Mac vs. Pc: Need Some Ammo UPDATE

[IgnatiusTheKing]

I don't think anyone ever said they were going to use FrontPage. As i’m sure you know FrontPage was (it’s now been replaced with ExpressionWeb) more of a hobbyists thing, not one to make a professional site in. Most web designers I know use Dreamweaver which is available to both Mac and PC users, just because you run windows doesn't mean you have to use Microsoft software...........

My boss does our website on FrontPage. That's why I'm taking it over. I have to upgrade my software (buy Dreamweaver and Flash) so I talked them into just upgrading me to CS3 Design Premium and, since I also needed a hardware upgrade, I'm trying to get them to switch to Mac. Hence this thread.

 

[Firefly2002]

There's one thing no PC can do: Run MacOS X and MacOS X software. On the other hand, with a Mac you can also run Windows, Linux, Solaris, Free/OpenBSD, etc.

That's a joke, right? Newsflash.. if you've got an intel-based Mac, you don't have a Mac, you have an Apple PC. There are plenty of people running Mac OS X on their Dells.

Did you honestly think the Macs they're selling are special? They're standard computers, with a few tweaks, and an on-board chip that Mac OS X software checks for before it loads.

The very same DAY Leopard debuted, there was a hack out to get Mac OS X on your PC. And yes, of course it runs full speed.

I really don't feel it's fair to you to try to get your boss spend more money on something that really won't make a huge difference... a lot more money, like 3-4x what you'd pay for a PC. Get a quad-core PC.. they're very fast.

If you want to build your own, you can get a new e8400@3 GHz, and probably hit 4 GHz with stock cooling, which will smoke even your 8 core mac pro in many tasks where "only" 4 cores (or fewer) are utilized, especially in tasks which benefit from greater memory bandwidth; DDR2-800 RAM is cheap, and so is faster, DDR2-1066+, leaving you headroom for OCing.

 

[IgnatiusTheKing]

That's a joke, right? Newsflash.. if you've got an intel-based Mac, you don't have a Mac, you have an Apple PC. There are plenty of people running Mac OS X on their Dells.

Did you honestly think the Macs they're selling are special? They're standard computers, with a few tweaks, and an on-board chip that Mac OS X software checks for before it loads.

The very same DAY Leopard debuted, there was a hack out to get Mac OS X on your PC. And yes, of course it runs full speed.

My boss isn't the hacking type.

 

[sourcery]

That's a joke, right? Newsflash.. if you've got an intel-based Mac, you don't have a Mac, you have an Apple PC. There are plenty of people running Mac OS X on their Dells.

Did you honestly think the Macs they're selling are special? They're standard computers, with a few tweaks, and an on-board chip that Mac OS X software checks for before it loads.

The very same DAY Leopard debuted, there was a hack out to get Mac OS X on your PC. And yes, of course it runs full speed.

What a doofus. A "PC" is an intel box that runs Windows. If it's not running Windows, it's not a "PC." By definition.

And an Intel Mac is decidedly not an "Apple PC." It doesn't have the required BIOS. BootCamp provides a BIOS emulator, but that's not the same thing at all.

Get a clue.

 

[Firefly2002]

What a doofus. A "PC" is an intel box that runs Windows. If it's not running Windows, it's not a "PC." By definition.

And an Intel Mac is decidedly not an "Apple PC." It doesn't have the required BIOS. BootCamp provides a BIOS emulator, but that's not the same thing at all.

Get a clue.

Lol. I suppose it depends on your definition. Soon enough, PCs won't have BIOSes anymore either. Years ago, Steve would harp about how what made the Mac different was the hardware (and let's be honest, they were crazy proprietary at one point... most notably in the late eighties and early nineties). They got more and more mainstream (fine, as PCI slots, SDRAM and ATA dropped prices, and improved speeds), until they finally switched to Intel processors- which was, of course, what Mac users had noted as the key difference (other than the OS) between Macs and PCs for years, after having ridiculed the x86 architecture for the better part of two decades (and for good reason... it was basically a joke when compared alongside the 680x0 CPUs, and once the PPC601 hit, it was <i>nolo contendere</i>. MMX was a complete joke, which AltiVec absolutely made mincemeat of in '00.. and even SSE(1) couldn't really keep up.

Of course, then AMD and Intel had their MHz war, while Apple stagnated at 500 MHz due to a bug in the MPX bus... and Motorola's less-than-stellar performance.

Please don't tell me to get a clue. By any honest definition, you're running a PC. You have Xeon processors with tweaked motherboards. But basically PCs, the same thing Stevo was poking fun of just a few years ago.

All PC means is personal computer, so technically it could be said that all non-workstation non-supercomputers are PCs. However, if we're to go by the definition we ran with for a couple decades, yes, they're PCs.

Unless you're going to tell me that when I run Mac OS 8.6 via SheepShaver on my Toshiba laptop that I'm running a Mac.. or that some someone who builds a PC and then puts OS X on it has a Mac.

"Doofus?" Are you in second grade? I'm pretty sure that's the last time I heard anyone call anyone else that.

Get a clue.

As the boss issue, I was under the impression that you would be doing most of the work on the computer. It's actually not a very difficult procedure, and there are very easy to follow instructions on the sites out there. I wasn't suggesting you necessarily run OS X, only stating it was possible.

Again, my main concern is you pushing a machine on your boss that will cost him more money than he really wants to part with for something that likely won't benefit productivity any more than a new quad PC... it just seems dishonest and unfair to me, unless you truly believe it will make up for the extra cost in saved time/productivity/work quality.

That's all.

 

[sadilak]

There's one thing no PC can do: Run MacOS X and MacOS X software. On the other hand, with a Mac you can also run Windows, Linux, Solaris, Free/OpenBSD, etc.

There are some compelling advantages to running Windows as a virtual machine, as opposed to running it as the native host OS:

1. Backing up the OS is both easier and more foolproof.
2. If the VM file is kept on an external, mobile hard disk, you can literally take your work with you wherever you go, using nothing more than the external drive. Many VMs will fit on an iPod.
3. You can make dangerous system changes in a copy of your mainline VM, and just throw the VM away if things go bad. Cloning your system when and as needed is both simple, and extremely useful.
4. VMWare has a tool that will convert a natively-hosted Windows installation into a VM. So you can reanimate any current Windows systems as virtual machines.

And that's just for starters. A full essay on why running your OS as a VM is is a really good idea is available here: http://www.emulators.com/docs/nx01_intro.htm

Sourcery - The main reason why VMWare did not provide support to Mac OS is because Mac OS is tied to Intel Processors and VMWare is intended to run on both AMD and Intel Processors and any other processor. They are infact making a new version of VMWare that can host Mac OS and guess what, Windows and Linux users can download and use VMWare Server for free.

If I am a really smart IT user, I would live off Linux and use VMWare Server(both are free) , and live off the fat of the land. I essentially can have everything setup under $600 and be happy about it. Which is also why steve jobs will not allow Mac OS to be virtualized because then people are not going to buy any expensive PCs..

 

[sadilak]

What a doofus. A "PC" is an intel box that runs Windows. If it's not running Windows, it's not a "PC." By definition.

And an Intel Mac is decidedly not an "Apple PC." It doesn't have the required BIOS. BootCamp provides a BIOS emulator, but that's not the same thing at all.

Get a clue.

Sourcery - I think you need to grow up. You are not thinking about what you write. You are putting down people for no reason here.

 

[Trishul]

You dont need a Mac to create a successful website. That is a retarded statement and unless you visit malicious websites , your PC would remain virus free too!!.

i said for an amateur user such as the poster's boss they would find making a site with iweb compared to frontpage a more satisfying experience, and they would be more likely to make a better looking website, i never said you need a mac to make a successful website, because yes that would be retarded and make no sense whatsoever, i'm just talking about the basic software that usually comes included with windows and macs, and i don't think i'm the only one to find iLife to produce far better results for the average user.

 

[sadilak]

My boss does our website on FrontPage. That's why I'm taking it over. I have to upgrade my software (buy Dreamweaver and Flash) so I talked them into just upgrading me to CS3 Design Premium and, since I also needed a hardware upgrade, I'm trying to get them to switch to Mac. Hence this thread.

I just upgraded myself to Expression Web. It is actually very good. We have a mac in the office, which apparently has Expression Design pre installed( I think expression design is free if you get the office ultimate package for the mac).
Adobe software is bulky by default. It is not bad, but it is bulky. If you are going the CS3 route, make sure that you have adobe contribute. It is very handy.

 

[sadilak]

i said for an amateur user such as the poster's boss they would find making a site with iweb compared to frontpage a more satisfying experience, and they would be more likely to make a better looking website, i never said you need a mac to make a successful website, because yes that would be retarded and make no sense whatsoever, i'm just talking about the basic software that usually comes included with windows and macs, and i don't think i'm the only one to find iLife to produce far better results for the average user.

Now that is true. For the average non savvy user, Mac OS is easier to use.

But that is the very purpose of Mac OS rght. Perfect example is the Time machine app. By default, time machine backs up your entire hard drive because users are so lazy to choose the folders that they want to back up.
You are right about iLife though. I like the calendar creating thingie in ilife . And Garageband is pretty cool too. Now my Silverlight and flash apps have customized sounds )

 

[hakuryuu]

The main reason you want to get an actual Apple computer in a business/production environment is for software and hardware support.

Why anyone would recommend hacking together a Dell(or any random selection of parts) to make it run Mac OS X in an environment such as what the OP is needing it for is beyond me. It isn't legal as far as Apple is concerned and they certainly aren't going to provide support for it if you have problems. Neither would dell at that point if you did go that route unless you had a hardware situation that you could replicate in windows.

All of this "run Mac on a PC" talk is nonsense in this context. For home use yeah its cool to screw around with that and its not that hard to do. But for a business that would be the worst idea I have heard. Either get a machine to run Windows or buy a Mac Pro.

 

[ntrigue]

In a medium business a lot of money may be saved on licensing costs.

 

[hakuryuu]

In a medium business a lot of money may be saved on licensing costs.

Licensing costs are not going to be an issue with one machine, and multiple OS X licenses is cheaper than buying multiple licenses of Windows ever will be.

 

[IgnatiusTheKing]

Wow, a virtual slap-fight has erupted on my thread. Great.

Back to the point, it now looks like I'm going to be going with this setup:

Mac Pro Quad 2.8GHz Intel Xeon

One 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processor
2GB RAM (2 x 1GB) memory (800MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
320GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200 rpm hard drive

I'll probably upgrade to at least 4GB RAM soon, but my boss wants to see how it runs with 2 before spending the additional ~$200.

 

[digitalnicotine]

Very nice machine! As far as your question about where to pick up DVI cables cheaply, I check online for Walmart, BestBuy, and Officemax prices, and all of them come in over $30 each. However, at Amazon.com, you can snag them for less than half that price here. I also recommend this brand, and have used it myself with great success. Good luck.

 

[Jonny427]

Wow, a virtual slap-fight has erupted on my thread. Great.

Back to the point, it now looks like I'm going to be going with this setup:

Mac Pro Quad 2.8GHz Intel Xeon

One 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processor
2GB RAM (2 x 1GB) memory (800MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
320GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200 rpm hard drive

I'll probably upgrade to at least 4GB RAM soon, but my boss wants to see how it runs with 2 before spending the additional ~$200.

Its only about $140 shipped for 2x1GB sticks from OWC hehe

 

[Firefly2002]

The main reason you want to get an actual Apple computer in a business/production environment is for software and hardware support.

Support? In all my life I've never once needed support from any computer technician. Generally I find that problems I can't fix myself with a little effort, either aren't solvable at all, or I end up figuring it out on my own (this includes using Google! )

Anyone who's having myriad problems with OS X is doing something wrong (although I guess Leopard is still new), and probably not trying/looking hard enough.

Why anyone would recommend hacking together a Dell(or any random selection of parts) to make it run Mac OS X in an environment such as what the OP is needing it for is beyond me.

Well, it's cheaper, can be faster, and isn't that difficult. Not.. too hard to understand, right?

It isn't legal as far as Apple is concerned and they certainly aren't going to provide support for it if you have problems.

I suppose it's not legal. But you can keep it as legal as possible and buy Mac OS X instead of just torrenting it.

Neither would dell at that point if you did go that route unless you had a hardware situation that you could replicate in windows.

Right, but again with the troubleshooting. Problems that pop up generally aren't that difficult and can usually be solved more quickly by the individual themselves, or by the individual coming to a computing forum/using google than by sending it to the shop.

All of this "run Mac on a PC" talk is nonsense in this context. For home use yeah its cool to screw around with that and its not that hard to do. But for a business that would be the worst idea I have heard. Either get a machine to run Windows or buy a Mac Pro.

Perhaps for a large business, but that's not really what this sounds like. Of course, he's already settled on the Mac Pro, so the point's moot.

Mac Pro Quad 2.8GHz Intel Xeon
One 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processor
2GB RAM (2 x 1GB) memory (800MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
320GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200 rpm hard drive

I'll probably upgrade to at least 4GB RAM soon, but my boss wants to see how it runs with 2 before spending the additional ~$200.

Gah! No! Half the problem with your PC is you're running a lot of memory-intensive programs without enough memory. 2 GB is just fine if you're only running one or two of them, but all at once and you get problems. You want at least 4 GB in that setup. Actually, I'd really just recommend seeing how your PC runs with 4 GB first. But to each his (or his bosses') own. You might even want to just buy the extra 2 GB yourself.. your boss is springing for the rig, after all.

 

[IgnatiusTheKing]

Very nice machine! As far as your question about where to pick up DVI cables cheaply, I check online for Walmart, BestBuy, and Officemax prices, and all of them come in over $30 each. However, at Amazon.com, you can snag them for less than half that price here. I also recommend this brand, and have used it myself with great success. Good luck.

Excellent! Thanks for the tip.

 

[IgnatiusTheKing]

Gah! No! Half the problem with your PC is you're running a lot of memory-intensive programs without enough memory. 2 GB is just fine if you're only running one or two of them, but all at once and you get problems. You want at least 4 GB in that setup. Actually, I'd really just recommend seeing how your PC runs with 4 GB first. But to each his (or his bosses') own. You might even want to just buy the extra 2 GB yourself.. your boss is springing for the rig, after all.

I know how my boss works. He gives in little by little. Since the RAM is not coming from the same place as everything else, he's rather break up the expense (I have no idea why his mind works like this, but it does). I'll tell him I need that extra 2GB after a couple of weeks and he'll give me the company credit card and send me off to the store.

As for just upgrading the RAM in my current PC, you are entirely missing the point. I don't want to work on a PC. That's part of the reason I'm upgrading this thing in the first place.

And my boss is not paying for this machine, the company is (he's not the owner, we are a non-profit). Our budget already includes stuff like this anyway, so it's just a matter of having him divert that part of the budget to my desk.

 

[Firefly2002]

A-ha. Sorry I was unclear on that.

Fair enough with the PC, though you did complain about it bogging down, so that's what I figured was the primary concern. If you're able to economize well though, 2 GB should be workable for a bit. . . long enough till you get 4

 

[chaosbunny]

Support? In all my life I've never once needed support from any computer technician. Generally I find that problems I can't fix myself with a little effort, either aren't solvable at all, or I end up figuring it out on my own (this includes using Google! )

That's not an argument. Just because YOU know your way around computer hardware and software doesn't mean the op or everybody else knows this too.

Sadly, it's something that comes up again and again. Why do you think businesses and people who rely on their computers for work hardly use self build machines? 1. they often don't have the knowledge to do this and 2. they don't have the time to "find it out on their own".

To the op: I think even with 2 gb ram that 2,66 ghz MacPro will run circles around your current machine.