, and a 2560x1600 display, …

I don't get why not only is there a big gap between 1920x1200 and 2560x1600, but why there are no displays (besides maybe a 21" or so laptop one) smaller than 30" that are 2560x1600.

What about a 2560x1080 (or 1200) 28" display?
Same resolution as the new Philips CINEMA 21:9 TV, but about half the size...
philips-cinema-21-9.jpg


It would be like having two of those "old" 1280x1024 17" displays side by side with no bezel(s) in between.

For HD video work, you would have both the controls at the bottom of the screen and the palettes on one/both side(s).

For audio work, you could have that 64 tracks mixer continously on one screen, and also display longer regions without being disturbed by the bezels on dual display setups.
 
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