Mac vs Linux progress

[Stingray454]

Hi everyone! Not sure exactly where to post this, so trying in the "Windows, Linux & Others on the Mac" section even though it might not be a great fit.

Anyway, I'm using both macOS and Linux. Mac for work as it provides the software and 100% uptime I need to get work done, and Linux at home as it feels very comparable to OS X but with a lot of pro's - I won't go into details as it's not the point of the thread.

I'm following both Linux and Mac news sites, but one pattern that has emerged lately is the lack of updates on the mac side. On linux, I get news like "New super safe file system added. Support for the upcoming generation of AMD GPU's added. Fixed spectre and meltdown. Encrypted sleep images. GPU drivers performance increased by 10%. New version of GIMP is out. Support for the latest XPS / Razer / HP / Whatever laptop quirks" and so on. And this is the typical news you get in a week tops, sometimes in a day. Like, it's very enjoyable just opening a linux news site because every day there's at least a few items I go "wow, that's very useful" when reading. On macOS, there's.. Nothing.

I'm sure there IS active development on the mac, naturally. But I never hear anything about it. I'm not sure if it's a closely guarded secret from Apple or if I'm not just looking in the right places. Is there any news / rumors outlet that is detailing the actual changes to macOS (kernel and otherwise)? At the moment I'm feeling like linux is moving at 1000mph while the mac is standing still - this is probably not the case, but I'd be very curious to have the same updates for the mac.

Is the mac as stagnant as it seems, or where do I go for daily OS development news?

 

[S.B.G]

But I never hear anything about it. I'm not sure if it's a closely guarded secret from Apple

That's it right there as you've hit the nail on the head. Apple keeps their stuff locked down rather tight. They only announce what they want when they want us to know it.

On the development side really there are only a handful of Apple related sites, like MacRumors, out there with forums where you can read about what people are finding in the beta's.

I have a couple of lists on my Twitter account one is for Apple news and the other is for Linux news. All of the accounts in the Apple list are almost all cookie cutter news stories all reporting the same things at about the same time too. My Linux list is very active and diverse, as you described yourself. There is always something new and interesting to read and learn about in the Linux realm. There's just not nearly as many outlets, let alone unique ones, for the Apple realm.

 

[Stingray454]

That's it right there as you've hit the nail on the head. Apple keeps their stuff locked down rather tight. They only announce what they want when they want us to know it.

On the development side really there are only a handful of Apple related sites, like MacRumors, out there with forums where you can read about what people are finding in the beta's.

I have a couple of lists on my Twitter account one is for Apple news and the other is for Linux news. All of the accounts in the Apple list are almost all cookie cutter news stories all reporting the same things at about the same time too. My Linux list is very active and diverse, as you described yourself. There is always something new and interesting to read and learn about in the Linux realm. There's just not nearly as many outlets, let alone unique ones, for the Apple realm.

Thanks for yor reply. Even if there are not any news, it kind of confirms what I thought. The development is probably pretty equal, but in the open linux community you at least getting to know what's going on. Which I hugely appreciate. I wish Apple were more open with the fixes / patches / upgrades they are including

I'm personally aiming to move from macOS to linux completely, and the lack of updates / insight on the macOS side sure plays a part.

 

[maflynn]

I'm following both Linux and Mac news sites, but one pattern that has emerged lately is the lack of updates on the mac side. On linux, I get news like "New super safe file system added. Support for the upcoming generation of AMD GPU's added. Fixed spectre and meltdown

There's positive and negatives for both. Linux, you're dealing with code that needs to be written for the lowest common denominator and for me, applying updates can result in extra work on configuring and dealing with things not working the way I want them too. Linux has come a long way in years to minimize that but its still there. For me, do I want to spend my time googling for answers, tweaking and configuring the OS, or do I want to spend my time working.

I'm sure there IS active development on the mac, naturally.

Very much so.

But I never hear anything about it.

What are you looking to hear. Apple has defined what they will (or have done) with regard to Spectre/Meltdown
About the security content of macOS High Sierra 10.13.3, Security Update 2018-001 Sierra, and Security Update 2018-001 El Capitan

While I agree Apple is very secretive, you can sign up for the public beta of the OS, whether its macOS or iOS and they provide details of what's changing. Many of the updates 10.1x.xx updates lack specifics from apple, but sites, like MacRumors generally has information of what's being fixed. My point is the info is out there if you want to know what the update is doing.

I'm not trying to convince you that macOS is better then Linux, both platforms have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. ultimately its your choice to choose what platform works better.

 

[762999]

Thanks for yor reply. Even if there are not any news, it kind of confirms what I thought. The development is probably pretty equal, but in the open linux community you at least getting to know what's going on. Which I hugely appreciate. I wish Apple were more open with the fixes / patches / upgrades they are including

I'm personally aiming to move from macOS to linux completely, and the lack of updates / insight on the macOS side sure plays a part.

It's difficult to judge correctly. Most Linux news site cover the Linux kernel & Distributions & other softwares. For the Mac, all features related to the OS are secretely build and announced each year at the WWDC. Other fixes and security patches are delivered from time to time. The Mac also have less ground to cover since they have limited (outdated) hardware to support and Linux try to have support for everything out there. It's not because they don't release weekly news that nothing is happening. If this is your only reason, don't switch!

I work on all 3 platforms but over time, I personally enjoy the Linux philosophy more.
+ You know what you install
+ Most apps are free
+ Less crapware (like the gazillions processes that are installed when you install an Adobe application)

For me, the Mac:
- have buggy SMB implementation
- lack of customization for IOS and Mac OSX (themes, etc..)
- drop opengl for fun
- sell outdated hardware
- they force you to use iTunes when you have iOS devices. They don't care about flac files.
- they don't listen to the community

Windows:
+ overall, it's great and stable
+ they broadcast OS news and updates through their insiders program
- the only and major thing I don't like is their telemetry and their software injections. From time to time, I found games and apps automatically installed and sometime running in the background and it pisses me off! I have MS Office installed and the last OS Update, I noticed they forced install of Word Mobile. I constanly have to check my installed programs to monitor the crap they push me. I do use privacy tools and configured the software policy to block app install and telemetry but every major updates they still force things on you.

 

[BarbaricCo]

If you are not the Apple employee You just can't find the technical kind of information for Mac you can get on phoronix.

 

[boast]

Apple is just too big. If they spun off the Mac team to a separate subsidiary company, I bet they could get more employees (not stolen for the iPhone) and faster/better releases.

 

[Stingray454]

Linux has come a long way in years to minimize that but its still there. For me, do I want to spend my time googling for answers, tweaking and configuring the OS, or do I want to spend my time working.

While I agree, it has become a ton better lately. On my latest install I have hardly done any terminal work at all - OS installation was smooth, no hardware / startup / other issues that needed some special scripts or such, and all software I use is available through the repos I can access in my package manager GUI. But yes, this is the reason I still run macOS for work. I tried linux for 1-2 months at work, and while everything worked fine, there was just some time consuming issues / configurations to deal with. I think most/all of these came from running it on a macbook though, I haven't had any of the issues on my desktop so might work better on a PC laptop. Don't want to take the chance of switching quite yet though, we'll see where the MBP lines goes this year.

What are you looking to hear. Apple has defined what they will (or have done) with regard to Spectre/Meltdown
While I agree Apple is very secretive, you can sign up for the public beta of the OS, whether its macOS or iOS and they provide details of what's changing. Many of the updates 10.1x.xx updates lack specifics from apple, but sites, like MacRumors generally has information of what's being fixed. My point is the info is out there if you want to know what the update is doing.

The spectre / meltdown was just an example. My point is that I can get detailed news on OS bug fixes, driver performance changes, stability / security fixes and so on for just about everything, which I find interesting.

Also I AM a developer with an apple dev account and I'm typing this on macOS 10.14 beta 2. Maybe I'm still looking in the wrong places but the usual changeslogs are something like "Bug fixes, Finder additions, Secutiry fixes" and not much more info.

I'm not trying to convince you that macOS is better then Linux, both platforms have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. ultimately its your choice to choose what platform works better.

I know . I'm not arguing for one of the other either, both have their strengths and use cases. I just like knowing what is happening with the OS and follow the changes, but as mentioned there is no where near the open communication of linux development from Apples side. Not much you can do about that.

It's not because they don't release weekly news that nothing is happening. If this is your only reason, don't switch!

There are a ton of other reasons to switch or not to switch, so don't worry. I just had a thought that Apple is keeping changelogs very secret, and was wondering if there was any better form of news site / bug tracker / whatever to follow for some more in-depth news. But seems not.

I work on all 3 platforms but over time, I personally enjoy the Linux philosophy more.
...

For me, the Mac:
...

Windows:
+ overall, it's great and stable
+ they broadcast OS news and updates through their insiders program
- the only and major thing I don't like is their telemetry and their software injections. From time to time, I found games and apps automatically installed and sometime running in the background and it pisses me off! I have MS Office installed and the last OS Update, I noticed they forced install of Word Mobile. I constanly have to check my installed programs to monitor the crap they push me. I do use privacy tools and configured the software policy to block app install and telemetry but every major updates they still force things on you.

Pretty much my feeling too. When it comes to windows, I have more gripes than that though - just the very unintuitive OS overall (finding settings can be a nightmare, assuming the user is an idiot, a billion background processes, terrible terminal, security seems like and afterthought and so on). So while it works great to use daily with good stable software and great hardware support, for me the things you mentioned combined with the terrible experience is making it my last choice of the three at the moment.

If you are not the Apple employee You just can't find the technical kind of information for Mac you can get on phoronix.

Seems like this is the conclusion. Too bad. And speaking of, phoronix is a really good site and a good example of the in-depth news you get for Linux

Apple is just too big. If they spun off the Mac team to a separate subsidiary company, I bet they could get more employees (not stolen for the iPhone) and faster/better releases.

100% agreed. MacOS and especially the mac hardware has really stagnated, which was my first reason to look at linux in the first place. I really hope they will find a way to kickstart the mac ecosystem again before it's too late, at the moment they have dropped a lot of momentum

 

[762999]

Pretty much my feeling too. When it comes to windows, I have more gripes than that though - just the very unintuitive OS overall (finding settings can be a nightmare, assuming the user is an idiot, a billion background processes, terrible terminal, security seems like and afterthought and so on). So while it works great to use daily with good stable software and great hardware support, for me the things you mentioned combined with the terrible experience is making it my last choice of the three at the moment.

I've learn to deal with Windows since it was my day job for a while and I'm a certified MCSE and MCDBA. I don't see it as big deal now but I'm just used to it being imperfect. The thing is that with Windows 10, they knew they couldnt have changed everything overnight. A lot of the settings are spread out in different UI. Eventually, they will be consolidated.

The terminal is not that much of a problem. They still added features to cmd.exe but it's the legacy one. The main terminal should be powershell. I personnaly don't like powershell but it's a choice. When you enable developer mode in Windows 10, you can install the full Ubuntu or Suse (and maybe one other) user space and run a specific linux distro over the NT kernel. They route the linux kernel calls to the WinNT kernel and it's mostly seamless. You can run non-X related stuff, install software and run shell script. You can also replace the builtin terminal with cmder.


I normally use Manjaro linux as my daily driver. I even have some games like DeusEx installed (via Steam)

Here is the desktop picture of my 1st 4k monitor

 

[satcomer]

To me the I,d days on Linux to Mac Wars is almost over! To me is looks like Linux is bigger threat to Microsoft Server killer this day and age! In my business life Linux replaced many previous Windows Server jobs!

 

[skaertus]

Hi everyone! Not sure exactly where to post this, so trying in the "Windows, Linux & Others on the Mac" section even though it might not be a great fit.

Anyway, I'm using both macOS and Linux. Mac for work as it provides the software and 100% uptime I need to get work done, and Linux at home as it feels very comparable to OS X but with a lot of pro's - I won't go into details as it's not the point of the thread.

I'm following both Linux and Mac news sites, but one pattern that has emerged lately is the lack of updates on the mac side. On linux, I get news like "New super safe file system added. Support for the upcoming generation of AMD GPU's added. Fixed spectre and meltdown. Encrypted sleep images. GPU drivers performance increased by 10%. New version of GIMP is out. Support for the latest XPS / Razer / HP / Whatever laptop quirks" and so on. And this is the typical news you get in a week tops, sometimes in a day. Like, it's very enjoyable just opening a linux news site because every day there's at least a few items I go "wow, that's very useful" when reading. On macOS, there's.. Nothing.

I'm sure there IS active development on the mac, naturally. But I never hear anything about it. I'm not sure if it's a closely guarded secret from Apple or if I'm not just looking in the right places. Is there any news / rumors outlet that is detailing the actual changes to macOS (kernel and otherwise)? At the moment I'm feeling like linux is moving at 1000mph while the mac is standing still - this is probably not the case, but I'd be very curious to have the same updates for the mac.

Is the mac as stagnant as it seems, or where do I go for daily OS development news?

Well, Linux is open source software, you can always get the latest information about development.

macOS is developed by Apple, which may choose to share information on it or not. And Apple does not share information about the development of macOS. Why would it after all? So Microsoft could get to know what Apple is working on in advance, while not sharing its own secrets? Why give the competition the edge? No, better to keep those developments as a well-guarded secret.

Apple usually shares the development of macOS once a year, before the release of a new version. You may think macOS is stagnating. Well, it is not. It is being developed. Apple could certainly put more effort in macOS, but the priority is of course iOS.

But if you are looking at an operating system for the home user, well, there is no contest at all. macOS runs on 5-10% of computers, and Apple charges high dollar for its laptops and desktops (even though it does not charge for macOS). There is money to be spent there. Linux, on the other hand, runs on some 0.5-2% of computers. And there is fragmentation: there are lots of Linux distributions, with a different feel. And they are usually offered for free. So, there is not really a lot of money to spend on developing Linux for the desktop. Even if Apple slows down the development of macOS (which we simply have no elements to ascertain whether they are doing or not), it should evolve faster than desktop Linux.

 

[Stingray454]

macOS is developed by Apple, which may choose to share information on it or not. And Apple does not share information about the development of macOS. Why would it after all? So Microsoft could get to know what Apple is working on in advance, while not sharing its own secrets? Why give the competition the edge? No, better to keep those developments as a well-guarded secret.

Why would it be though? The "competition" would only be Windows. If Apple releases the info that the latest AMD drivers boost GPU performance by 10% and they added compatibility with the latest version of Samba for example - how would windows / microsoft benefit from that? I can't really see how this should be a secret.

Apple usually shares the development of macOS once a year, before the release of a new version. You may think macOS is stagnating. Well, it is not. It is being developed. Apple could certainly put more effort in macOS, but the priority is of course iOS.

Do they though? Even in new versions of the OS there are a few high-level points like "new file system" but no granular information at all. And the priority on iOS is kind of my point - even if the macOS market share is quite big, I'm guessing nowhere near 100% of mac sales profits go back towards developing macOS. Probably a very small share from the looks of it. This is part of why I'm wondering, the progress of macOS in the last few years have been abysmally slow compared to linux from the changes they have told us about at least.

But if you are looking at an operating system for the home user, well, there is no contest at all. macOS runs on 5-10% of computers, and Apple charges high dollar for its laptops and desktops (even though it does not charge for macOS). There is money to be spent there. Linux, on the other hand, runs on some 0.5-2% of computers. And there is fragmentation: there are lots of Linux distributions, with a different feel. And they are usually offered for free. So, there is not really a lot of money to spend on developing Linux for the desktop. Even if Apple slows down the development of macOS (which we simply have no elements to ascertain whether they are doing or not), it should evolve faster than desktop Linux.

While true, it's not all counted in dollars. The linux community have thousands of people working for little to no profit. And while there are a lot of distros they differ mostly in window managers and such while sharing 90%+ of other software, making most/all distros benefit from updated software and functionality, while Apple seems to spend 99% of its mac earnings on iOS / iPhone.

Anyway, we already determined that we won't see any updates from Apple, so this is kind of a moot point. I just wish Apple was as open, I love reading in the range of 10 exciting news articles a day of new improvements / software / ports / similar instead of all the news site pushing the same one news item once a week.

 

[skaertus]

Why would it be though? The "competition" would only be Windows. If Apple releases the info that the latest AMD drivers boost GPU performance by 10% and they added compatibility with the latest version of Samba for example - how would windows / microsoft benefit from that? I can't really see how this should be a secret.

It depends on what type of information they release to the public.

However, if Apple presentes features such as "Dark Mode", "Dynamic Desktop", "Stacks", which will be in Mojave, well in advance, it will give the chance for someone else to copy it first. It could be Microsoft, as Windows is the main competitor of macOS. Those interface features mean a lot to some consumers who are not really interested in a boost of performance.

Do they though? Even in new versions of the OS there are a few high-level points like "new file system" but no granular information at all. And the priority on iOS is kind of my point - even if the macOS market share is quite big, I'm guessing nowhere near 100% of mac sales profits go back towards developing macOS. Probably a very small share from the looks of it. This is part of why I'm wondering, the progress of macOS in the last few years have been abysmally slow compared to linux from the changes they have told us about at least.

Well, I do not have the impression that the evolution of macOS has slowed down. I am not sure. Apple certainly does not release a lot of information about it. It is a company with lots of secrets.

I am not sure how much money Apple invests in macOS. But I guess it should not be a lot. It seems to me that Microsoft invests more money in Windows than Apple in macOS (which makes kind of sense, since Windows has to run on zillions of different machines, and Microsoft actually sells its, while Apple gives it away with new computers).

While true, it's not all counted in dollars. The linux community have thousands of people working for little to no profit. And while there are a lot of distros they differ mostly in window managers and such while sharing 90%+ of other software, making most/all distros benefit from updated software and functionality, while Apple seems to spend 99% of its mac earnings on iOS / iPhone.

Well, actually, Apple does not spend its earnings. Apple is a very, very profitable company, as you probably know. Apple has some USD 260 billion in cash, which certainly does not come from spending money. Apple only does not have more cash because it was focused on buying its stock back.

Now, the iPhone is an incredibly profitable business, and more than 50% of Apple's earnings come from iPhone sales. More than 200 million iPhones are sold every year, so, yes, it is a multi-billion dólar business. One could easily say that Apple is not putting enough money in the development of the iPhone and of iOS, given the size of the business. And that well may be true.

So, it's not that Apple is transferring money from macOS development to iOS. It is not. It is sitting on a huge pile of cash, and could have enough money to spend on the development of both iOS and macOS. Apple has money to buy IBM in cash.

I have the impression that macOS development has never been very fast, and we notice this more clearly because now the updates are on a yearly basis. And Apple really seems to have a different, minimalistic approach. It only adds features when necessary.

As for Linux, I am not really following the development. I tried Linux twice. I tried it once some ten years ago or more, and once again a couple of years ago. I tried several distros, Ubuntu, Mint, openSUSE, Debian... I can't remember how many.

And all the times I tried it I felt the same. I felt Linux was falling short of Windows and macOS, at least for desktop use. It really felt amateur and not polished for me. The interfaces, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, and whatever else, all seemed bad. I had the impression that the Linux community was not really getting the point there - I saw many of them call the interface "eye candy".

I remember many of the Linux community were on fire with Compiz/Beryl, a window manager with 3D effects that could put anything available on Windows or Mac to shame. I always found Compiz/Beryl to be terrible, as the effects always got in the way of getting things done. Most people did not understand that the interface should be improved to make it more ergonomic and easy on the eyes, and not to be more beautiful or show technological prowess. Amateurs.

Other things I hear from the community is that the fact that everybody can contribute, and that there is no single decision-making source makes it more difficult to develop complex software. The concept is great, but really hard to implement.

But, again, as I said, I tried Linux some time ago. Everything may have changed over time. But. given that the Linux market share has not really improved over the course of the years, I suspect it has not.

Anyway, we already determined that we won't see any updates from Apple, so this is kind of a moot point. I just wish Apple was as open, I love reading in the range of 10 exciting news articles a day of new improvements / software / ports / similar instead of all the news site pushing the same one news item once a week.

Well, that something Apple is never going to provide. Even though it is publicly-held, Apple is one of the closest companies I have ever seen.